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President Abe (Us, not Japan)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by RedRalph, Sep 10, 2007.

  1. ShunNakamura

    ShunNakamura Warlord

    Joined:
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    235

    Jperkinson are you really so dense? There goal of building codes is not to limit your rights but to protect the rights[and property] of others.

    Just a quick story. In our little village the village council ordered a particular tree on our street to be removed. I don't recall if the village payed for the removal completely or not, but I do know that there was some form of compensation. The village ordered this not to show how they could push citizens around but because the tree was a hazard to others. Not only has the tree taken down the power lines countless times in storms[branches and all that]; in just a small wind a large branch broke off and smashed a neighbors car. After the tree was removed it was revealed, as the council thought, that the tree was rotten to the point that it was hollow inside. The next big storm could have toppled the tree right on top of someone's house.

    The same thing is with building codes. If your house is poorly wired it could catch fire. If it catches fire you ARE not the only one that is going to pay for it by all likelihood.

    This is how a government has to work. You[nor anyone else] has any right to harm another person. The government is there to make sure you[and no one else] harms other people. The only realistic way for the government to do this is to try and regulate such things that could harm others[after all, we all know how well flat bans work...].
     
  2. Jperkinson

    Jperkinson Warlord

    Joined:
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    100
    -Not bothering to proof your math...

    A whole 9 billion dollars?! Wow. The GDP is 13 Trillion dollars. That makes it about 0.07%. Note: I can tell you are going to have trouble here. That is NOT seven percent. it is one seventh of a single percent of the GDP.

    Thanks for the link... But it's not germane to your argument.

    *yawn*

    using the high end of your numbers: (9 + 95 + 600+ 25)*1.6 = 1.16 Trillion... or about 11 percent.

    Still Far short of the 15 percent human services... or agriculture... or services.

    And back to reality.....

    So, you quoted me one website... that has an approximation from 1994... that you extrapolate to today's dollars... which leads to 0.07%. This is what you quote for me...

    Then you 'throw in' all kinds of other numbers, approximations, and (I loved this one) 'invisible' subsidies. :goodjob:

    I've given up talking to you. I think it would be best if you continue thinking the way you do about Americans, then maybe you won't come to visit.

    So...We all eat bullets for breakfast, use handguns for forks, Gunpowder for pepper, and shoot the TV to change the channel. In fact, I just broke my leg, so I'm using some shotguns lashed together as crutches. For work, most of us work at the colt plant, but the rest of us till the fields with our rifles, trying to harvest this years crop of bullets.

    By the way, my computer isn't really a computer, it's a Colt .45
    :mischief:
     
  3. Jperkinson

    Jperkinson Warlord

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    You really shouldn't start a conversation by calling someone 'dense'.

    I never said I had any kind of right to harm anyone else.

    Was the government necessary for that tree to be removed? It wasn't clear from your story, but let's say it was on someone's private yard. If that tree fell and killed someone, and the owner new it to be rotten and a danger. The owner is libel for the death.

    Therefore it is in the homeowners best interests to make sure his tree's aren't rotten. I fail to see why you think the proper solution is to have everyone pay money to the government to form a committee to elect a contractor 'tree inspector' to go door to door inspecting trees.

    Bureaucracy in action.

    I am not the one to pay for my house's fire damages? who do you think pays for it? If it burns, and I didn't have insurance, thats tough.

    Again, I fail to see why the government needs to step in.

    Even if you're argument is that my house may burn and catch SOMEONE ELSES house on fire. I am still Libel, and hopefully he had insurance. If not, it's his tough luck.

    Why is it that people WANT to live in a nanny state?
     
  4. Ahimsadharma

    Ahimsadharma Warlord

    Joined:
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    I find such blatant falsehoods and twistings not only childish but very annoying.
    Perhaps you didn't bother your hands at math because you suck at it, not to mention, despite my initial correction, you are still dishonest enough to not see my point that i made the comment in relation to the entire weapons industry in the US- which includes arms sales to yokels like you, DoD, Foreign defence purchases AND law-enforcement purchases, not to mention, ammo.
    So yet again you keep trying to childishly harp on the 9 billion dollar figure.

    Perhaps you should not try to teach mathematics/arithmetic to an engineer.

    No, this is not what i quoted you.

    okay, so not the biggest sector- but one of the top 3 industries. And the largest manufacturing industry of the US of A. My point still stands- such a huge industry has extensive reasons to spread propaganda and idiotic logic as a means of promotion campaigns, since it is a capitalist industry at the bottomline.

    Because me exposing the flaw in your 'guns protect us from despotism' nonsense didn't go down too well ?
    I thought as much.
    But since you've given up talking reason , i too will cease.
     
  5. Halt

    Halt Warlord

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    I am not sure of the point Jperkinson was raising... But building codes have been used for both good and ill... There are many true stories of well meaning public officials changing the building codes in order to provide an excuse for what we call in the US “eminent domain”. Whereby again the well meaning public officials forcibly acquire private property for public purpose, mostly for roads or commerce (business use).

    This is not a argument in favor of no regulation, instead it is a commentary on what is usually meant by the abuse of regulation. The key aspect of such regulation needs to be safety and welfare of the community. Stretching welfare to include seizing property even with fair compensation for use by “strip malls” is a reasonable debate to have. Arguing that regulation is always good or always bad is not a reasonable conversation.
     
  6. Ahimsadharma

    Ahimsadharma Warlord

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    Because once you stop thinking with your gonads and start thinking with your brains, nanny-states make far more sense when used sensibly.
     
  7. Jperkinson

    Jperkinson Warlord

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    To be honest... I'm not even sure of the point I was raising anymore... :lol:

    At some point in the way back, I stated that I thought Lincoln was undeserving of being a 'great US president' and shouldn't have been included in Civ IV. Then I got sucked into all kinds of other discussions.:rolleyes:

    But I think I'm done it.
    :king:
     
  8. Halt

    Halt Warlord

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    As always we will bring the thread to be about Poland :crazyeye:

    Can we also show the USSR carving up Poland with Germany after signing an alliance?

    Can we show USSR killing helpless Polish POW's?

    Can we show the USSR shipping vast numbers of Polish peoples out of their country?

    Can we then show the appeasement of Hitler by Stalin for several years before he was attacked... which if he was not he would be happy to have remained an ally of Hitler's.

    Most US movies show the USSR as an ally in the war and almost never talk about the reasons they got into the war or their behavior prior to the being attacked.

    This is not to say the USA, Brittan, France, etc… were innocent of their own abuses, I do think however on balance the films showing US victories when they do mention the USSR almost always mention them in a positive light as allies.
     
  9. Halt

    Halt Warlord

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    Lincoln should be considered a great President for the same reason Andrew Jackson and Teddy should be considered such. They accomplished great things which left a positive measurable impact upon the US that without their personal “willpower” the US would be less than it is today.

    This is also true for Churchill who single handily won WWII:mischief:
     
  10. bovinespy

    bovinespy Prince

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    That's good advice.


    :rolleyes:
     
  11. bovinespy

    bovinespy Prince

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    Please to explain?
     
  12. ShunNakamura

    ShunNakamura Warlord

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    Note: I am almost completely against eminent domain.

    Building codes are completely separate from eminent domain. Building codes regulate against unsafe conditions. Whereas eminent domain takes away property from civilians.

    And I never did say that all regulation was good. I said that a form of regulation is the 'correct' way to go for ensuring public safety.


    The property owner in question did not want the tree removed.

    So a persons death is worth a mere pentenance. I see.

    The moral thing to do is to prevent death/harm when possible. Government regulation allows this to be done.


    Because for the most part here people don't give a god damn about possible future consequence. You must realize not everyone is responsible.

    I would much rather not be killed by an easily avoidable accident.


    Let me list the damage to others. Some are more likely/dangerous/costly than others.
    A) Possible spread of fire.
    B) Spread of soot and ash.
    C) Possible cost of life depending on exact details[what if your daughter/son/wife/husband had friends over and all got cooked? for example]
    D) Firefighters will be called in and may end up blocking off the road causing traffic costs.
    E) The burning of chemicals stored in your house could easily release and spread dangerous chemical gasses.

    And particularly the spread of fire is a serious one. I don't think you realize quite how much damage that can cause, you seem to be focuses on the cost of what is burned down. The costs can go MUCH deeper than that.



    Anyways the point is being 'libel' for lose of life after the life is lost is pointless. No monetary response or any other kind of response can make up for it. If a simple regulation of having to meet certain safety standards helps to prevent that that is more than worthwhile.
     
  13. Halt

    Halt Warlord

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  14. sansloi37

    sansloi37 Chieftain

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    Location:
    Portland OR
    Halt : You seem to be adept at refraining from starting a flame-war...thank you very much!

    Everyone else : I am a Liberal, pro-States-rights, military veteran (from the North...yes, I'm a Yankee)...something of a contradiction to most people, I understand. I am proud of my service (three terms...not a quick in-and-out), proud of my country, and not so nationalistic as to not recognize others' points of view...or their right to have them. I own a handgun, and believe that the right to bear arms is intrinsic in the Bill of Rights (regardless of modern military capability.) At the same time, having also been a police officer (in Virginia) I agree with a little "common-sense" regulation. You need to prove basic operating skills to drive an automobile, why not to possess a firearm? I received my first rifle when I was 5 years old, my first handgun (an old, beautiful .22 single-shot) when I was 7...and I was taught well on the responsibilities of owning weapons. My 7 year old daughter is receiving the same instruction. But not everyone "deserves" a gun; those not able to show common-sense, for one.

    And please, please, get over the "who did more to win WWII." Many nations helped, fought, and died together to prevent the Nazi/Imperial Japan takeover. I have lost comrades in arms, including many from other nations...have you? Regardless of nationality, we all fought for the same ideal. Don't tarnish those sacrifices with self-indulgent rhetoric. Please.
     
  15. Venger

    Venger Give it a tumble, sport

    Joined:
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    Wow, this thread is filled with gobsmacking amounts of clinical retardation and ill-informed nincompoopery...

    One person in particular *cough* *Ahimsadharma* *cough* can't stop spewing anti-American pap, and not just in this thread, all over the site.

    For those interested, American gun rights extend from the very core concepts that informed the creation of our ruling documents. Namely, every man has a right to liberty, and to property, and that he retains his right to defend both against any man or group who would try and take either. This common law consideration is embodied in the 2nd Amendment, or the Bill of Rights, intended to enumerate rights some were afraid may be later dispensed with by a strong central government. Through codification, it could not be claimed that these rights were possessed by anyone other than the people (and their representatives at the state level).

    Oh, and anyone so inane as to believe there are 50-60 billion US Dollars in ammunition sales each year in the United States is certifiably ignorant (off by only a factor, of well, about 50). The ATF has a web site. Use it. The numbers being thrown around this thread are preposterous. As is the rhetoric. Someone has some insecurities...

    Venger
     
  16. meatwad4289

    meatwad4289 Prince

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    595
    Damn I shoulda jumped o nthis topic earlier lol I was lookin at posts I wanted to respond to, and then i noticed it was 8 pages long.. so i stopped on the first page lol

    As with all leaders it depends on who you ask. But he does tend to make the top 10, and most of the time the top3. I feel Theodore Roosevelt was the best. And I do not include Lincoln on my top 20 list.

    You're some what correct.
    The President in the Articles of Confederation, and of the Continental Congress, although had the title of President, were not Executive Branch nor Commander-in-Chief, as a matter of fact, Washington was the Commander-in-Chief. So you are correct he wasn't the first, but you are also wrong. He was the only Commander-in-Chief(of America). John Hancock, DID want to be the Commander-in-Chief and assumed that since he was President (Of the Continental Congress) he would of had the job, but he didn't get it..

    Anyway to be short. They were Presidents of Congress, not Presidents of the United States... Courtesy of the US education system...Learned that stuff in the 3rd grade :) lol

    There were many instances where in which, If Washington wasn't involved it would of been defeat. However, He didn't do it himself, but if he wasn't involved then I'm pretty sure we'd have the queen on our money. I forgot but I think the guy you were quoting was saying something more or less along the lines that thered be no america, and thered be no democracy. I believe what he is talking about is either the French Revolution, inwhich they over threw the King after soldiers came back from helping America and spread the ideas of Democracy. Eventually that helped spread democracy to the rest of Europe, or he's talking about World Wars, where America Stepped in and helped. As said without Washington theres a slim chance for America, without America there was a low chance Democracy would stayed in Europe(especially after WWII) Then Again, we only know what happened not what could of happened.


    Lmao. You know Lincoln was the only one that was photographed more the John Wilkes Booth.




    Washington DID not name the Capital, as matter of fact, last I read about him and the capital is he did not want it named after him.

    Roosevelt did win, but can we say he did it alone? He had help.

    Lincoln Did not Abolish Slavery.



    Emancipation Proclamation, was an illegal document that freed slaves in territories not belonging to the United States. Plus, only a King makes Proclamation, so this was really a slap to the face of Americans who less than 100 years before fought to free themselves from the King. Also, the South did Secede and form a nation, it was then invaded and forced to reintegrate into
    Union society, and forced to pass legislation and amendments in order to rejoin. And also forced several states into relinquishing their right to secede. Then suffer years of torment called the Reconstruction Era.


    Sorry I read alot into the Civil War(which really wasn't a Civil War as the South fought to keep their own land) , I've read both sides of the story as well as neutral. I like this part of American history.

    ---------------------------------------
    Edit: Ahimsadharma This is a topic on Lincoln. NOT YOUR ANTI AMERICAN BELIEFS. This is the second topic you've screwed up that I have seen. Your a little kid that doesn't know where he wandered. Unless you can talk about Lincoln or a President that may of been better than him, LEAVE KID. And READ A BOOK!
    -----------------------------------------
    We Now Return You to the Regularly Scheduled Program
    ------------------------------------------
    But Theodore Roosevelt is my all time favorite President, and I think if people were told more about other Presidents they would see who they really like, instead of what is popular to like.
     
  17. Gaius Octavius

    Gaius Octavius Deity

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    So the Proclamation of Thanksgiving each year is in bad taste? :p I wouldn't say that only a king makes proclamations.

    At any rate several of your points about the Civil War are certainly correct.
     
  18. meatwad4289

    meatwad4289 Prince

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    lol well A kingly figure like a monarch, a dictator, Czar, Caesar, you understand the absolute guy. And yeah it is in bad taste lol I didn't even think about the Proclamation of Thanksgiving lol Well to be fair, Only Washington and Madison did it. Then Lincoln restarted it lol. But it's not saying "All your turkey's Are Belong to Us" lmao.
     
  19. zienth

    zienth Chieftain

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    What was the topic of this thread? Oh, right, building codes. :)

    Building codes exist to make sure that builders (whether contractors or homeowners) build things safely. Building permits exists to make sure that builders actually follow the codes.

    I recently bought a house that had been owned by a general contractor. He built a deck on the side of the upper floor, without getting permits. I knew this when I bought the house, and 1) assumed that since he was a contractor working on his own home, he'd have done it right, and 2) I had checked with the county planning office to find out what would be required to get it permitted. Assuming it was built properly, I'd basically just need to have "as-built" plans drawn up and have it inspected (plus pay some money). So a few months ago I had an engineer come out to look it over, and his calculations showed that the main beam, which is cantilevered for about 50% of its length, is about half the size it ought to be. So if I ever had a group of people out on that end of the deck, it might well collapse. If the guy who had built it had gotten permits for it, he'd have been forced to build it correctly. Now I'm faced with a significant expense to get that beam replaced. And no, I can't sue him because he had disclosed that it was built without permits. I should have had it inspected before I bought the house, but I had made assumption #1 above (mea culpa).

    We've all seen pictures of earthquakes in third world counties where entire apartment buildings have collapsed because they were poorly built, killing everyone in them. But when we have earthquakes here in California, we don't have that kind of collapses (except the occasional ancient freeway) because we have proper building codes and we make sure the builders follow them.

    It's all well and good to say that I'm responsible if my house catches on fire, but if I'm not an expert on furnaces and I hire a contractor to install one, how do I know that he did it safely and it isn't going to burn down my house? Because the county requires him to follow codes to ensure it's done correctly, and part of the permit process involves having an inspector who knows a lot more than I do to come out and make sure he did it right. Without that, the homeowner is exposed to the very possible risk of having an unethical (or simply ignorant) contractor leave a dangerous situation behind. They also help prevent ignorant homeowners who don't know what they are doing, but try to do the work themselves.

    Permits and codes exist to protect the property owner. Yeah, permits can be a major pain in the posterior, and frankly I think my county needs a major overhaul in how they are handled, but without them you'd see a lot more injuries and deaths due to bad work by bad contractors.

    Don't get me started on gun control... :)

    Zienth
     
  20. Halt

    Halt Warlord

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    Friend...

    #1 The Emancipation Proclamation was not an illegal document (if you like it or not is not the issue).

    It was an order by the Executive Branch of government which has the effect of law. The Congress has the right to either pass a legislation to counteract this order or refuse to fund the order. However Presidents have this capability as part of the balance of power.

    #2 The South choice to Secede was an illegal act. Therefore the Government of the US could pass any laws they wanted and it would legally be binding on all of America even if not enforceable.

    Now you could argue States have a right to Secede from the Union. I would argue two points; A. If you believe this find the clear documentary evidence which is both the "document and the commentaries which explains the document", B. If the answer is yes you found the information... Then look at the form of how such a process was supposed to occur and compare that with the actual events and you will have to agree that the form of their actions were not lawful.


    For those looking for an interesting read... "Memoirs of Ulysses S. Grant" are probably the BEST and truest book written by a participant in that conflict. Written while he was dying... His candor is impressive
     

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