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Prepare to cringe - bad maps (deity)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Fippy, Jul 5, 2019.

  1. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    So in this thread i will post starts or maps that are ouch :)
    They will all be not touched in any way, as proof i use only t0 autosaves.

    First one, Toku Isolation (will mention if they are Iso, semi or normal..helps picking)
    Spoiler :
    Looks nice at first glance, but this could change.. ;)
    Created with Buffy5, settings:
    Spoiler :

    Let's consider this one a warmup, there is certainly enuf that you can work with.
    But i liked the overall look & feel here.
     

    Attached Files:

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  2. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    We step it up, next one: Sally on fractal normal (not Iso or semi)..
    Spoiler :
    Similar settings, but rocky instead of cold and medium sealevel (i like choose relis somehow).
    This looks bad, and shouldn't get much better ~~
    Plains cow starts are very much welcome here.

    (sorry for not changing the name, you are still Toku shrug)
     

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    Last edited: Jul 5, 2019
  3. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

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    Got the unmodded saves? I just transferred to a new computer and considering how much of a pain installing BUFFY was last time (@lymond had to literally give me his copy of the game...) I'd rather not go through that hassle again. It's fine if no though.
     
  4. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    Would like to give it a try. Isolated Toku on Deity, can it be worse? Where do I get buffy from? I didn't find it on Sourceforge.
     
  5. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    There are Buffy links in all botm (game of the month section) published games :)
    Take a look, highly recommended and active anyways with all difficulties offered.

    Sorry i have no unmodded saves, Fishman.
    Maybe somebody can help with transforming them thou.
     
  6. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Buffy can be found here:

    http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mod.php

    It is really nice to have it installed so you can play GOTMs and HOF games, or SGOTMs if they ever happen again.

    I can't recall now exactly what your issue was last time you installed BUFFY, @Fish Man , but I recommend you try again.

    If not, you can always open the saves, create WB saves and play those as a scenario. Just add back in the barb techs, which Tobi actually explained nicely in his recent thread.
     
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  7. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    found it, thanks
     
  8. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    Geez, just figuring out the best way to build the WB in Tokyo is giving me a headache. Seems like it just has to be FP to S2 and slower WB though.
     
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  9. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    An iso game would be fun! River, seafood and wine! How genereous of you @Fippy
    Watching AI-survivor now though. :)
     
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  10. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T2 :

    Seeing the starting position, paired with the info that the game is posted here I knew there was a trap, settling 1W is the most sensible move, so I decided to forfeit a turn.
    Sure as mondays follows sunday, there was a trap with settling 1W. :)
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG


    Cruising up 2NW now. And now I'm likewise stuck thinking what on earth to do....
    Is this the fabled "pottery first" start?
    Going pottery->mining and getting a cottage on that floodplain and a mine on the wine looks kind of nice.
    Mining->pottery?
    Yepp, I cringe from the hard choices already. :)

    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG

     
  11. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Ok, played abit even though I'm probably way to tired. But something for others to compare with, and some of my thoughts. :)
    Spoiler T65 :

    So, settled 2NW on T2. Teched Pottery->Mining->BW->Sail->Myst->Masonry->Poly->Priest->Writing
    Felt like I had very bad production with the pottery first aproach, but I think the aproach has some merits, would be fun to see if some other aproach is clearly superior!

    Capital was pretty streched in production, and I built warriors for a long time before getting the second clam up. (It was second city which eventually whipped one for capital).
    Was worried and wanted many spawnbusters out early as I didn't know how much godforsaken tundra there was.
    Turned out that 3 warriors was enough to fogbust though.
    I was probably lucky with spawns, think there have only been one archer (and 2-3 warriors?)

    Didn't find time to get out another worker either, and not sure if thats a problem.
    Whipped lighthouse at 20-something for good overflow, but w/o granary I'm not sure it was worth it as I dropped the mined wine for quite a few turns.

    Getting GLH next turn so have some chances. Commercewise the island doesn't look all that bad. Thinking about monarchy->CoL now, because I really need the happines and the wines will be nice. And CoL because I'm not likely to get many libraries up, and caste system solves that problem. Will also save hammers on at least two monuments.

    Astro bulb feels likely.

    Haven't cleared the entire shoreline, but it looks like we will be stuck at 4 cities.
    Think settling on the rice and crabbing the clam with borderpop is nice because I have avoided agriculture. The western desert fish also requers borderpop...

    Went the poly-path toward priesthood/monarchy with the idea to possibly go aestethics, but I'm not sure thats the best choice.
    Have moved all warriors home and have roaded the copper and will try to either get a barb city spawned or possibly farm an axe to 10xp.

    Have no idea how to get production up to a meaningful level with these cities though...
    Slow-build trebs in heroic placed in capital, and draft rifles?

    Civ4ScreenShot0007.JPG

     

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  12. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Krikav
    Spoiler :
    Nice to see you playing, i believe a city 1sw of the last wine would also be worthwile.
    Gets 3 green rivers for itself, yep low food but just running some more cottages should pay.
    Forest area, chopping a granary should be nps. Can maybe borrow something from Kyoto now and then.
    Great scouting on the T2 fish trap :) Was not intended, but i am not editing in any form.
     
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  13. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    Yeah I'll be honest..

    Spoiler :
    I didn't sniff out that fish. I played 5T, and groaned with disgust when Tokyo's border pop revealed it out there. I started over... I'm probably not good enough to beat this map without wasting the fish.
     
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  14. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Fippy & @Izuul
    Spoiler :


    @Izuul no problem at all for me, I'm almost certainly not good enough to beat this map either. I'm abit interested in seeing how other openings play out differently from this pottery first that I tried out here. :)
    No matter if it's first or 100th try, great fun and good company in any case.

    @Fippy
    Yes, I thought about a city somewhere inland there the one I was looking at was 1W of the westernmost wine, but your placement 1S of that is better, another riverside.
    It does have the potential to help develop some cottages for capital, but among the cottages that I would like to have it mature are 1 plains and 2 wines, both -1F... This is adding to it's already problematic situation.
    I'm thinking that it would need at least a pair of riverside farms to get anywhere, Would have to work at least a pair of farms to grow in a reasonable pace.
    I guess it depends on the pace of the game now too, in these iso games I often find my cities without anything useful to whip or build, so stagnating on settlers is common, and when I'm nearing optics there is common for me to have a period where I do finish the settlers, but don't settle.
    Right after optics, I might settle a few more cities while boats are moving (in this period I often just run 0% research and save up gold) then at contact and techpace becomes more clear, it's usually a halt in settlement again until astro is in.
    That inland tundra river city would probably have been one of those cities settled between optics and astro.
    Also, GLH changes this alot.

    @Everyone
    Everything is turned on it's head if I go the aestethics route though.... Then those forests are worth their weight in gold.
    Have thought abit now about CoL and aestethics, and the old wisdom of "you can afford one detour but not more". Is perhaps monarchy is the only detour I can afford before optics? But if so, where will my scientists come from? I clearly want an academy but have only two cities that will get libraries. Postpone academy untill third GSci?
    Why do I think about CoL?
    Well, the western fish and northern clam is not getting libraries anytime soon, as they likely want to get monument (if not CoL), granary and lighthouse.
    Third city with library should be ready to run it's two scientists at T90 to have the third GSci out at T140. (300/6).
    So with this in mind, monarchy has highest priority, and CoL is really tempting. And then I should probably not think more about aestethics.

    How do you assess the situation in regards to tech and detours before optics?
     
  15. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Krikav
    Spoiler :
    Are you not scared about barbs, without fogbusting?
    I question GLH here, could have been so easily lost by t65 (high sea level means AIs most likely also get coastal starts)
    But even while grabbing it, you are behind in development.

    1 farm will do imo for the inland river city.
    +3 food & granary means growth now and then, and you can relax with worker turns who just build a cottage when needed.
    Growing such a city quicker has not that much value, i would rather be slower and start with commerce positive tiles.

    Wouldn't think about CoL, Rice + Clams needs no border pop and western fish is rather crappy anyways.
    Without GLH i would not settle there until Optics, with GLH you can but developing slowly is enuf so it's ready for units later with just gran + LH,
    and a crappy monument build.

    Everyone :)
    AIs will also get much less land than normal, high sea level + fractal gives tiny land maps (no spoiler, they are always like that).
    So no need to expect an extremely hard game.
     
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  16. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Fippy
    Spoiler :

    I was scared by barbs. Had the entire island fogbust but have moved warriors home with the intent of getting a barb city to spawn, or have barbs to spawn and farm an axe to lvl4.
    With the marble, I want to have good chances of getting an heroic epic early, as it's very helpful, can build most of the galleons and also pre-build alot of units.

    Possibly stupid/greedy.

    Yes, very late GLH. tbh I didn't look at map settings beyond "iso", didn't check demographics t1 to spot coastal capital density of AIs either.
    Too eager to just dive into the map, and distracted completely by choosing techpath.
    Misjudged the pace of building it too, whips where of no help since no granary up in time. And had to chop some earlier too.
    Overall, capital extremly streched early on with workboats, warriors, settler. Pottery first and not a workboat right away probably also took it's toll.

    Rice/clam city needs a borderpop where I would like it, ON the rice, as that can work two grassland cottages for capital, also avoiding agriculture.



    I'll probably try playing on abit, possibly to optics, but would be fun if more joined in too. I don't really have anything to compare with unless I replay with a different opening myself.
     
  17. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

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    @krikav I recommend giving the Toku game another shot, it's far easier than you think for several reasons. In fact all things considered it is very much a relaxing iso game, compared to say the Boudica one we tried a few months back. I'd even say it's on par difficulty-wise with the De Gaulle NC, though this start is better than that in other aspects than wonderspamming potential.

    MINOR SPOILERS ABOUT YOUR ISLAND:

    Spoiler :

    At first glance it seems pretty barren but good exploration will reveal that there is comparatively plenty of seafood to be found, though mostly second-ring. Which is not a problem if you get monuments...which isn't a detour at all if you're gunning for monarchy like you probably should! The extra fish (thank God for that) is a HUGE boon compared to the lame whales and single clam you got at the CDG map. Not to mention the health benefits too! Oh, and there's whale here as well, just in a really crappy spot that you shouldn't settle until pretty late. Dry rice is meh, but food is food and you can't look a gift horse in the mouth on settings as difficult as this. AND +2health with granary, of course.

    Spoiler :

    20190706022027_1.jpg


    ~As a side note, I work at a place serving grilled salmon and every time I settle fish I now just imagine my citizens feasting on that for 4000 years. Yum!!!


    MODERATE SPOILERS ABOUT THE STATE OF THE WORLD UP TO ABOUT T100:

    Spoiler :

    It is 300BC and FIVE, yes you read that right, FIVE great generals have been born. It seems extremely likely on the other continent(s) pretty much everyone is trying to beat each other to death with axes and swords, with little to no trading going on. Additionally, as @Fippy mentioned, high sea level means everyone gets less land. And as we observed in the CDG game, less land hurts the AI far more than it does the human player. Additionally, look at this GNP screen:

    Spoiler :

    20190706015919_1.jpg


    Even taking into account culture and espionage, I'm not really that far behind first place, despite the seemingly lackluster start. I've wager with theacademy my beaker rate could be in top 3 or 4, and likely to stay that way as I get harbors to grow bigger and then bulb astro.


    SOME SPOILERS ABOUT MY APPROACH/STRATEGY

    Spoiler :

    AGG is sooo helpful in iso. I took 3 barb archer fights I would've lost without it, not least of all because I could get cover 1 promo in. Besides that, build order in cap: WB, WB, worker, warrior, settler. Seems slow, right? You would think, but I got my 2nd city up and running only t39, which isn't too shabby considering a seafood start with no 3h tile. The clams really sped up worker + settler production, AND research to the point where I could get BW and chop 2 forests to speed up my 1st city.

    The biggest gambit I pulled off was marble-less Oracle. Necessarily marble-less because the SW fish city is a deathtrap, to be settled yes but last; absolutely no forests or 2+ food tiles in BFC means monument + border pop is 25-35 turns, at least - and then not to mention the quarry and road time. But grassland copper is a super-strong tile, and with a bit of chopping I pulled it off. I Oracled monarchy, not MC, because it gave by far the most immediate benefit: happiness, and wine. Now wine gets a bad rep, but it's actually now one of my preferred luxuries on isolation, besides of course the mining ones. This is because it synergizes with monarchy + HR, meaning just one detour for a lot of happiness and actually a pretty sick tile yield (2f4c1h...that's, like, slapping a combination of a workshop and 3 cottages on a single grass tile, WHILE giving 1 happy). Plus, FREE MONARCHY saves at least 15 turns of teching. I got it 1440BC, which would never be a date you'd get monarchy normally.

    It's now 250BC and I finished compass, started on machinery. If I could somehow get horses, an intercontinental cuir sweep like I did in my Hannibal game could very well be within reach.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2019
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  18. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

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    Spoiler :

    t128 optics, t139 astro. Messed up diplo somewhat by trading with Hammurabi, BUT I've already gotten mostly what I can get from them all. Hopefully once I pay them a visit soon with cuirs or cannons :D. Or Christianity spreads to me and we become best buds again.

    Spoiler :

    20190706034124_1.jpg

    Spoiler :

    20190706034508_1.jpg
     
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  19. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler :

    I ignored advice and went for CoL right after monarchy. Turned out I got the religion too.
    Got a GMerchant as my first GPerson, which I settled, an academy would have been so much better...

    @Fish Man
    Feel like I'm awful late to the party if you had optics at T129 and T139 Astro as I'm at optics at T139. :)
    Oh well, I guess that is what you get for building GLH instead of settlers early on and going for CoL.

    I did get an axe to 10XP and I do have GLH though, so not completely lost.
    Settled Nara and Nagoshima this turn.
    Civ4ScreenShot0016.JPG

     

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  20. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T253 ... :


    I'm kind of guessing that this map would be easier if you do things right, but at least I'm still alive. :)

    Had major problems when I met the AIs, as I had my own religion they tended to dislike me, so diplo was problematic and trades scarse.
    Saladin made Isabella his vassal some time around T150, not nice. :(

    Did get to Steel eventually, was planning on hitting Monty but both him and Shaka was plotting so my cannons+samurais just stod there and waited for ages waiting for some of them to move. Somewhere after T200 WvO had enough of Hammy and declared on him. He asked me to join, I did but on my way there I realized that it would be way more profitable backstabbing WvO instead. :)
    I got physics sometime around here and had airships too, they where really nice!

    I did so, and took his cities and made him vassal with his ofshore islands.

    Then all out of the blue Shaka declared on me! Apparantly the plotting was aimed for me all along, I took heavy causalties and would likely have lost Nijmigen, but lovely Wilhelm ran a "Stop fighting" AP miracle.
    As reward (and help to push away Shakas culture) I gave him that city. :)

    Continued whipping but with WvOs pyramids now and then took out Hammy.
    The turn Akkad fell my economy improved dramatically. I had been paying 63GPT in upkeep for DurKurzingu alone as that is a colony... But Akkad had Versaies.
    I also made sure I had a settler ready to settle that spearhead city to have a quick access into Saladins heartland later if I need it.
    Civ4ScreenShot0033.JPG

    Civ4ScreenShot0034.JPG

    No sign of Saladin going culture, so I still have some time!
    Civ4ScreenShot0035.JPG

    Thanks to the lovely airships I took relatively few losses event though I fighted cannons+grenadiers+rifles with cannons+rifles+samurai.
    Going into the fight earlier I had a few muskets promoted with pinch to take grenadier fights.
    Civ4ScreenShot0036.JPG

    I don't think it's possible to win diplo here, right? Saladin is likely to build UN and if I'm up against him Isabella will vote for him. And even if I conquer all of Shaka/Montys cities I don't think that would be enough.

    Bribed Shaka against Monty recently (Gave him Lib/Astro iirc) to get them to start trading units.
    Should be a cakewalk to roll over them once artilery is in.

    But I'll have to gear up and tech to get some weapon that will bite against Saladin too...

    Enjoying the map!
     

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    Last edited: Jul 7, 2019
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