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President Abe (Us, not Japan)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by RedRalph, Sep 10, 2007.

  1. Slobadog

    Slobadog King

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    We must not forget all the great contributions Poland made to WW2. From cracking the Enigma to helping to save the British skies to inventing new tank periscopes. While overrun from day one their government and military were still in action at Germany's surrender. Argubably Churchill could presevere because of their brave example. All the more reason why poland should be in civ i guess. HRE wasn't even good enough to last till WW2.
     
  2. obliterate

    obliterate Warrior Monk

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    Who win the rest off the battles then? A self-firing gun?
     
  3. bonafide11

    bonafide11 Worker

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    The first game I played of BTS, Lincoln was my neighbor and it cracked me up as soon as I saw "Lincoln adopts slavery." :lol:
     
  4. bonafide11

    bonafide11 Worker

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    I can't tell if you're joking or not, but it's not really funny either way...
     
  5. tomaalimosh

    tomaalimosh Warlord

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    The enemy.

    (can't win 'em all)

    Wars however, are won by making the most of the battles that have been won, while minimalizing the effects of those that have been lost.
    And THAT is not done by soldiers.

    I mean... surely... any good civ player should know that...
     
  6. Figaro

    Figaro Tywysog

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    Lincoln was in Civ2 and Civ3. I suppose they wanted to include some different presidents.
     
  7. RedRalph

    RedRalph Deity

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    I'm trying to catch-all here:

    I am not saying the USSR alone won WW2. I'm not claiming no one-else contributed to the victory in Europe. I'm not claiming Hitler didnt make mistakes. I am claiming the T-34 was a better tank precisely because it could be produced in huge numbers, ease of production is a factor in any tank, any country could build a one off tank that could destroy any other, what use is it if you cant build them in decent quantities?

    The US, UK, French resistance, etc etc all assisted, helped with supplies, etc. I just dont see how, morally or logically, you can give credit for the defeat of the Nazis in Europe to the nations that supplied trucks over the Nation that actually did 90% of the fighting, sustained c.75 of the losses inflicted by the Nazis, took the Nazi capital and killed c.85% of the Nazis that died in the war. Its an absolute nonsense. Its like giving credit to a sportsshoe manufacturer over the player, or giving credit to a movie camera manufactuerer over a director (both cases relating to US supply of trucks). It makes no sense and its driven by national pride and a distorted view of history.

    Nice ot have the debate though, at least it hasnt turned into flaming
     
  8. Ambs-Ace

    Ambs-Ace Chieftain

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    It's really really late here, so forgive the glowing nature of this post. Also, I would like to categorically state that this post is NOT about the U.S. as a whole, but merely about one great man born within its bounds.

    That being said, I consider FDR to be one of the great leaders of all time. Many people give him a lot of credit for ending WWII (at least here in the States), which I think is in many ways overstated, but his economic and social policies were where he stands out. His economics helped the U.S. not only recover from the Depression, but brought us out running, not limping. (On a side note, the U.S. has a lot of gall for calling ours "The Great Depression" when its European counterpart was considerably worse in every measure. "It's no rose garden over here either," but y'all got hit especially hard.) His "New Deal" was a landmark of creative government intervention on behalf of its people. Also, though he was wheelchair-bound for his entire political career, he stood as a strong and steadfast icon of leadership through some very dark times.

    Ideologically, he attempted to retain hold on the isolationist principles under which the U.S. had flourished, and which were still very popular. When Pearl Harbor occurred, it was the first time when he could reconcile the interest of the world with the will of the people he had been chosen to represent. I have tremendous respect for any person who strives to find satisfaction for competing obligations, rather than give in to the temptation to yield one to the other.

    This combination of competent peace-time and effective war-time policies, along with a strong ideological background is one rarely seen throughout history, and we have been incredibly lucky to have seen his like at all, much less when he was most needed.

    I'm not saying that Abe should take the backseat, but that in many ways FDR is at least as strong a choice for an American leader as Mr. Lincoln. Seeing him in the game was a pleasant surprise indeed.
     
  9. onedreamer

    onedreamer Dragon

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    Sorry man, but it takes more than "just manpower". It takes people willing to give their life, and I believe that except Japan none could compete vs USSR in this.
     
  10. Thalatta

    Thalatta Imperialistic

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    I'm going to jump in and call this idealistic, rather than stupid or ignorant as a lot of gun control lobbyists might do. It's still wrong, though; a deregulated world full of guns is a world with a lot more graveyards.

    You see, some people are downright clumsy or unwise, a few are depressed and lonely and a handful are unkind and impolite no matter what. Given the historical context, your talented son and the average colonial are actually pretty comparable in terms of probable deaths caused: A musket isn't exactly effective for criminal purposes like our modern guns, and the odds of your son or a colonial accidentally shooting themselves or someone else are probably pretty similar since ineptitude with a musket would translate into not shooting anyone.

    However, the common firearm now is no longer the musket. The firearm death rate in the US is the highest in the world (about half is suicide), anywhere from just slightly more than Brazil, Estonia and Mexico to 3 times that of Canada, 10 times that of Germany and 30 times that of England to 220 times that of Japan.
     
  11. Jperkinson

    Jperkinson Warlord

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    I don't disagree. I think a lot of 'impolite' people may end up in the ground fast... I don't really have a problem with that.

    It's not really apples to apples here, is it? Of course, a country that allows private gun ownership is going to have a higher firearm death rates than those that heavily regulate it. Isn't the UK infamous for it's knife crime?

    Funny, I thought the US soldiers were US citizens.... It doesn't matter that the US soldiers have much more training. Using your 'magic hat' statistics, even if the odds are 1:20, the psychological effect of private US citizens standing up the enlisted US citizens... even if only to get slaughtered, is enough to break resolve. But this is near irrelevant, since the 2nd amendment prevents this kind of escalation... It's not about Citizens vs. the Army. It's about individuals not taking $hit from their government. And the government not giving $hit to it's people for fear of reprisal.

    What is "Laughable" is your admission to how powerless you really are.

    Any proof to back that statement up?
     
  12. Ahimsadharma

    Ahimsadharma Warlord

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    If you require proof that the weapons industry is the single biggest industry in GNP terms for US of A, you arn't aware of the US economic 'pie-chart' I suggest you pick up an economics journal sometime.

    Ok you are making zero sense now. First you say that owning guns by public prevents the govt. from taking a dictatorial stance towards its people and thats the shabang about the US.
    Well how is the govt. going to take a dictatorial stance and get away with it ? Only by mobilizing the military.
    Otherwise, if it can't mobilize the military to face your so-called citizen militia, then its not guns that is stopping your dictatorial takeover but whatever the process that prevents mobilizing the military against its own people- which is purely sociological & constitutional in nature (and have nothing to do with/without owning guns).

    And if you speak of the psychological impact on US soldiers firing upon US citizens, trust me, it would work 1000x better if the US citizens showed up unarmed.
    This is called Gandhi-ism, tried tested and true. You make it a helluva lot difficult for a soldier to shoot his own countryman when his countryman isnt even armed and just standing there.

    Then you do a twist again and say 'but it doesnt matter, its about individuals not taking sh!t from the government'- so basically you are promoting hooliganism and saying that each time a citizen has a problem with the government, it should take up guns and blow/shoot some stuff up.
    Again that is rather ******** and a reflection of a dysfunctional society than a sane one.

    And as for being 'powerless', maybe because i have fired guns before and i know several ex-military personel, but i can assure you- if your government wanted you dead, you'd be dead from a single shot and it wouldn't matter squat if you owned a 100 guns and went to the range thrice a week. Besides, as far as 'power' goes to me- i have a technical degree in applied science- i can find a job in practically any part of the world that can speak English in the office (which would then include most of western europe & east asia amongst other places) in under 3 months. So basically, all i need is 3 month's living expenses in the bank & a VISA. And then i'd be infinitely better equipped to deal with the crisis than your lil John Wayne dude- since i will be outta there in a jiffy when $hit really hits the fan and mob rule rules the country. I find that kind of 'power' to be far reliable a bet than being the gun-toting cowboy for dealing with troubled times and i am sure many here will agree as much.

    But then again, American mainstream culture is given to promoting the 'cowboy gun-toting pickup truck driving burger-eating joe' image. Besides, i've lived in far rougher scenarios than you probably have ( lived straight through a riot and communal violence killing hundreds in the city) and i didn't feel the requirement for a gun- the imperetive to hide/stay indoors & away from troubled areas was far bigger on the list and far more sane.
    So i don't think you are making any sense whatsoever.
    Owning a gun might give you a false psychological comfort but fact is, it hardly serves as any sort of protection, except maybe other gun-toting hooligans breaking into your home/store. But that problem wouldn't exist in the first place if guns were a damn sight harder to get hold of.
    The stats do not lie, US gun related crimes are astronomically higher in proportion than most other western nations and that is simply because of its ******** gun-culture.
     
  13. Ahimsadharma

    Ahimsadharma Warlord

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    This is false and circular reasoning.
    US overall crime rate per capita is one of the highest, if not THE highest in the western world and a large part of it is because of guns ( and in gun-related crimes, its astronomically higher than most western nations).
    Think about it for a second- guns are a great equilizer amongst the citizenry(ie, we are not talking about shooting a military dude here, we are talking about break-ins & shootings/jacking up a store etc). You just point and shoot. And the target is almost always caught unawares/with no weapon so is deadmeat.
    With knives or bats, there is an element of you can still get owned by the one you are attacking since it involves getting within close proximity of your victim.
    This is why societies with stupidly relaxed gun-laws (like the US) have far far higher crime rate in general than societies with tighter gun laws- not everybody who is shooting people in the US will switch over to a knife or other means if they didn't have access to guns. There are lots of punks who'd shoot you form across the street but wouldn't pick a knife-fight/fist-fight with you if you look tough.
     
  14. Jperkinson

    Jperkinson Warlord

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    Now there's a good counter argument... Show me where you read that the 'Weapons industry' is the "single biggest industry in GNP"?

    You can't. I don't know where you get your 'facts'... but unless you can back them up, I suggest you stop throwing out ridiculous accusations...

    US DoD budget was about 4% GDP.... Heath services is around 15%.


    I was going to continue to respond to your other comments... but it just seems futile to try and rationalize with your post, when you are obviously struggling to come up with any kind of tangible argument.
    ..............................................................
    The rest of the forum probably doesn't want us to 'flame out'... so let's agree to drop it.... before we both get thrown out of here. :mischief:
    ..............................................................

    This has gone too far off topic... If you could only pick two US leaders... who would they be? Mine are Washington and Jefferson.
     
  15. Duuk

    Duuk Doom-Sayer Supporter

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    If the Russian soldier was so willing to die for his country, why on earth was there a commissar corps?
     
  16. RedRalph

    RedRalph Deity

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    The commisars were taken off frontline military duty by 42 and reduced to giving political speeches and morale advice in barrcks. you really think the commisars could have forced all those millions of soldiers to fight as hard as they did? to quote Ned Flanders, sounds like youre straining to do some explainin
     
  17. sansloi37

    sansloi37 Chieftain

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    Hi Pericles, sorry I wasn't clearer in my post. The second quote (Machiavelli) was mainly in reference to an action Lincoln took to preserve the Union, namely the suspension of Habeas Corpus.

    As for the Emancipation Proclamation, he held off on issuing it until he felt there was no other choice. He was a pragmatist throughout his Presidency and took the step of violating the US Constitution in order to save it...the essence of "the ends justifies the means."

    And to go even further off-topic, I have always found it ironic that Robert E. Lee (the leading Confederate General) had manumitted his own slaves years before the Civil War started. For him the war was truly about States Rights, not slavery...
     
  18. Halt

    Halt Warlord

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    T-34 Was a better tank than any other tank in WWII.

    Why?

    Because unlike the Supposedly "better" German tank's... The T-34 worked. Yes, some German tanks had bigger guns, better armor, faster etc.. but their treads would fall off, guns jam, engine malfunction.. etc... It is the difference between a theoretical battlefield and the real world. I choose the tank that works.
     
  19. RedRalph

    RedRalph Deity

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    Also the introduction of sloped armour was a huge improvement. the first time Germans attacked T-34s their shells bounced off, literally
     
  20. Halt

    Halt Warlord

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    The 2nd Amendment discussion is boarding on the surreal.

    The NRA uses the 2nd Amendment to protect the right all Americans have to keep and bare arms. But the 2nd Amendment is not about the rights of Americans to own firearms.

    It is about the rights of Americans as individuals to retain the means to provide an armed resistance to a potentially tyrannical government. I know this sounds alien to non-US citizens and to some less well read US- Citizens and modern warfare can be assumed to potentially render this Amendment practically unworkable. But the point is not what we think of it today, it is what were the writers of the constitution thinking. They had established that the Government both State and Federal were responsible for both Civil and Foreign threats (Whiskey Rebellion one of the earliest tests of a Civil threat). The 2nd Amendment was thought of as a reasonable step to make a clear statement that the power of the Government was secondary and responsible to the Governed.

    In the 16th 17th and 18th century they saw that words alone would not safe guard this right, therefore they enshrined within the Constitution these affirmative rights.
     

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