Preserve District

chazzycat

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Oct 13, 2010
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Gotta say as a primarily peaceful-builder type player, I really love the addition of the preserve district. It has improved the game flavor for me drastically, especially when roleplaying as environmentalist Maori or something along those lines. However due to the terrain restrictions and the fact that it's not very good until you get the 2nd building from Conservation...it still seems very niche...not really great in most typical scenarios.

But I feel like they could be improved with a couple minor tweaks and would make them a lot more useful even to more "generic" civs:

1) Don't remove forests to place the district. it's very odd that in order to preserve a forest, you chop it down and replace it with a "preserve". It would make a lot more sense, thematically, if there was some exception to the "district removes features" rule for preserves to keep the forest intact. Also, when you chop the trees this has a negative affect on appeal of surrounding tiles - hence making the preserve appeal-neutral in many cases instead of appeal-plus, which doesn't seem right.

2) Let them be included in national parks. Again I understand the rules about no districts in national parks, but it just doesn't make that much sense. A preserve as the thematically "natural district" should have an exception to the rule and allowed to be included in national parks. They are already pretty difficult to build with all the restrictions, and this would help make them a little more viable.

Thanks for listening. I wouldn't be surprised if these are hard coded in some way and not possible, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to throw out there.
 
Yeah, I don't think it's as useful as I thought it would be in the trailer, mostly due to the large amount of investment required. I mostly just use it to put next to natural wonders that I can't build on anyway, like Pantanal, Chocolate Hills etc.
 
I generally like them, but echoing what others have said, their benefits are rather limited. I was able to use them to boost the Mapuche's Chamamulls, which was fun. They can be used to open up a few seaside resorts. But I find National Parks to be a difficult thing to want to prioritize, since they themselves aren't super beneficial. So positioning Preserves and other districts in such a way as to leave mountainous triangles just doesn't jive well in my mind, as it often results in ignoring optimal Campus placement or similar.
 
Considering Vietnam has it to where their specialty districts still keep the features, I was surprised to see that the Preserve didn't do this. I'm sure that could be coded in at least since it's part of a civ ability already.
 
I like these suggestions. I also really like the concept of the districts, but unless I'm going out of my way to incorporate it into a game (like with Bull Moose or the Inca), I've found that I'll go through several games without ever building it. Other than with those special civs/leaders, I generally only build it when I have an amazing spot that isn't much use for anything else (like a giant grove of trees on flat land).
 
Considering Vietnam has it to where their specialty districts still keep the features, I was surprised to see that the Preserve didn't do this. I'm sure that could be coded in at least since it's part of a civ ability already.
There's also a mod that allows you to place districts on forests, it was out way before Vietnam DLC was released, so maybe look into code of that to see what it does and if this can be applied to one district type only.
 
I’ve mostly found them useful for starts near a lot of Tundra. The 3 food/2culture makes for a great growth tile in an otherwise hard to grow area.

Especially if you’re playing a war monger or for whatever reason struggle with culture. One or two decent preserves can shoot you up the civics tree.
 
In the right circumstances, preserves can still be good before conservation imo. The lack of production hurts, but a well placed preserve can inject a lot of culture and faith into your economy at a time of the game where you need it the most.

I'm actually glad we got a more situational district rather than a powerful spammable one. I think your proposed changes are fine, but I don't think it will make them any less situational than they already are.
 
In the right circumstances, preserves can still be good before conservation imo. The lack of production hurts, but a well placed preserve can inject a lot of culture and faith into your economy at a time of the game where you need it the most.

I'm actually glad we got a more situational district rather than a powerful spammable one. I think your proposed changes are fine, but I don't think it will make them any less situational than they already are.
That's very fair. I am also ok with them being situational, maybe I should have phrased things a bit differently. Not looking to make them OP. Just slightly more applicable in a few more situations here & there I guess.
 
1) Don't remove forests to place the district. it's very odd that in order to preserve a forest, you chop it down and replace it with a "preserve". It would make a lot more sense, thematically, if there was some exception to the "district removes features" rule for preserves to keep the forest intact. Also, when you chop the trees this has a negative affect on appeal of surrounding tiles - hence making the preserve appeal-neutral in many cases instead of appeal-plus, which doesn't seem right.
Yeah I agree, I'd bet this was an oversight and the intention was for them to not remove woods that they were on. This seems all the more evident as preserves and Vietnam were released in the same pack; it seems the conversation at the Civilization office went such as, "Oh, you're working on Vietnam who can only place districts on certain features - Did you figure out how to code so that placing the district won't remove the feature? Great, then we'll go ahead with this preserve district idea because it would be silly if a district themed around environmental preservation would call for chopping down the woods or rainforests to place them." And then they got caught up in the development and hype of the new civilization and features and forgot to code that in. #Facepalm.

2) Let them be included in national parks. Again I understand the rules about no districts in national parks, but it just doesn't make that much sense. A preserve as the thematically "natural district" should have an exception to the rule and allowed to be included in national parks. They are already pretty difficult to build with all the restrictions, and this would help make them a little more viable.
That's a little much, I'd rather not see that. My argument against this would be two-fold:

First, I disagree that they're not very good until you get the 2nd building from Conservation, and that they seems very niche and not really great in most typical scenarios. I'd agree that they're suboptimal (but still good) in many game instances, but that's a good thing - the game already has several options that are universally applicably always a great choice, and I'd rather not have more of these to add to the rinse/repeat feeling of the game. But I feel that preserves are already leaning too far in that direction. Even before the advent of preserves, I found that developing an ancient era faith economy, mostly from acquiring the Earth Goddess pantheon and possibly supplemented by holy sites and other methods, and then the ease of getting a classical era golden age (huts and barb camps pepper in some era score, one or two well-placed districts, meet some civs, maybe a wonder, beelining to first goverment and so on will usually get you there, and then there's a few Hail-Mary options like wiping out a neighbor or sniping a medieval tech with few prerequisites to be first to medieval) and follow that up with a classical era Monumentality golden age to faith buy a bunch of settlers was already an OP strategy. Now you add preserves to this, and the tiles that are around it that are breathtaking generating 4 faith (2 from the preserve and 2 from Earth Goddess) really sends this into overdrive, and that's pretty powerful even before considering the extra food and culture the tiles generate. While it is a lot easier to get most or all of the preserve's surrounding tiles to breathtaking appeal after preexisting woods get an extra appeal and the ability to plant woods, there are still several early game options to do so. The effect of doing this is strong enough that I'll often disregard adjacency bonuses of theater squares and holy sites as well as placing entertainment districts and, to a limited extent, wonders in favor of maximizing their effect on appeal and with preserve tiles as a higher priority. This can let you generate all the cities you need to win the game without ever building more than one or maybe two settlers or ever capturing a city. Then all those cities make preserves, some with juicy overlap tiles, conservation both enables you to finish getting breathtaking appeal on all six tiles of all preserves, and each city has a district that provides bonus food and production, more faith than a holy site, more culture than a theater square, as much gold as a commercial hub or harbor, and as much science as a campus (well... maybe not the last two but close.) While none of this has to anything to do with a preserve tile itself being able to incorporated into a national park (that's addressed more in the second point), it does speak to how they are already quite potent, maybe not OP but that's a good thing, and don''t require buffing. I don't think they're overpowered because there is a drawback: they take up a district slot and don't generate any great people points. I find that using this strategy of preserve as first or second district in most or all cities gets me to first place in all categories very early on Immortal and even Deity, but I'm making significantly less great people points than I usually got in games before the preserve came around. It does offer other tangential benefits as well, such as when using this strategy (either for peaceful or domination games) I'm more and more often building the GMC instead of the IA in my government district as spies are successful enough without the bonus (though it's always nice having one more) in order to faith-buy an army to deter anyone from every DoWing, or to conquer the world easily.

Second, ever since national parks sort of got buffed by reducing their cost by 66% (1800 down to 600), I've been using them more in non-tourism victory games (which I'll finally be able to play tourism again once they fix the monopoly tourism problem *sigh*) and am finding that even without the tourism benefits they're still very good, mostly because of the amenities. I could have sworn that at one time it was 1 amenity to the parent city and 1 amenity to each of the four closest cities and now there's an extra amenity in the parent city but that's not really relevant. It means that if there are five cities in a cluster and each has a national park, each city will get 2 amenities from it's own NP and 4 amenities from the other cities NPs, which is 6 amenities per city, obviously incredibly powerful and a gateway to ICS. The drawback to doing so is that every city that has a national park has 4 tiles that can't be improved, so you have to choose between the extra yields or the extra amenities (unless you're the Maori.) Now with the preserves, there is the stipulation of the preserve that it can't be adjacent to the city center meaning that all preserves are usually placed two tiles away if you want all of the affected tiles to be within the city's radius of workable tiles. Factoring National Parks in, as the 4 tile diamond needs to be within a single city's borders, you can't have a national park completely enveloped in a Preserve, but you can still have 2 out of the 4 tiles of the national park be the corner tiles of the preserve meaning that you get the preserve's bonus yields in half of the tiles of the National Park, halving the opportunity cost. But if you were able to have the preserve tile itself be included in the national park, this would allow you to have one National Park completely enveloped in the preserve on the west or east side, and a second National park occupying 2 out of the 3 remaining preserve tiles. This would lead to the strategy of having 2 National Parks per city one of which has 3 out of 4 tiles get the preserve's bonus yields and 1 dead tile, and the other National Park having 2 tiles get the preserve's bonus yields and only two unimprovable tiles, all while essentially getting 12 amenities per city, which is too much IMO.
 
As people were debating the Inca in the "Civs that love preserves" thread and I hadn't considered them I gave it a go. All the mountains were volcanoes so the appeal thing was never going to work, but the one tiny corner of my empire with the Matterhorn and a preserve made me so happy.

I wanted to build paradise and built a hellscape, with one really idyllic corner.
 
That's a little much, I'd rather not see that. My argument against this would be two-fold...
this is very solid feedback. I don't generally go for religion myself so I hadn't really thought much about the faith side and it's impact. I also tend not to build many national parks but maybe that's because I don't have any faith...anyways, you raise some good points for sure, and I would be totally fine with only implementing 1 of my 2 suggestions if national parks are really strong already.
 
this is very solid feedback. I don't generally go for religion myself so I hadn't really thought much about the faith side and it's impact. I also tend not to build many national parks but maybe that's because I don't have any faith...anyways, you raise some good points for sure, and I would be totally fine with only implementing 1 of my 2 suggestions if national parks are really strong already.
Yeah, from the beginning I was never really into founding religions either; the forums factored in to this preference as they dove deep into the opportunity cost of building early holy sites (or Stonehenge) when you could have an additional settler, a more potent district, or some units. But as time went on, the religious beliefs got better, faith generation became accessible in so many different ways instead of being predominately through holy sites, and the stuff you could do with faith became more diverse and effective. For a short time, I approached most of my games trying to develop a strong faith economy without founding a religion, and preserves are a powerful tool to do so, and now I'm trying (often failing) to get a religion in every game because why not; even if you're going to use your faith to get Nihangs instead of spreading to cities, even your own, you can still get a couple bonus points in the capital. Placing holy sites (and the other two districts and wonders) as a method of increasing appeal to surrounding tiles early in lieu of getting the adjacency bonus to the holy site is working quite well for me, and note that HS get an adjacency bonus from being adjacent to 2/4/6 woods tiles, so you can get some adjacency while boosting some woods tiles from charming the breathtaking. For me this also settles the dispute of whether to place a campus or holy site in the perfect mountain location, helping everything to kind of come together.

As for the point that could be construed as National Parks are OP... maybe? I think they're fine as they are. Though like I said the one drawback that they had was that it forced you to sacrifice the extra yields of improvements in 4 tiles (often unworkable mountains anyway) to get the amenities and tourism, and now with preserves you can get comparable or better yields than the improvements provide on half the tiles anyway. And I think they either increased the bonus percentage of happy/ecstatic city status or we just all caught on at the same time when they increased the threshold of achieving them, and with finite numbers of luxuries and other methods of generating amenities, National Parks in tandem with having every city be "covered" by the AoE effects of both Entertainment and Water park districts provides a great way of having practically an unlimited number of cities, all at substantial population and all still getting the bonus of being ecstatic.

Another quick tip that even the pros on YT seem to often overlook is that tiles controlled by your cities in their 4th and 5th ring that are not in another city's territory (otherwise useless tiles) can still have woods planted in them to increase appeal and still have national parks placed in them for the amenities and tourism. Also while National parks can't be placed on coastal tiles, natural wonders that we all consider to be in the water (Galapagos, Ha Long Bay, Great Barrier Reef)can be tiles of a national park if the remaining tiles of the diamond are not coastal.
 
I agree totally about chopping. I was a bit shocked when I built a preserve and got the warning about removing jungle. Isn't that the point? To preserve the jungle? Silly.
 
Preserves are one of the best parts of NFP imo. I agree with the removing of a feature seems odd. I'll add, if the feature provides negative appeal, make it appeal neutral at the very least. That way planting on jungles or marshes wont hurt you.

On a minor note, it somewhat annoys me that other than brazil, you always chop rainforest then replant woods for the appeal boost. Perhaps after a certain mid to late game tech/civic, they stop being negative appeal and act like woods.
 
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The point of Preserves is to use them where you wouldn't use improvements anyways such as tundra/desert. This will usually involve Natural Wonders or the terrain wonders.
 
I do like the new district but rarely see cause to build more than one pre-Conservation, and that is with Reyna and Forest Management promotion (this is apart from any natural wonder which might provide a decent site without Reyna). It is important to note that Reyna's ability affects the appeal of all unimproved passable features, including marsh, floodplains, geothermal fissures, oases, passable wonders themselves, and ley lines. Add to this the +1 appeal of the Preserve on adjacent unimproved tiles and suddenly any landscape that isn't featureless can become breathtaking.

Oh, and Babylon loves the preserve as well, at least in a Reyna city. With a Grove and a Pulgum you can turn food-starved plains hills in the mountains into Inca-like yields, plus the culture and faith. All you need is a river and a few woods. Not that Babylon needs that kind of help....

I have some screenshots of both Teddy and Kupe getting Groves up beside the Chocolate hills by late Classical, it's quite interesting. I think I'll make a thread in Strategy and Tips on this.
 
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