pre-chopping/whipping mechanics

[wdepner]

Hi Everybody,

It is my hope that the collective could help me answer a couple of questions about pre-chopping and whipping mechanics. They focus on whipping great wonders, as described in some of the ALC games. I'm particularly interested in the mechanics of pre-chopping, then whipping like demonstrated in ALC#7, where the Orcale is whipped, after pre-chopping and a turn of anarchy leading to the slavery civic. Could somebody please, metaphorically speaking of course, hold my hand in demonstrating this process?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4333586&postcount=139

If I have followed it correctly based on the available, the city starts the Orcale, then switches to a barrack, while the worker chops like mad. Once the civic switch has taken place, the oracle goes back to the top, before being whipped? Is this correct? For the record, I have never attempted this, although I have whipped. Still working very much on my timing, though.

Thank you in advance.

Cheers,

Wolf

 

[Quechua]

It looks like he's just doing a Oracle -> Great Engineer tactic. The turn of anarchy isn't important, he's just waited to revolt to slavery until now. He needs to be sure to get Pottery before the Oracle, so that he can grab Metal Casting.

He whips the barracks and uses the overflow for the Oracle. Wonders get a 50% penalty for whipping, so it's more efficient this way. The prechopping isn't for the Oracle city, but for a second city that will build a forge and run an engineer. The idea is to get the forge built very quickly, so that you will get an Engineer before you complete a Prophet in the Oracle city.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

A turn of anarchy can be handy because workers can chop during anarchy but you don't generate GP points.

I only pulled it off once at Epic speed where you need more GPP for the Oracle prophet, and I later realised I was Ramesses who builds forges quicker anyway!

You can't scoff at free pyramids though. Normally I just build pyramids the hard way and use the GE for the Great Library.

 

[wdepner]

Hi,

Thank you for those comments. Did he whip the Oracle as well?
Cheers,
Wolf

 

[Quechua]

^ But the turn of anarchy in this situation was before the oracle was built.

The Great Engineer is useful for an early Machinery as well. In an always war game, I used a variation of this with the Oracle and forge in the same city. I got a little lucky and did get an Engineer first (Prophets are still good for Theology, COL, Civil Service), so I grabbed the Pyramids too.

Chokonus and Pyramids in 450BC = win

Edit: no the oracle wasn't whipped but he did chop forests for it.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I dunno, it doesn't matter. The thing that is important is finishing the forge (via chopping) in time so you can run an engineer for 3 GP points (remember, you need a spare pop point to run the engineer!) that will overtake the Oracle 2 GP points by the time the first great person appears.

An industrious leader gets a forge production bonus so it is very doable then.

EDIT: Oh right, anarchy before Oracle. Well obviously you need that to whip the Oracle if you want to (or think you need to). I just pointed out a situation where you realise you can't finish all required chops in time to not beat the prophet with the forge engineer, so go for an anarchy period to stall things.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

A lot of different things happened in that round, and they aren't all related. Where the Oracle is concerned, this is basically what happened:

1. Build/Chop Oracle to within 30 raw + your 'normal' base production of completion. (30, because that's how much 1 whipped population is worth on Normal Speed. I say "raw" hammers, because any production bonuses like OR and Ind should be counted for.)
2. Build Barracks to within 1 of completion (or as close as possible so as to leave only 1 turn left to build it).
3. Put Barracks & Oracle back in the cue until [insert condition here] (in Sisiutil's case, until Pottery was complete so he could choose MC).
4. Whip Barracks. (This puts 1 into the Barracks and the rest into the next build.)
5. Build Oracle. (The overflow from the last turn's whip get applied in full to the Oracle, whereas a direct whip would result in a 50% reduced exchange rate of just 15 per population.)

The second half of his strategy was to pre-chop a Forge to run an Engineer and thus produce a GE from the Forge instead of a GP from the Oracle. It went something like this:

1. Chop a Forest to within 1 turn of completion and stop. Repeat 4 times.
2. Park a Worker on each pre-chopped forest (If plausible. Otherwise just park your Worker on one of the pre-chopped forests and wait.)
3. Discover Metal Casting.
4. In the same turn you discover MC, start building a Forge in the "pre-chopped city".
5. In the same turn you start the Forge, finish chopping the Forests x4.
6. When Forge completes (should be within 3 or 4 turns), immediately begin running an Engineer Specialist. (Since Engineers generate more than the Oracle, your Forge will make a GE before the Oracle can make a GP.)

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Right, so is that just the smart way to delay oracle completion? (I just build something else when the Oracle is 1 turn away from completion). It doesn't seem to have much to do with the forge gambit anyway since the forge is built in another city.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Right, so is that just the smart way to delay oracle completion? (I just build something else when the Oracle is 1 turn away from completion). It doesn't seem to have much to do with the forge gambit anyway since the forge is built in another city.

Yes and no.

If you can 'legitimately' build the Oracle to within 1 turn of completion before sticking it back in the queue, there's nothing at all wrong with that.

The 'trick' Sisiutil utilized allowed him to avert the -50% penalty Wonders receive when being whipped. So in a roundabout way, he the Oracle through the Barracks.

Either way, a non-Industrious leader (also a civ w/o access to Marble) commits the same number of to the builds. So, this is more of an exercise in "overflow management" than anything else.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Right, I see. I'll probably try that next time I whip a wonder. It's heavy on the micro management though... Whipping anything except a wonder is the same though I assume. Whip a building to take advantage of organised religion though, was that why a barracks was used?

 

[KMadCandy]

Right, I see. I'll probably try that next time I whip a wonder. It's heavy on the micro management though... Whipping anything except a wonder is the same though I assume. Whip a building to take advantage of organised religion though, was that why a barracks was used?

this early you won't have the option, but you know my "post it if it might help someone learn something" tendency. whipping does take advantage of the OR bonus. rush-buying does not take into account OR bonuses and even forge/factory bonuses iirc that part correctly.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I dunno monotheism is quite doable in time to whip the Oracle (especially if you delay it I suppose), it's better to change 2 civics at a time normally if you can get away with it, I find (on Epic speed anyway where 1 change = 2 turns and 2 = 3 turns? I think).

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Right, I see. I'll probably try that next time I whip a wonder. It's heavy on the micro management though... Whipping anything except a wonder is the same though I assume. Whip a building to take advantage of organised religion though, was that why a barracks was used?

In that instance, no building modifiers were taken advantage of.

It's only really possible to take advantage of the first build's production modifiers if they are unique to that building (such as an Aggressive Barracks or Spiritual Temple). Production modifiers common to both builds are more-or-less a wash and typically only make a +/- 1 difference (due to rounding).

It's the second build (especially Wonders) that gets the boost.

For example, if we whip 1 pop directly towards the Oracle (non-Ind, no Marble), we get 15 * 1.0 = 15 .

Whip the Oracle through the Barracks (w/o Ind): 29 * 1.0 = 29 .​

Watch this though:

Whip 1 pop directly to Oracle w/ Ind: 15 * 2.0 = 30 (didn't we just do that w/o Ind.!?)

Whip the Oracle through the Barracks (w/ Ind): 29 * 2.0 = 58 ​

This is truly more of an exercise in overflow management when not related to an Industrious leader or a civ with access to Marble. Give yourself Marble or an Industrious leader, and this 'exercise' quickly becomes a 'trick'!

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Right so the optimal strat is whip buildings if you have OR, barracks if you have aggressive, etc. and overflow into the wonder.

IOW: Don't whip a wonder use a building (or unit if the trait bonus doesn't matter) and overflow.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Right so the optimal strat is whip buildings if you have OR, barracks if you have aggressive, etc. and overflow into the wonder.

IOW: Don't whip a wonder use a building (or unit if the trait bonus doesn't matter) and overflow.

That's a good way to sum it up, yeah.

 

[Quechua]

Right so the optimal strat is whip buildings if you have OR, barracks if you have aggressive, etc. and overflow into the wonder.

No, I'm pretty sure the overflow is in base hammers, so it doesn't matter if you get production bonuses on the building you whip. It's only to avoid the 50% penalty (which gives you 20 hammers not 15 as stated earlier).

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Right, so units are just as good as buildings then?

 

[Quechua]

Yes, I believe so.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Well I'm a bit confused, I'll just remember not to whip wonders directly in future. Your post contradicts KMadCandy's so it can only mean one thing: A game of "Hello Kitty Best Friends' Game" face-off... BRING IT ON!!!

 

[Quechua]

Uh-oh...

Actually, I'm not contradicting KMad, I'm contradicting the Otaku