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President Abe (Us, not Japan)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by RedRalph, Sep 10, 2007.

  1. RedRalph

    RedRalph Deity

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    I'm not expert on US history (especially not on anythign pre-20th century), but I was always of the opinion that Abe Lincoln was generally understood to be the greatest US Prez ever. why is he only in the game on its 2nd XP?


    That should read US, not Us
     
  2. tomaalimosh

    tomaalimosh Warlord

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    Well... Washington got the independence, and gave the name of the capital :)

    and Roosevelt won WWII (almost won... didn't live to see it)

    So... I guess these were considered better than abolishing salvery... :)

    BTW ... how can Lincoln switch to slavery ... it's... revolting ... :lol:
     
  3. RedRalph

    RedRalph Deity

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    I think the Red Army may have had a hand in that too!

    US posters: Is he generally considered to be the best president?
     
  4. obliterate

    obliterate Warrior Monk

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    He didn't. The soldiers did.
     
  5. CivDude86

    CivDude86 King

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    John Wilkes Booth didn't think he was so great.
     
  6. tomaalimosh

    tomaalimosh Warlord

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    Soldiers don't win wars.

    This particular war (WWII) was won because:
    1. GB not sueing for peace
    2. Germany attacking USSR
    3. Pearl Harbour
     
  7. RedRalph

    RedRalph Deity

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    What a bizarre statement...
     
  8. tomaalimosh

    tomaalimosh Warlord

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    They don't. They just fight them.
    And they occasionally win battles.
     
  9. sabo

    sabo My Ancestors were Vikings

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    No, you are correct Red. He IS considered one of the most liked and best Presidents. He wrote the emancipation proclimation and he held the country together by not allowing the south to succeed, why Firaxis almost ignored him? You're guess is as good as mine.
     
  10. Gaius Octavius

    Gaius Octavius Deity

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    Yes, but as always, it depends on who you ask.

    I suspect the reason he only made it into the second XP was that we has in every single game before, and people were just plain sick of it. Firaxis wanted to show off new people and new features, like Washington and Roosevelt.
     
  11. graves_09

    graves_09 Fighter Ace

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    You can't give away all the best features in the first release otherwise there would be no way to make money off the two expansion packs :p
     
  12. slobberinbear

    slobberinbear Ursine Skald

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    The South was trying to secede (break away) from the Union, but did not succeed in seceding. Glad we got that straight. :p

    Lincoln's game traits are appropriate -- he was both philosophical and charismatic IRL. He kept his country lawyer common sense and strong commitment to principles all the way to the end. Lincoln was, in every way, the right man for the job during the most arduous part of our history. He is most famous for leading the North/Union in the U.S. Civil war and in issuing the Emancipation Proclamation. While the U.K. had already abolished slavery, abolition was a much thornier issue in the U.S. due to the slave-based agrarian economy (primarily in the South) that had been in place for centuries. Put another way, slavery was much more entrenched in everyday American life than it had ever been on the British homeland. Whereas slavery is a bit of a historical afterthought in most modern countries today, it is still very much a tortured part of the American psyche. Lincoln's social foresight and willingness to take on this seminal, unpopular issue was simply stunning.

    Not that he was a saint. He is the only U.S. president to have formally suspended the writ of habeus corpus, a cornerstone of law which prevents being imprisoned without trial.* He was roundly hated in the South and amongst immigrants for U.S. Army draft policies (see the movie "Gangs of New York" for more on that).

    But the Union held.

    I agree with the previous posters who noted that Abe was in all the other civ versions and that Firaxis just wanted to try someone different for a change.

    * insert scathing current U.S. political commentary here
     
  13. Halt

    Halt Warlord

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    Washington is considered the "greates" because he was the first person in recorded history (yes there maybe others but not wih such wide ranging impact) that "Voluntarily" gave up his power at the end of a war and then again after two terms in office as President. It was the act of giving up power which helped to established “Democracies” which was a continuation of the “Age of Enlightenment” started in Europe. Without Washington’s action there would be no Democracy, America, or Europe as we know it.

    “Early in the French revolution one man was held responsible in large measure for saving the republican revolution, Napoleon. Yet in the end that same man betrayed that revolution by becoming an Emperor. When all had been taken from him—now imprisoned on the isle of Elba—Napoleon said: "They wanted me to be another Washington."

    “When George III heard that Washington was thinking of not running for a third term—he had been unopposed for the first two—he said that if Washington went back to his farm after his public career he would be "the greatest character of the age."


    Roosevelt is considered the greatest president of the 20th century for leading the USA out of the Great Depression “The only thing to fear is fear itself” and leading the country with a steady hand during WWII.

    Lincoln is considered by many to be the 2nd or 3rd greatest president by his accomplishment of preserving the union. While abolishing slavery is what we look at today as his accomplishment, it was his decision to wage war upon the Confederate States to keep the USA one country which wins him that honor.


    Just some quick info on American History.
     
  14. sansloi37

    sansloi37 Chieftain

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    Just a quick note for the Americans out there (which I am BTW) : George Washington was not the first President - he was the first after the Constitution was ratified, 13 years after the Declaration of Independence. Amazingly, the US education system skips over the first Presidents of the Continental Congress/Articles of Confederation (about 17 total...).
     
  15. RedRalph

    RedRalph Deity

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    that my friend, is absolutely laughable. the idea that one man can be solely responsible for one huge country and another continent is ridiculous.

    Explain to me how Washington is responsible for Europe existing as it does today?
     
  16. RedRalph

    RedRalph Deity

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    Hmm... I did not know that. good stuff
     
  17. bovinespy

    bovinespy Prince

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    This pretty much sums up my view of Washington's greatness, as well. I'd personally rank him #1 and Lincoln #2. Lincoln was certainly great for holding the country together, but without a Washington setting the precedent of peacefully and voluntarily relinquishing power, there never would have been a Lincoln (or if there had been, he would probably be remembered as a "great tyrant" as there would have been no compelling political reasons for him to even bother attempting to ratchet back the scale of power centralization that occurred during the Civil War).

    And there was one precedent for Washington: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnatus.
     
  18. SlipperyJim

    SlipperyJim Prince

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    Too true. Too true....

    My own list of Great US Presidents goes about like this:
    1. Lincoln
    2. Washington
    3. Reagan
    4. Jefferson
    5. FDR
    However, among most Americans, I believe that placing Lincoln and Washington somewhere in the Top Three (or so) is nearly unanimous. They were both legendary figures, and most Americans have a great deal of respect for them. I'm also sure that one of the main reasons for Lincoln's and Washington's amazing popularity is that they were both so long ago that their politics are not controversial today. As slobberinbear noted, Lincoln did a lot of things during his tenure that were exceedingly controversial. If he were alive today, the ACLU would have a daily picket outside his house.... ;)

    Frankly, I was a bit surprised to see FDR in the original Civ4. He's a much more controversial figure than either Lincoln or Washington. His "New Deal" was a lot like socialism, and many Americans (including me) aren't very fond of socialism. However, FDR was an able leader during WW2, and I think he should get a lot of credit for that.
     
  19. GeneralMatt

    GeneralMatt Emperor

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    Even though it may have "seemed" easier in the IK, they were losing a lot economically abolishing slavery.
    There was the slave trade for one. Then even though in the UK proper there wasn't a tremendous need for slavery, places like India and especially South Africa used slaves a lot and that was one of the main reasons behind the Boer wars (The Boers didn't want to get rid of there slaves even with compensation), albeit they were in the late1800's-early 1900's.

    It wasn't wasn't to put through by parliament (took some time) but it was one instance where the British Empire used it's influence to better the people of the world. (Though a lot of people now look at it as arrogance, I do not, when in a position to help, it is always good to.)
     
  20. sansloi37

    sansloi37 Chieftain

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