pre-WNES11: Help me out here!

Warman17 · Sep 7, 2008

Obviously WNES11 won't be called help me out here, but the purpose of this thread is to make sure my upcoming NES is player friendly.
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Overview:
The Middle Ages have advanced differently from otl thanks mostly to the fact that this NES is based on the C3C Middle Ages conquest. While not necessarily the most realistic thing to base an NES on, its a fun way to do it! Anyways read the national backgrounds for more historical info.

Nation
Government
Capital:
Dissent:
Production Capacity:
Population:
Army:
Army Quality:
Navy:
Navy Quality:

Governments:
Feudal Monarchy: The King is forced to share his power with various nobles who may undermine his authority. (-0.2 productivity, +5% dissent)

Absolute Monarchy: The King has complete control over his kingdom and everyone is subordinate to his rule. (+10% dissent)

Constitutional Monarchy: The King has decided to shed some power to grant nobles and citizens rights and power. (-0.1 productivity)

Armies:
Each consist of mixed cavalry and infantry

Feudal Banner: ~1000 men under command of a noble. Mixed bag of militia and knights. 1 PC for 2.

Mercenary Company: ~1000 men under command of a mercenary captain. Professional soldiers for hire, loyal to the coin not the crown. 1 PC for 1.

Professional Regiment: ~1000 men under command of a career military commander. Well-trained, equipped, and experienced men loyal to the crown. 2 PC for 1. (May only account for 1/5 of your total army until Professional Armies is learned)

Navy:
Early Ships: Simple ships based on ancient designs. 1 PC for 15.
Medieval Warship: A sturdier sailing vessel. 1 PC for 10.
Longship: Sturdy Viking sailing ships. 1 PC for 10. (Can only be built by Norway and Sweden)
Caravel: Well-built sailing vessel with the potential of ocean travel. 1 PC for 5.

Production Capacity:
Your economy will be known as production capacity. It is a rating which represents the total capacity of commerce, industry, and agriculture in your nation. It is mostly determined at this stage by your population, the vast majority of which are farmers. Technology, Productivity, and Government, are three modifiers that are added onto the base PC created by your Population. PC will be represented as a fraction, the numerator being the actual available PC for one turn, and the denominator as the base PC.

Cities/Population:
Cities represent not only a center of culture, commerce, and industry, but also represent the greater population of the area surrounding it.

Small City: 200,000 people
Large City: 700,000 people
Metropolis: 1 million people

Note: While a city itself may have a population of say 5,000 the remaining 195,000 surrounding it are represented by the city. If the city is captured, so is the population.

Population is important as it is directly linked to Production Capacity. Every million people provide 1 base PC from which other PC modifiers are added. Population is rounded so 1.4 = 1 and 1.5 = 2.

Cities will appear and grow on their own.

Productivity:
Productivity is another base number much like above population. It represents just how much output each individual is giving out in regards to agriculture, industry, and commerce. A nation with a productivity rating of 1 means that each million persons give 1 PC. A nation with 1.25 means each million people give 1.25 PC and so on. Basically productivity takes into account things like corruption, upkeep, infrastructure, good crops, natural resources, etc. Should a gold rush occur, productivity will go up without effecting population. Should a famine or plague occur, not only will population most likely decrease but so will productivity as fields die out and people become too sick (or nervous) to work and trade. In other words it determines if your empire is economically effective. Usually the bigger the kingdom the worse the productivity and the smaller the kingdom, the better.

Productivity effects the rounded PC base score of your population, not the population itself.

Dissent
Dissent represents the percentage of people, and more importantly nobles, who oppose the current dynastys rule. Once Dissent reaches around the 40% mark civil war is all but inevitable. However, smaller rebellions can still occur at lower dissent ratings.

Religion:
Europe at this point in time is split between three religions: Catholic Christianity, Orthodox Christianity, and Islam. Each religion is headed by an NPC who wields great political clout. The Pope, Patriarch, and Caliph each have the power to make and break kings at this point in time, and it would be unwise for even the most powerful monarch to move against them.

Catholicism: Headed by the Pope in Rome
-Norway, Sweden, Brittany, France, Castile, Germany, Holy Roman Empire, Hungarian Empire, Kingdom of Pisa, Papal State, Catholic Crusader State

Orthodoxy: Headed by the Patriarch in Constantinople
-Byzantine Empire, Bulgarian Empire, Empire of Kievan Rus, Orthodox Crusader State

Islam: Headed by the Caliph in Baghdad
-Abbasid Caliphate, Fatimid Sultanate, Cordova, Sardinian Emirate, Turkish Sultanate

Outside/Grey World
At current times I would like to keep things focused on the west (west being defined as the Christo-Islamic world west of central Asia and north of the Sahara). That is not to say an outside world doesnt exist. There is still a China, India, Mesoamerica, Africa, etc. However at this time the influence they exert on the region the game focuses on will be considered minimal. While this is obviously unrealistic, the games premise in and of itself is unrealistic being based on a civ3 game. At this point in time there is little capacity to attempt to explore and try to make contact with the outside world; this will change as technology advances. As technology begins to allow exploration the map will slowly expand to include new areas, which will most likely be represented by the below colors, but may get their own kingdoms if there is high enough demand.

As such areas not under control of one of the established kingdoms will be shown in white, grey, and dark grey. The white is an area of little inhabitance and as such little value. Expanding into such an area will not net any real positive benefits. In fact it would be most beneficial to avoid the white areas for now. The grey areas meanwhile are inhabited areas which have no central authority. Grey areas will not be easy to conquer; the people here have fought amongst themselves perhaps for centuries and are well versed in warfare. Theres a reason they have yet to be incorporated into the existing kingdoms. Finally there is the dark grey which represents the civilizations of India. Rather than adding the actual Indian kingdoms I have simply given the area a dark grey color. Considering fighting this area comparable of fighting a more advanced fellow kingdom, it would be difficult to say the least.

Technologies
High Middle Ages:
MILITARY:
Seamanship: Reintroduces sailing tradition to medieval nations. Allows construction of Medieval Warship, +1 Navy quality
Cost: 8 PC 1 PC for each large city ports you own
Being Researched By:
Completed By: Norway, Germany, Poland, Sweden, Byzantines, France, Abbasids

Improved Ship Building: There are a few good ideas floating around on how ships should be made. Allows construction of Caravel; +1 Navy quality. REQUIRES SEAMANSHIP
Cost: 10 PC 1 PC for each large city port you own
Being Researched By:
Completed By:

Polearms: Arms all infantry with more powerful weapons. +1 army quality
Cost: 1 PC for every 10 PCs worth of military you have
Being Researched By:
Completed By: Norway, Poland, Sweden, Byzantines, Kievan Rus, France, Germany, Turks, Abbasids, Catholic Crusaders, Orthodox Crusaders

Medieval Invention: Once polearms were discovered nobles began demanding other ways to increase power. REQUIRES POLEARMS.
Cost: 1 PC for every large city you own
Being Researched By:
Completed By: Norway, Poland, Germany, Turks, Abbasids, Catholic Crusaders

Improved Siegecraft: Improves fortification and siege technology. +1 army quality.
Cost: 0.5 PC for every city you own.
REQUIRES MEDIEVAL INVENTION.
Cost:
Being Researched By:
Completed By:

Professional Armies: Removes the limit of the number of professional armies allowed. REQUIRES MEDIEVAL INVENTION.
Cost: 3 PC for every 10 PCs worth of military you have
Being Researched By:
Completed By:

RELIGIOUS/GOVERNEMNT:
Theology: More advanced studies of religion.
Cost: 1 PC per large city
Being Researched By:
Completed By: Norway, Poland, Sweden, Byzantines, France, Germany, Turks, Abbasids, Catholic Crusaders

Religious Persecution: Forcibly lowers dissent in your nation. -5% dissent. REQUIRES THEOLOGY
Cost: 0.25 PC per city
Being Researched By:
Completed By: Norway, Poland, Byzantines, France, Germany, Turks, Abbasids, Catholic Crusaders

Medieval Education: Nobles began learning the secrets of knowledge that monks had held since the fall of Rome. REQUIRES THEOLOGY
Cost: 1 PC per Large City
Being Researched By:
Completed By: Poland, Germany, Turks, Abbasids, Catholic Crusaders

Divine Right: Idea that a rulers power comes from a divine source. Gives legitimacy to Absolute Monarchies
Cost: 1 PC per Large City
Being Researched By:
Completed By: Norway, Poland, Byzantines, France, Germany, Turks, Abbasids, Catholic Crusaders, Papal State

Parliament: The idea that the king should share control with a group of nobles, I mean representatives of the citizenry. Gives legitimacy to Constitutional Monarchies REQUIRES MEDIEVAL EDUCATION AND DIVINE RIGHT
Cost: 1 PC per large city
Being Researched By:
Completed By:

ECONOMIC:
The Middle Class: An increase in the number of freemen and merchants allowing further developments.
Cost: 1.5x base PC
Being Researched By:
Completed By: Norway, Poland, Byzantines, France, Germany, Turks, Abbasids, Catholic Crusaders

Milling: Developments in mechanics have allowed increase in production. + 0.1 productivity. REQUIRES MIDDLE CLASS AND MEDIEVAL INVENTION
Cost: 1.5x base PC
Being Researched By:
Completed By: Norway

Early Mercantilism: As trade developing from the middle class grew, ports and nations wanted control of trading systems. Allows the opportunity of large city trading centers to increase to Metropolis size. REQUIRES MIDDLE CLASS
Cost: Cost: 1.5x base PC 1 PC per Large City port
Being Researched By:
Norway
Completed By:

Exchequer: As trade grew monarchs found it necessary to create a more central treasury. + 0.1 productivity. REQUIRES DIVINE RIGHT AND MIDDLE CLASS
Cost: Cost: 1.5x base PC
Being Researched By:
Completed By:

Early Banking: Early loaners, crediters, and checking providers providing the foundation of modern finance. + 0.1 productivity. REQUIRES EXCHEQUER
Cost: 1.5x base PC
Being Researched By:
Completed By;

DEVELOPMENTAL:
Renaissance: Launches your nation into a great period of re-learning and innovation opening up a plethora of new technologies. REQUIRES MEDIEVAL INVENTION, MEDIEVAL EDUCATION, AND THE MIDDLE CLASS
Cost: 1.0x modified PC
Being Researched By:
Completed By:

NATIONS:
CATHOLIC:

Spoiler :

ISLAMIC:

Spoiler :

OTHODOX:

Spoiler :

MAP:

Warman17 · Sep 7, 2008

National Backgrounds:

CATHOLIC NATIONS:

Spoiler :

ISLAMIC NATIONS:

Spoiler :

Sardinian Emirate
Sardinia, Corsica, and the Balearics would fall to Islamic invasion in the 13th century thanks to the fall of Italian power. Combined efforts from the Fatimid and Cordoba were used in capturing these lands and to ensure no war broke out between the two an independent emirate was allowed to form. Sardinias weak power is only allowed to exist by the combined whim of the Fatimid and Cordoba, and the European powers who do not wish to seek war with them.

Emirate of Cordoba:
By the mid 8th century the Umayyad Caliphate had conquered most of the Iberian Peninsula. However the Umayyads would lose control of the Caliphate to the Abbasids following a civil war. The Umayyads were able to retain control of Iberia and formed the Emirate of Cordoba. Since then Cordoba has lost control of central Iberia to the Castilians and have played a minor role in the affairs of Europe at a large

Fatimid Sultanate:
The Fatimid Sultanate rose in the 9th century as a challenge to Abbasid control over North Africa. The Fatimids proved successful in conquering most of the Maghreb, but the Abbasids successfully retained control of Egypt. The Fatimids have been content simply sitting along the southern Mediterranean coast and have done little in support of the Abbasids.

Abbasid Caliphate:
The Abbasids overthrew the Umayyad Caplihate in the mid 8th century and has controlled the Mashriq, Hijaz, and Egypt since. This has been in most part due to the Caliphates focus on the west rather than uniting Persia with it. The Abbasids have been at on-again, off-again wars with the Byzantine Empire since the 13th century which was one of the secondary causes of the Turkish Crusades. While the Byzantines have successfully driven the Abbasids out of the Armenian region, the core of the Caliphate has remained untouched, and the Abbasids have continued to advance technology on-par with the best Christian kingdoms.

Turkish Sultanate:
The Turks entered the scene in the mid 9th century taking the northern route over the Caspian Sea claiming lands from the mouth of the Volga on the Caspian to the mouth of the Don on the Black Sea, destroying the Khazar kingdoms. From here the Turks then spread south across the Caucasus and farther north along the Volga and Don rivers. The power of the Turks forced the Kievan Rus to call on all of Christendom to fight off a perceived Islamic invasion of Europe using the pretext of the Turks recent persecution of Christians. The Abbasid war with Byzantines forced the Rus to call on the aid of the Pope and Bulgars, both of which obliged hoping to extend control. Thus started the Turkish Crusades in 1302. The Turks were at first able to repel the invaders, with 2 great leaders appearing in the 1330s. But the Holy Roman Empire would establish the Knights Templar in 1338 creating a constant supply of men and material to fight in the crusades. And while the core of the empire remained mostly untouched, things changed when in 1416 Murad I was killed by Bulgars and the major city of Patzinak was captured. The crusades finally ended in 1428. Kiev had long since been preoccupied with Sweden, Germany had entered war with Norway (which looked at the time to include Poland), and the Bulgars had reached their limit and could not fight alone. The Turks had lost control of over 60% of their pre-war land and population turning it from one of the top powers of Europe to second-rate. With the rest of Europes backs now turned on the crusader states and internal trouble brewing in Kiev could the Turks reclaim their former glory?

Khwarezmian Empire:
The area known in antiquity as the Persian Empire fell into the hands of various dynasties after the Sassanids were conquered by invading Arabs in the 7th century. In the 11th century it was the province of Khwarezm which gained control of the Persian legacy. Surprisingly they have held onto their empire ever since. Still the empire has fallen into stagnation and dissent has increasingly been on the rise. A new dynasty may be in order, but the empire is relatively secure from the outside world and so the current dynasty will continue to reign barring radical changes.

ORTHODOX:

Spoiler :

Byzantine Empire:
The Byzantine Empire has perhaps defied all odds and found new vigor in the middle ages. Like a phoenix the Byzantines have gone from a decaying empire to a burgeoning one over the last centuries. Peace with the Bulgars, lack of Turkish invasions, the successful wars against the Abbasids, and continued technological development has made the Byzantines among the top of European nations. The Byzantines have even gone so far as to reclaim a portion of southern Italy incase one day an emperor decides to reform a true Roman Empire.

Empire of Kievan Rus:
Kiev was an outpost of the Khazar Empire in the 8th century, however as the Khazars fell to advancing Magyar and especially Turkish attacks Kiev began exercising more and more autonomy, becoming a kingdom in its own right by the mid 9th century. Originally Kievs power lay on the lower Dnieper, but over time settlers and armies conquered more and more of Russia. By the time of the start of the Turkish Crusades Kiev had gained control of lands as far north as the Volga and Baltic. Thanks to the crusades and its war with Sweden, Kiev has become one of the strongest kingdoms in Europe. But there has been a rise of internal strife, especially from the northern fiefdoms which have become increasingly distanced from the central rule of Kiev.

Bulgarian Empire:
The Bulgars arrived in Europe perhaps as early as the 4th century, around the same time as the Huns. By the 7th century the Bulgars had established themselves along the Danube River and declared an empire. The Bulgars proved to be very powerful and almost captured Constantinople until their khan died in 813. By mid century the Bulgars had converted to Christianity and became weary friends of their Byzantine neighbors. The Bulgars proved to be a decisive addition to the Turkish Crusades by capturing Turkish cities along the Sea of Azov and being the force responsible for the death of Murad I in 1416 marking the closing chapter of the Crusade.

Orthodox Crusader State:
One of the two crusader states established after the last crusade ended against the Turks in 1428. The Orthodox Crusader State is an amalgamation of the Kievite, Bulgar, and few Byzantine crusaders who conquered the upper Volga region from the Turks. Many Turks and more ancient Bulgar people live in this region as well. Constant in-feuding plagues the kingdom. The Turkish peasants resent their new nobles, and the Bulgar crusaders turned lords dislike their Kiev related king. Only the continued support directly from Kiev has thus far kept the state together.

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some notes:

vv economically or militarily a tier below or potential to be a tier below, but currently qualifies for current tier
^^ - economically or militarily a tier above or potential to be a tier above, but currently qualifies for current tier
Great Powers:
Norway, v-HRE-v, Abbasids, Byzantines, v-Bulgaria-v, v-Kiev-v

Middle Powers:
v-Sweden-v, France, Germany, v-Hungary-v, v-Turks-v, ^-Persia-^, Fatimids

Small Powers:
Brittany, Pisa, Papal, Sardinia, Crusader States, ^-Castile-^, ^-Cordoba-^

also
Population of Europe: 63.9 million. 6.1 million less than otl Europe
Counting North Africa and mid-east its an additional 21 million

should I try to add some cities into Europe to make it more otl, or just pretend there was some random cause of this.

Warman17 · Sep 7, 2008

comments or questions?

Nuka-sama · Sep 7, 2008

Looks fun, the Abbasids look interesting

Yui108 · Sep 7, 2008

Your comparison of the Papal States to Switzerland is miserably wrong. Unless you don't count the few dozen wars they fought with medieval Tuscany...

Abaddon · Sep 7, 2008

I like it, an am interested in the Norwegian Empire.

Warman17 · Sep 7, 2008

Yui108 said:
Your comparison of the Papal States to Switzerland is miserably wrong. Unless you don't count the few dozen wars they fought with medieval Tuscany...

You do realize this is alternate history based on a civ3 game meaning theres a few nations not in the game I added.

skeptikalz! · Sep 7, 2008

Looks great man, Abbasids would definitely be epic gameplay

Lord_Iggy · Sep 8, 2008

Tempted by Cordoba (Umayyads) and the Fatimids.

Abaddon · Sep 8, 2008

It makes sense, but i am not very keen on your economic ruleset

Warman17 · Sep 8, 2008

Abaddon said:
It makes sense, but i am not very keen on your economic ruleset

Could you elaborate more? Its the economic rule I'm not too sure about. I don't know if I should keep it, tweak it, or change it completely. This is why I made a thread for feedback to edit it before actually releasing the thing.

Abaddon · Sep 8, 2008

Can you give me an example of complete stats? With that i'd be able to get my head fully around it and elaborate properly.

But at a basic level, it seems control of the "dots" is more important than any economic development you may try out. I dislike that. I prefere economies more flexible to the user.

Warman17 · Sep 8, 2008

Abaddon said:
Can you give me an example of complete stats? With that i'd be able to get my head fully around it and elaborate properly.

But at a basic level, it seems control of the "dots" is more important than any economic development you may try out. I dislike that. I prefere economies more flexible to the user.

The complete stats of every nation are in the spoilers of the first post.

I understand that, but at this time 90% of the population was agrarian and the economy revolved around keeping the crops going. Now the problem I have is the historical precedent set by urban Italy in this time period, which was very rich regardless of its low population/agricultural output. I tried correcting things like this with the productivity stat which describes your level of infrastructure, industry, commerce, bureaucracy, famine conditions, etc. The problem I have with this is it may be an oversimplification.

The other system I might use goes back to my WNESX-2 which utilized a triple system of agriculture, commerce, and industry. With agriculture and commerce responsible for science, commerce and industry for infrastructure, and industry and agriculture for culture. All three can be used for military. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=243402/ for complete ruleset. I could adapt or reject other parts of the same ruleset. As you can see I already semi-adapted the military/unit rules.

The only problem is I don't want it to feel like a rehash of my old NES, set in a new timeframe. While I suppose it doesn't make it bad it makes it feel old and not 'fresh' for me.

Abaddon · Sep 8, 2008

Why do techs cost more the larger your nation? That can't make sense!

More cost to implement, sure.. but simply to research?

Abaddon · Sep 8, 2008

oh, and whats with the bracketed number after army?

Warman17 · Sep 8, 2008

Abaddon said:
Why do techs cost more the larger your nation? That can't make sense!

More cost to implement, sure.. but simply to research?

I tried to make it so small nations can remain technologically on par with larger nations (see Belgium, Holland, Italian city states, etc), while large inefficient empires can actually cause a stagnation of technology.

oh, and whats with the bracketed number after army?

It says how much your army is worth to make things easy for the military techs that require you know how much your army is worth.

Abaddon · Sep 8, 2008

Aha ok. As is it, it seems im the only one who cares, so i'll shut up and let it run as it is.

I would prefere a word description rather than a number for Productivity.

Warman17 · Sep 8, 2008

Abaddon said:
Aha ok. As is it, it seems im the only one who cares, so i'll shut up and let it run as it is.

I would prefere a word description rather than a number for Productivity.

Well productivity is a multiplier. You can't multiply the PC by a word.

Abaddon · Sep 8, 2008

but what costs does a player experience that are effected by it? Is'nt it just your internal calculations?

Abaddon · Sep 8, 2008

Also with so many different things effecting it.. how is a player meant to know what they need to tackle to improve their nations productivity?

pre-WNES11: Help me out here!

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