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President Hugo Chavez dead at 58

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Cheezy the Wiz, Mar 5, 2013.

  1. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    That's utter baloney.

    What he did was use the countries wealth accumulated from not only it's vast natural resources, but also it's emerging middle class entrepreneurs, and funnel them towards his and his cronies bank accounts on foreign shores. The Venezuelan people got very little of it. All that nonsense of him giving to the poor never really happened, except for a few months prior to each of his elections. The poor rioted several times during my stay in Venezuela against Chavez because they didn't receive the aid that Chavez promised them. Further, Chavez promised unsustainable development that would never have helped poor Venezuelans on the long run.

    I don't know where you are getting your information from but I can tell you what actually happened in Venezuela over the last decade. Non-stop re-occuring blackouts in cities, the poor being cut from their only access to clean water on a regular basis, brutal and often corrupt mismanagement of various public infrastructure systems, rise in prices of food and basic essentials etc. The poor are not better off than they were before Chavez. The only thing I can think of that's improved is the literacy rate, which while being good and all, was merely a positive sideffect of completely destroying Venezuela's education system.

    I can sit here for a long time and list individual examples of various industries that have been screwed by Chavez rule. PDVSA and the country's oil in general, is only the tip of the iceberg and should hardly be the only thing talked about. Venezuela wasn't just an oil giant, Venezuela has vast reserves of natural resources from metals to various energies of both the natural and renewable kind, a very rich expense of plains ideal for farmland(before Chavez took power, Venezuela was I believe the 7th largest exporter of grains to USA), a booming tourism industry, and huge industrial capability. Many of these industries have severely gone down in efficiency, or in the case of aquaculture, due to brutal mismanagement, is nearly dead.

    You know it's funny. Growing up in Canada I always thought that state-owned crown corporations (like Hydro-Canada or LCBO) were very efficient and productive and never understood the mass-hysteria right-wingers had with them. Then I moved to Venezuela and saw how 'efficiently' nationalized corporations were run. :crazyeye:
     
  2. Goodfella

    Goodfella Showing results for

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    He used those natural resources to make himself several billion dollars.
     
  3. HannibalBarka

    HannibalBarka We are Free

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    I don't like Chavez much, not because he was a dictator (it seems he was freely elected and even the most vocal anti-chafezians here are saying 50% of venezualien loved him and 50% hated him), but because he did not do a great economic job for his country and was too political and dogmatic than pragmatic.
    I think he did the right thing in his social programs as Venezuala (like almost all of South America) has a too high inequality problem and a too big portion of the riches is concentrated (and inherited) in the hands of a small portion of the population. That is not good ethically and economically. Chavez did a poor job however economically and was too much focused on international politics than on his own country. A much better latin american leader is Lula. Lula succeeded both in his social programs than in his economic ones.
     
  4. kulade

    kulade Deity

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    So Caesar is dead?

    It's worth wondering if the Mesa can feasibly wriggle into power now, but I doubt they'd have the political capital to moderate any of Chávez's more radical policies.

    Then again I'm not sure how strong the Right is in Venezuela now anyway, they probably are going to go thru the same leadership problems Chávez's coalition will be going thru.
     
  5. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    Where is your proof that the "average Venezuelan" hated Chavez as the two of you clearly do?

    I have yet to see you "lean left of center" in any of the opinions which you have expressed recently, while constantly trying to rationalize and defend the statements of those who clearly aren't. You even just called those Venezuelans who supported Chavez "stupid" for merely disagreeing with your own personal opinions. That is hardly a "left of center" position.

    Again, where is your proof that there was widespread celebration when it was announced he was dead instead of a few right-wing extremists who even had the bad taste to fire off fireworks when their own president died of cancer.

    So that's what you call merely pointing out the obvious facts while stating that there was much I didn't like about him. :crazyeye:

    But no, I have no great ill will towards the man as you and others clearly do. I certainly didn't wish him to be dead as you apparently did.

    Keep providing such "personal estimates". They are a constant source of amusement to us all.

    Again, where is your proof. While Venezuela has recently been having economic difficulties, that certainly wasn't the case when Chavez used the oil money to help build the necessary infrastructure to bring Venezuela eventually out of the far more "tyrannical" times of his predecessors who were far more corrupt and elitist. When he used the money to help benefit the poor of Venezuela instead of the rich, as his predecessors did.

    You claim to lean to the left, but how many other "leftists" in this forum hate Chavez as you clearly do? How many from the far-right are echoing your own sentiments instead?

    These anti-Chavez anti-socialism threads remind me so much of this guy:


    Link to video.
     
  6. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    But the majority that hate Obama hate him because they are racists, and not because of anything Obama has done. So Obama is hated by the most immoral people in the country. That should tell you something. Others hate him simply because he's not going as far to sell out the country to special interests as they want. So that group is the second most immoral group in the country.

    If Obama was hated by moral people, that would be one thing. But that's clearly not true.
     
  7. bhsup

    bhsup Deity

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    Calling BS on that. Evidence, please. Polling, hard data only. Not anecdotal videos of random racists.
     
  8. Goodfella

    Goodfella Showing results for

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    You realize having a certain political affiliation doesn't mean you must agree with everything that all members of that party believe in? So the fact that on this particular issue, he may be aligned more with those on the right than on the left does not in anyway change his other political views. And I'm in the same position: I'm a democrat (not really a leftist) but I at least have the impartiality to admit that Chavez was a corrupt scumbag who used nationalized industry to make several billion dollars. He sent armed gangs to intimidate opposition and he persecuted the Jews, claiming they killed Jesus and were involved in an international conspiracy. I guess this finally explains your mentality: disagree with everything that a republican might agree with. No wonder your just a partisan clown with no opinions of your own. It's just whatever republicans think, you think the opposite.
     
  9. GhostWriter16

    GhostWriter16 Deity

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    Almost nobody hates Obama because they're racist. I'm sure most of them would be happy to see someone like Herman Cain in office. Granted, some of them do hate him for irrartional reasons (Such as "FoxNews told me to" or "He's the antichrist" [Yes I have heard people say this] and others) but rarely because they flat out hate everyone who's black.

    Racists aren't the most immoral group in the country either. Murderers and thieves are far more immoral as far as I'm concerned. "Racists" in generic are immoral yes, but ought not to be criminals, and so are morally less abhorrent than those who should be legally punished for murder or theft.

    As for "Special interests" are you freaking kidding me about Obama not selling out to special interests? Remember the bailouts? Remember Obamacare? Remember the extension of the Patriot Act and expansion of the TSA? Yeah, I think you've just been asleep for the past four years. Most conservatives, flawed as they may be, dislike him because they perceive him as not being lasseiz faire enough, or because they don't see him as being aggressive enough on foreign policy (The former complaint is valid, the latter complaint makes them idiots) not because he "Doesn't sell out to special interests."

    From what I've been seeing on Libertarian blogs, on the other hand, they tend to hate him more because of his foreign policy (For the opposite reason as the GOP, the Libertarians think that he's too warlike, which he is) than because of his fiscal policy. And this is ultimately why I hate him. I can partially forgive his economic policy since so many democrats agree with it, but I cannot forgive him for this ON TOP OF his expansions of war, drone strikes on the innocent, wars on drugs, the Patriot Act, the TSA, the NDAA, exc. Obama is evil and everyone should call him evil with the loudest, most hateful rhetoric possible. They shoud treat him exactly like they would treat any other murderer.

    No forgiveness. I just wish there would someday be a Nuremberg Trial. Too bad... but he certainly deserves one...
     
  10. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    Salon: Hugo Chavez’s economic miracle

    No wonder he was perceived as being such a threat by so many who hate and vilify socialism.
     
  11. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    "I guess this finally explains your mentality". Despite me finding fault with many of Chavez clear faults and clearly stating such in this thread and others, I don't have the "impartiality" to hate and vilify him as you and so many others do. :crazyeye:
     
  12. bhsup

    bhsup Deity

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    And that's where I stopped. Please use reputable sources.
     
  13. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    Please continue to publicly claim that sources like Salon aren't "reputable". :crazyeye:
     
  14. kulade

    kulade Deity

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    You need to get out more, seriously. Have you ever met anyone in person you disagree with? Do you impute wicked motives on everyone you disagree with, or only in politics?

    Strangely enough this is exactly the same problem that the American Right has, they refuse to understand their opponents viewpoints because it makes them more easy to intellectually pigeonhole and categorically explain away.
     
  15. classical_hero

    classical_hero In whom I trust

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  16. Goodfella

    Goodfella Showing results for

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    He was a villain. Any impartial observation would agree.

    http://www.jta.org/news/article/201...ne-of-venezuelan-jews-chavez-is-gone-now-what

     
  17. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    You don't seem to understand what the words "villain" and "impartial" even mean by you own continuing hyperbole resulting from a clear and quite "partial" hatred of him.

    Again, there was much to not like about him. But he was hardly any worse than many other leaders, including those who are friendly to the US.
     
  18. Goodfella

    Goodfella Showing results for

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    You would assume that because I dislike someone who isn't friendly to the US, I like those who are. Sorry, wrong guy. I don't like any oppressive or racist leaders.
     
  19. Azale

    Azale Deity

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    Correa is better and less crazy. He can take the mantle of iconoclastic Latin American leader.

    Also, would just like to toss in the fact that Chavez is probably less heavy handed and authoritarian than Colombia's Uribe or Mexico's Calderon were. Their records are also fairly comparable, but only Chavez is ridiculed the world over.

    I'll also have you jerks know that I really hate being in the position of defending the Red Caudillo.
     
  20. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    I didn't say a word about what you "would" or wouldn't "assume". I merely pointed out that in the grand scheme of things that Chavez wasn't very "oppressive" or "racist" at all.

    "Any impartial observation would agree."

    Only Chavez isn't "ridiculed the world over". He is greatly admired by many Latin American countries which have taken the same route to greatly reduce impoverishment while massively improving the educational and health level for all its citizens.

    But you make an excellent point about how moderate he actually is compared to many other leaders in the region. Leaders who seem to manage to escape from the same sort of vilification because they don't advocate socialism.

    Chavez is largely the victim of a massive propaganda campaign which has been waged against him for decades now. It has much in common with essentially the same Cold War rhetoric which imperiled the entire world through fear mongering and paranoia.
     

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