preventing gigantic city elves

[Imuratep]

The fact that the elves are the civ with the highers growth potential always occurred strange to me as I imagine them more as a small elite with high span of life but low growth rates. IIRC it is not possible to increase the food you need stored for growth which IMHO would be the perfect solution. But it is possible to limit the population cap for a civilization (as seen with the Jotnar from FF). So my idea is to put a population limit of 10 to all elven cities, but in return their palace grants them a building in every city that gets them +1 +1 and +3 (Ljosalfar)/ +1 +1 and +2 (Svartalfar) in every city for each exceeding and (analogue to the bunhappinessproduction of Governors Manor) Would be a serious disadvantage as they lose a lot of /production potential but it also would enable a completely new playstyle (especially for a Ljosalfar cultural victory) that still left GoN as a very good civic for them.
To extend this you could introduce unique analogue buildings for each religion to prevent FoL being the only real choice: +1 for Ashen Veil, +1 for Kilmorph, +2 for OO, +2 for Esus and so on...

 

[Ahwaric]

Actually, a solution will be in next Orbis patch. I have added building granting -10% (plus +20% and +5xp for all units).
I tried with -20% but it seemed a bit to harsh, especially in early game where it took very long to grow city to size 2 and almost forever to 3.

The -10% applies to all produced, so a size 3 city with 2 grassland farms (or foresters) and one plains cottage, all with no bonuses, produce just enough to support the city (10 food total, but only 9 for elves). It grows with techs, civics and ancient forests, but should still be limited. I.e. if city produces 60 food, it is enough for population 20 for normal civs, but only 18 for elves.

-10% it is perhaps not enough to make elven cities smaller than of other civs, but should keep them from growing megacities they currently have...

Your proposal is interesting, but will change elves a lot and they are quite flavourfull now.
Also, the production will be a big problem.

 

[Imuratep]

Ah I hadn't seen this change. Though I still like my idea (and once I understand how to do it probably will create my own modmod for it) this change will certainly prevent the elves from becoming gigantic.

 

[Willgar]

hard caps on city sizes are problematic as they dont scale with map size.

 

[Valkrionn]

I agree, actually. We removed the Jotnar cap in FFPlus, and raised their food/pop to 3 rather than 2 (FF(Plus) never made that change from Orbis. )... Works pretty well. They can get over the 8 pop they were limited to, but you have to work at it or have a very good city location. Of course, only possible because they have a unique civic they are not allowed to switch out of.

 

[Opera]

Hmm. Would it really be necessary to scale them on map size...? Maybe I'm stupid but I don't see how map size has anything to do with population in cities.

Also, capping cities' population is possible in LENA just by using the XML, as it is already done for the Ngomele. Plus, you can modify the cap by buildings/techs/civics.

 

[Willgar]

Hmm. Would it really be necessary to scale them on map size...? Maybe I'm stupid but I don't see how map size has anything to do with population in cities.

Also, capping cities' population is possible in LENA just by using the XML, as it is already done for the Ngomele. Plus, you can modify the cap by buildings/techs/civics.

Opera you are certainly not stupid...

If you cap elven population by city to 10 and on a small map you can only land grab 5 cities, maxiumum global poulation is 50. While your unrestricted non elf rivals might well only have 5 cities due to available space they have no pop cap so will have much larger, more productive cities, more specialist etc.

On a large map where you can have 20+ cities before you run out of expansion room, a cap of 10 population would not be so bad assuming you allowed them to have half cost settlers as capped cities would make generated setlers harder and slow down expansion.

It is such a drastic change to the mechanic that you would have to rebalance everything else but it would be much more noticable on a smaller map...

 

[Opera]

Oh, I see your point. I could make it scale on map size then, I guess. I'm not sure... But I think it's possible

 

[Willgar]

Oh, I see your point. I could make it scale on map size then, I guess. I'm not sure... But I think it's possible

Not entirely sure what the actual problem was with huge elven cities - is it just a thematic thing or the fact that they can be horrible over powered...?

 

[Opera]

I'm not sure either. Both I think. Elves aren't spreading like rabbits in the lore and they're a bit OP in the game

(but I've the Ngomele in mind, since they already use this mechanic... so maybe it'll be good to scale it with map size)

 

[Imuratep]

Both actually. They have tremendous production and research potential by being able to get until the population maximum of every city. If it was just the flavor I would not care as much about it as game mechanic trumps flavor.

 

[Pazyryk]

There's that crazy "game mechanic trumps flavor" statement again. I know Kael said this but I have to disagree... or maybe I just don't get it. So elves must breed like rabbits because the current ancient forest and civic mechanisms are more important than flavor? Elohim stuck with conquest only mechanism (assimilation) despite their supposedly peaceful nature? But in other cases the mechanism clearly follows flavor, as it should: extra sea food and pirate coves for Lanun. Warrens for Clan. It's a weird statement to say flavor follows mechanism. I don't even think Keal believes this, I think he says it because it sounds sagely and mysterious.

 

[Valkrionn]

I think it's more of a balance than one trumps the other. Personally, without the lore behind it the game mechanics aren't as interesting... But without the mechanic, the lore is just text.

 

[Emptiness]

When an Elven city grows, have a (([new city size] - 2) * 3)% chance that the population growth will be immediately reversed. So a size one city will always successfully grow to size two, a size two city will have a 97% chance of growing to size three and a 3% chance of having to start over (still size two but empty food storage), and so on. A size 19 city would only have a 46% chance of growing to size 20.

Then give the Elven civs unique versions of the Granary and Smokehouse that have "Increases the chance of successful population growth" instead of "Stores 20% of after growth". Elven cities that grow will start with empty food storage even with those buildings (thus increasing food needed to grow to the next size). These buildings would instead ease the growth of cities by modifying the population reversion equation. With either a Granary or a Smokehouse it would become (([new city size] - 4) * 3)%, and with both it would be (([new city size] - 6) * 3)%. One of those buildings would give a 100% chance to grow to population four, and both would guarantee growth to population six. Also, each higher population would be easier to obtain because of this effect. A size 19 city with both a Granary and a Smokehouse would have a 58% chance of growing to size 20.

Finally, give the Elven civs a unique version of the Grove which has "Greatly increases the chance of successful population growth". This would reduce the multiplier in the reversion equation from 3 to 2, so a city with Granary, Smokehouse and Grove would have a (([new city size] - 6) * 2)% chance of failing to grow. If that city is size 19 then the chance of growing to size 20 would be 72%.

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The advantage of this method is that it reduces the rate of Elven population growth without reducing the availabilty of to support specialists and without affecting the suitability of potential city sites (like hard population caps or production penalties would). The disadvantage is the random chance aspect, which would be difficult for players to adjust to (frustration and confusion).

 

[Monkeyfinger]

The happiness/health bonuses they get from GoN and the extra food from ancient forests are nice, but neither is going to help them grow if they lack improvements to generate the real heavy bulk of food. So maybe a good balancing solution would be to strangle their number of improvements by giving them slower workers.

Oh, wait....

 

[Bootsiuv]

Emptiess idea sounds quite interesting.

The only problem I could see is it would make it even harder to learn the game as a new player.

A minor issue though (and one easily solved by incorporating proper documentation into the game).

 

[Imuratep]

A question: Does the 5XP bonus for Elves include workers? Because if this is the case it pretty much negates the disadvantage Elves should have. Generally it seems more like a buff than a nerf to me. I think instead of turning the elves into uber early warmongerers the culture rate they get should be increased --> From 20% to 40% . This way Arendel finally would be the cultural victory powerhouse she should actually be.
Additionally I prefer to see Ljosalfar and Svartalfar differentiated in this point as Svartalfar are not really about culture but about espionage. So my idea is to create a seperate building "Darkelven citizens" that replaces the bonus of the Ljosalfar with an bonus.

 

[Ahwaric]

A question: Does the 5XP bonus for Elves include workers? Because if this is the case it pretty much negates the disadvantage Elves should have.

And why is that? Yes, workers are more experienced, so might get +30% work build from start. But the get -20% innate. ALso, they might have all plots improved but that does not help much. They still can actually use the few that population allows. And population will be smaller.
Just build a city (with non-fallow civ), open worldbuilder, make the city size 4, add any improvements you want (but no unique ones and advanced techs for now). Exit worldbuilder, enter the city. Notice the food. Now open worldbuilder again and add marktplace to the city. Close worldbuilder and check the food again. Now imagine instead of gaining, you lose that amount...

Generally it seems more like a buff than a nerf to me. I think instead of turning the elves into uber early warmongerers the culture rate they get should be increased --> From 20% to 40% .

The culture bonus is mostly for flavour, but also to make them good in culture despite lower population. Also, +20% is not that low.
Regarding svartalfar, how about +10% , +10% ?
The xp bonus follows suggestion that elves live long and should have less units (less city pop - lower production) but more experienced. That are two promotions in early game, but just one in late, as you can get 5 xp for any unit anyway

 

[Master_Hugian]

I am also wondering whether it will be a debuff in the end, I definetly see it hindering the beginning as it would act like -1 and later (size 3/4 onwards) -2 However, the penalty to farms has been removed, so two farms negate this. (Especially since they can have ancient forest farms, ending up producing one more food than other farms of other civs).

Personally I think a larger change should be made, make is so that each population eats 4 instead of 3 (3.5 if it could be managed would be better). The problem with this is that it would really hinder early growth which could kill a game, so perhaps also making the elven palaces provide 3 .

Also production wise, as the elves I have never had a problem with it, but then I use forester's lodges almost exclusivly, 1 2 1 for relative early game, gaining an extra hammer later, on top of the extra +1 from ancient forests meant that I have huge production while still getting 4 per tile.

Example:
Techs/Civics assumed: Survival, Way of the Forest

Ancient Forest, Grasslands, Forester's Lodge, River
4 , 3 , 2

Population 4 city working four of these tiles (plus city tile)
19 , 14 , 10

-10% penalty

17 (5 excess)

 

[Ahwaric]

Example:
Techs/Civics assumed: Survival, Way of the Forest

Survival that late - well, not that good for a builder game,

Ancient Forest, Grasslands, Forester's Lodge, River

Not every tile is riverside grassland.

But even if:

4 , 3 , 2

Population 4 city working four of these tiles (plus city tile)
19 , 14 , 10

-10% penalty

17 (5 excess)

Population 4 - ok.
But I guess we want a bit more, right?
So, at population 24:
83, 62 , 42
-10%
75
Consumption
24 x 3 = 72
So one extra. Total 25 citizens possible.

With no reduction, you get almost 28
Also, in normal city you get mixed terrain, so you will have less food & commerce, but perhaps more
Also, you will get to population 25 slower than now.

So ok, I agree that production is not a problem for elves.

Should I change xp bonus to 3 and make elven citizens -15% ?
It is a rough equivalent of 3,5 per population (which can't be currently added for a civ, only for civic)
That might need adding another 1 from elven palace to make elves competetive in early game. or 2 extra and -20% ?