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Which Option?


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Israelite9191

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I have planning a summer NES for the past few months, and up to this point I had assured myself that I was going to do an alt-hist. However, the other day, I stumbled across the old map from IsrNES4: Novus Ordo Seclorum. Looking at it, I started to get the urge to give it another go (due to unexpected scheduling difficulties at the time the NES died prematurely with a single, very sub-par to my standards update). After debating it in my head for a while, I decided the best thing to do would be to get a general idea from the community on what would be preferred. The two options are:

EDIT: It's just a wee bit late for this to be a summer 2007 NES, so the point at which I will start this NES will have to be changed to some point in the (hopefully very near) future.

YosefNES I: Oif Gelt, Oif Gelt, un Oif Gelt

This would be the first in a new series of NESes for me. Named after the extraordinary historian Yosef ben Matityahu (known also as Flavius Josephus), this series would consist entirely of alternate histories, as opposed to my previous IsrNES series which has been entirely fresh starts and fresh start based NESes. This particular NES would be modeled after my (currently under production) time line "The Age of Elisabeth". This time line involves the fourteenth century rise of a Hungarian "super power" in Europe following the union of the Angevine Neapolitan and Hungarian thrones under the influence of Elisabeth of Bosnia Angevine née Kotromanić, Queen Mother of Hungary. By the time the time line is completed, the colonial age should have just dawned. More than anything, this time line offers a world where the balance of power has shifted entirely with none of the colonial great powers (excepting Portugal) of OTL being present in TTL. If I choose this option the only reservations will be for people who have contributed, namely Alex, Azale, Das, North King, and Silver. All have made reservations; respectively, they are: Italy, the Ottoman Empire, Ming China, Hungary, and Lithuania-Novgorod. Below is the current map (very much still under construction) up to the latest installation. Only Europe and the Mediterranean are up to date, and in a couple parts (most notably Russia) I have carried the map slightly past the TL.

EDIT: The map has been replaced with the (nearl) finalised version (as of 9 March 2008). The only things I anticipate changing are the balance of special cities and the borders of subnational regions.

Spoiler Map :




IsrNES4 II: Un G-tt Lacht

Although it died in infancy, IsrNES4: Novus Ordo Seclorum was most definately my most popular NES with 22 people joining right off the bat. The premise of the NES was that I took IsrNES2: Cities of Glory and sped it up a few centuries to the begining of the imperial age. By this point civilisation has spread significantly (more so than OTL) and numerous strong empires and kingdoms are available throughout the world, with very appealing options available in every reasonable region (including the Americas). However, the most attractive thing about this NES is the level of depth. Each nation has a very detailed identity, with a complexity of culture, historiy, social structure, and religion that I have seen in very, very few other NESes. Should I end up taking this option, the former players would obviously have the right to reclaim there old nation (however, it should be noted that there were many, many very good options still open for new players). However, three very important and much missed players, Finmaster, Dreadnought, and Grandmaster, have left us and thus left open three nations, including the most powerful in the world. I may or may not leave this first come and first serve. It should also be noted that I have saved every PM, including all orders and diplomacy, from that NES. Below are the map, religious map (not including religion in the grey regions), and a list of the nation descrptions, extracted from the stats.

Spoiler Map :




Spoiler Religious Map :


EDIT: As I forgot to add an "other" option, I voted for YosefNES in order to see the results. This DOES NOT imply preference.
 
Spoiler Nation Descriptions :

Africa

Carthaginian Empire

Carthage was for a long time part of the Phoenician Empire, under whom it quickly grew to become a world-class city. When Phoenicia began to collapse, it was to Carthage that Empress Dido escaped. Here she founded the new Carthaginian Empire which quickly absorbed Phoenicia’s other N. African colonies. As time progressed they absorbed the entirety of Syracuse and Napoli as well as the islands of Corsica and the Balearics and Minoan Libya. They are now a major power, however they have increasing competition from all sides as well as internal problems, the most obvious of which is corruption among the civilian leadership.

Egyptian Empire

Even when the unstoppable Moesians stormed up the Nile, even when the unbreakable armies of Israel marched on Goshen, even when the Libyan horsemen came in locust-swarms out of the desert, Egypt did not fall. The farthest south they have ever been driven is Thebes, and in Thebes Egypt has always won. When the Moesians drove Egypt south, Egypt conquered Kush. When the Moesians retreated back down the Nile, the Egyptians followed. They have been unsuccessful in finally riding the land of Aramaeans and Israelites, but Egypt is at its strongest. The old and once glorious empire of Cyrenaica is now ruled from Thebes and the old civil wars appear over. However, Egypt still has many challenges ahead. Rashid remains in the hands of G-ddess worshipers and the powers that be in Egypt continue to bicker. Strong leadership will guarantee Egypt’s stature in the world, but weak leadership will lead it to destruction.

Americas

Caddo Confederation

Bound together for generations upon generations, the Hasinai, Kadohadacho, and the Natchitoches as well as the oppressed and mostly killed in genocide Wichita and Pawnee, form the Caddo Confederation. Up to now the Caddo have resisted the Comanche and Apache, carving out a thriving agricultural and militant civilization. They are a second-tier power compared to Muskogeans and other Mississippi powers. However, the Caddo have a strategic power base and position that could be utilized in a grand rise to power, although they first must continue to stand up to the constant attacks on their borders by the Plains tribes.

Empire of Calusamul

Facing Mayan pressure, the Calusahatchee emperors consolidated their nation and formed a stiff resistance to the Mayan colonizers. The Calusa are an eager nation with large prospects and great hopes; however, they are restricted by their vigilant and wealthy neighbours. It is time for Calusamul to once again rise to the occasion and make the tough decisions that could forge a great new power in the region.

Kaan

As the Golden Age of the Mayan Empire came to an end civil war erupted in the heartland. The major sides were: the central government in Chichén Itzá, Kalakmul, and Mutal. It soon became evident that Chichén Itzá would be completely irrelevant in this war. After many bloody years of fighting the Mayan Empire was split in two: in the north of the Yucatán was Kaan, who also inherited the colonial holdings, and in the south the Mutal Empire. Kaan has continued to focus its attention on the Olmec Gulf [Gulf of Mexico], but they must always keep a vigilant eye on affairs in Mesoamerica.

Karankawamul

Colonized by the Maya, Karankawamul is part of the Mayan world. After the collapse of the Mayan Empire the Karankawamul colony easily established its independence. They now seek to follow the path of Mutal and create a naval, mercantile empire. However, old habits die hard and with the constant pressure of their sworn enemies, the Comanche, Karankawa has found little room to advance. With luck, all that could change.

Muskogean Confederation

The Muskogean confederation, consisting mainly of the Choctaw and Chickasaw, is bound together by language, culture, and faith. It was in Nanih Waya that the Great Southern Cult, which is now the dominant belief system of Mississippi. As the Mayan Empire began to collapse, the Muskogeans dealt a devastating blow by seizing the valuable Mayan colony of Mayan Mississippimul.

Mutalan Empire

After the collapse of the great Mayan Empire, Mutal emerged as the great power in the south. Prevented from dominating the Yucatan by Kalakmul, they instead focused on expanding eastward into the Mayan and non-Mayan regions that the Old Empire had conquered. In the past the city of Chichicatenango was the centre of Mayan religion. However, this has been usurped by Chichén Itzá. This could still be reversed, but it will be hard. The same can be said of Mutal as a whole, which is usurped as the centre of the Mayan world be Kaan, but still has the potential to change this.

Zapotec Empire

The Zapotecs were always the militant backwater of the region. However, they quickly rose to prominence by conquering the ancient and revered Olmec. Now, they stand at a stand still. They are not powerful enough militarily to compete with Mutal, nor economically with Kaan; meanwhile, the Nahua tribes are still too powerful to be dealt with easily. The Zapotecs must now make a choice: either maintain their balanced culture and remain in mediocrity, or choose a new direction and learn to compete with their neighbours.

Asia (West/Iran)

Mamlaka of Arabia

As trade swept through the Persian Gulf several independent nation states arose on the coast. Eventually, Abu Dhabi would rise to the challenge and conquer most of it’s neighbours with the exception of a smaller Bahraini state in the west. After successfully taking Masqat from the crumbling Minaeans, Abu Dhabi absorbed the slowly declining Bahraini Empire, forming the Mamlaka of Arabia. Their position is strong and their coffers overflowing, but they are dependent on mercenaries and the fickle trade routes, should either of these resources dry up they would find themselves in big trouble.

Aram Damascus

Following the collapse of the Moesian Empire, Aram Damascus filled the power vacuum in Syria. Overtime Aram Damascus successfully brought the collapsed Israelite and Phoenician (except for Sidon, Byblos, and Cyprus) kingdoms under its control. Soon after, both Judaism and Ba’alism began to gain wild popularity in the kingdom. However, during the reign of Hadadezer the prophet Bar’el spread the new religion of Elism, a blend of Jewish, Ba’alist, traditional Canaanite, and traditional Aramaean elements. Elism quickly became the dominant faith of the Aramaeans and many of their subjects gaining a plurality in Aram Damascus. Now, under the zealously religious rule of Haza’el, Aram Damascus is at a crossroads. They are one of the greatest powers in the world, but they are also surrounded by the others of the greatest powers in the world. They now have the choice to either propel themselves forward into a new Golden Age, or stagnate as so many other empires have.

Kingdom of Asia

The region now occupied by the Kingdom of Asia has a very long and complicated history. At different points in time ruled by Hittites, Armenians, Neo-Hittites, Dardanians, and Trojans, it was after the collapse of the Moesian Empire that independence for the region was finally won. Two separate kingdoms, Bithynia in the west and Pontus in the east took shape. Pontus quickly evolved into a commercial and naval power controlling much of the Anatolian coast, the Lesser Armenian coast, and even Crimea after the successful conquest and colonization of Crimean Scythia. Bithynia on the other hand evolved into a militant power, ruling a small part of the Anatolian coast as well as all of north-central Anatolia, including inner Hatti. Bithynia even briefly controlled Dardania and Thrace, though not Troy. Under the leadership of Basileus Polemon of Pontus and Basilissa Etazeta of Bithynia, Pontus and Bithynia were peacefully united as the Kingdom of Asia with the capital in the new city of Esnosis Polis (Union City), which has evolved into Enoplis. The Kingdom of Asia now stands as a strong power with both commercial naval traditions and military traditions. However, it is trapped between the more powerful Troy and Scythia with little room to move.

Kingdom of Cyprus

After the capture of the island by Moesian forces, Cyprus experienced a huge influx of Hellenic immigrants and the creation of a large and power Hellenic nobility. After the fall of the Moesian Empire, the subsequent civil wars and genocide of Punic, and rise of Salamis, Cyprus finally became an independent, and unified, nation. Though they are comparatively weak, they have many allies among the mercenaries who find housing in the ports of Cyprus in-between jobs. Cyprus has apparently little hope of creating a great empire, but far wilder things have happened.

Mamlaka of Himyar

As the decadence and corruption of Minaea grew, so did rebellions and with them social change. While the government strived desperately to keep hold of its valuable border territories, a threat even closer to home was brewing. The Minaean Arabs were relatively quickly converted en masse to the imported faith of Judaism. By the time the authorities noticed, it was too late. The rebellion came and the Minaean kingdom was overthrown to be replaced by the new, Jewish, Himyarite Kingdom. Himyar has focused on consolidating its holdings and improving its trade network. Now could well be the time for the young kingdom to take up the sword and march forwards for the glory of the kingdom. Himyar may be young, but it has boundless potential.

Kingdom of Kizzuwatna

After the collapse of the Neo-Hittite Empire at the hands of its neighbours, the remaining Hittite aristocracy fled south to the formerly Luwian region of Kizzuwatna. Here they created a new kingdom. Successfully resisting the efforts of the Phoenicians to conquer and colonize the region, Kizzuwatna managed to hold out until the collapse of the Phoenician Empire. They have subsequently grown slightly and entered the political region as a third-tier power. Surrounded by more powerful neighbours, it is often said that it is only by the Grace of the G-ds that Kizzuwatna still exists. Inhabiting a strategic position, Kizzuwatna has great potential, but it could be excruciatingly hard to utilize that potential given the geo-politics.

Persian Empire

Persia is nearly as eternal as Egypt. For centuries Persia has ruled over their vast empire across the Iranian plateau, at one point even Mesopotamia. They are still extraordinarily powerful and have influence beyond their borders, but the loss of Mesopotamia is still hard felt. Persia is a great power, but needs strong leadership.

Scythian Empire

After the collapse of the Crimean Scythia, the nobility fled across the Crimean Bosporus to seek the aid of its nomadic brethren. From Phanagoria they began to build their empire, first bringing other Scythian tribes under their command and then they destroyed the Slavic states, completely eradicating the Russian Confederation and forcing its civilians into Kyiv, which they subsequently captured.

Trojan Empire

After the collapse of the Dardanian Confederation, Troy lost its standing, and it appeared to be for good. Soon they found themselves, for the first time in its history, the subjects of a foreign power, for the Moesian Empire had stretched across the Dardanelles to take the ancient city. Troy, however, would not tolerate this. It was because of Pleistoanax, the rebel leader of Troy, that the Moesian Empire fell. The subsequent kings of the Pleistonaxian Dynasty rebuilt the power Troy had in the Dardanian Confederation. The Trojan Empire has risen to new heights and dominates nearly all of Hellas. They are the greatest power in the region, but that power is constantly under threat.

Asia (Central/Indian Subcontinent)

Kingdom of Chola

After years of vicious war the Cholas united the southern tip of the Indian Subcontinent. Chola now stands as a fierce rival to their neighbour across the straights in Sinhala, but it also must contend with the “un-civilized” Tamils to their north. In addition, divisions remain within the nation. If Chola is truly to bring together such a diverse nation and rise to greatness above all of its competition it must conquer its inner enemies as well as its out enemies.

Mughal Empire

Founded by Babur, a claimant to the Sindu throne, who fled persecution and became a prophet. Founding Brahmanism, he gathered to him a large following. Over time the Mughal Empire conquered the surrounding nations and spread its hegemony over northern India. Eventually, it even destroyed its great enemy Sindu. They are now arguably the most powerful nation in the world, a distinction that is beginning to breed corruption and dangerously excessive self esteem.

Kingdom of Sinhala

Sinhala is an extraordinarily young nation. It is the current king, King Vijaya, who led the Sinhalese out of Orissa and to the isle of Lanka where they have found their kingdom and their capital of Anuradhapura. The Sinhalese have dynamic leadership and hold that they have the blessings of the g-ds. If they are correct, then they are destined for greatness, if they are wrong then their future is entirely unpredictable.

Sri Ksetra

The Pyu cities of Burma have always lived in relative peace and seclusion. The only period of real civilization was Suwarbumathumi, but that is long gone. Recently, however, as the Mon culture has infiltrated the region the Pyu have peacefully united around the strongest city state, Sri Ksetra. They are still extreme pacifists and would almost never go to war, but their horizons are broadening and with it the possible necessity of war comes into view. Sri Ksetra is well placed to take the world by storm, and it has many advantages in that matter, but their future is still questionable and their place insecure.

Asia (East)

Kingdom of Bei

After King Wen Di finally destroyed the Xiongnu hegemony over the largely Chinese population in the Battle of Zhuolu, the new Bei (or Northern) Dynasty was established. Years of war with the remnants of the Xiongnu, the collapsing Yue, and the retreating Gojoseon created a Chinese empire stretching from the Liaoding Peninsula to beyond the Huang He in the south and to the east banks of the Huang He in the west. The Bei Dynasty thrived in the north while in the south the Nan (Southern) Dynasty reigned supreme. Though a fierce rivalry existed, the fall of both empires would be at the hand of the rebels in-between the Huang He and Yangtze who would found the Kingdom of Zhong (Central) and rebels in Shan-Dong who would found the Kingdom of Qi. Bei is now a much smaller and much weaker kingdom desperate to hold on to power, but without the trade of Nan and with the threat of Zhong, Qi, and Han they will need a miracle to retain the glory of yore.

Kingdom of Han

While the east of China waged war after civil war, the west was gradually united under the power of the Han. Numerous small powers fell before their hands and now the Han have reason to a place of prominence among their neighbours. However, they are still normally out of the field of vision in Chinese affairs as the eastern states care more about the seas than the land. Han has great potential, if only a strong leader was able to utilize it.

Kuni of Hitachi

Always having been far away from the cultural and political centres of Nippon, Hitachi is a fiercely independent backwater. Here, the battle with the barbarian Ainu still rages on and trade is not even a question. War has hardened these people and in the future, once the Ainu are dealt with, the Mito Daimyos may be able to steal the coveted title of Nipponese Emperor.

Kingdom of Joseon

Joseon is oddly the “Old Man” of Asia. All other nations from its time have by now collapsed, and Joseon may well follow. Already, it is on the descent. At its height Joseon controlled the whole of Korea, as well as Jeju-Do, the Shandong Peninsula, and much of what is now Bei. Since then an unfortunate series of events has left Joseon clinging to its heartlands in desperation. They still have potential, and still have significant power, but they appear to be on their way out.

Kuni of Kansai

After the collapse of the Yamato, the daimyos of Nara rose to power in the Kansai region. The most powerful of Yamato’s successor states in Nippon, they led the movement to create the Nipponese Empire, a close-knit alliance to preserve the independence of Nippon under the threat of Tamnese imperialism. The Daimyo of Kansai is now the Emperor of Nippon, but this power is not as stable as it may seem.

Kuni of Kyukoku

The island of Kyushu has a long history of foreign rule, in particular rule by the mercantile Tamnese of Jeju-Do. This has formed a culture more cosmopolitan than any other in Nippon. However, they are also fiercely independent and even after attaining independence from Tamna they refused to remain subject to Yamato and were even extraordinarily hesitant to join the Nipponese Empire. If it were not for they hesitancy, the Fokuoka Daimyos could have a real chance to steal the coveted title of Nipponese Emperor.

Kingdom of Nan

In time past the Yue dominated the region. At its height, Yue China ruled over the majority of the Chinese cultural sphere. However, this would not last. When Tamna came Yue was already in stagnation and suffering from corruption. They managed to finally push out the Tamnese, but the damage was done. It was not long before the Yue were replaced by a new dynasty, the Nan (South). Nan went on to create an empire over all of southern China, while their counterpart the Bei ruled all of the north. This too, however, would not last. Revolts in central China, on both sides of the Nan-Bei border, resulted in the emergence of the Zhong. Nan has since turned its attention toward the sea, where it is now fighting to overcome the Tamnese and attain naval and commercial supremacy. Nan is the oldest power in China, but its golden age may yet come.

Kuni of Naniwa

After the collapse of the Yamato, the daimyos of Osaka took several steps to secure their position in the region defeating opponents in always powerful Kyoto and strong rival Kobe. This regional competition prevented the Osaka Daimyos from securing their position as the Nipponese Emperors, but now that regional competitors are defeated Naniwa and the Osaka Daimyos can focus on greater achievements and perhaps even steal the title of Emperor of Nippon from the Heijokyo Daimyos.

Kingdom of Qi

At the height of Joseon Qi found itself under their rule. During this period they began to grow more commercial. This was only heightened under Tamnese rule. After return to the Bei, Qi found itself completely incompatible with the Confucian, agrarian Bei. After a grand revolt Qi emerged independent and in control of the valuable Shandong and Liaoding Peninsulas. Qi is now one of the three mercantile powers of the Eastern Sea, along with Nan and Tamna. However, both Bei and Joseon have their eyes on its valuable territory. Qi has an uncertain future, as does the whole of the region.

Tamnese Empire

Under the leadership of Empress Seondeok the Great and later Empress Jindeok the Reformer Tamna not only shook off the shackles of oppression, but managed to conquer a vast maritime empire that at times included everything from the Shandong and (majority of the) Korean Peninsulas, to vast amounts of the Chinese coastline, to the islands of Liuqiu [Taiwan], Kyushu, Shikoku, and the Ryukyus. Tamna is now the greatest naval, commercial, and political power in the region with influence extending far inland in China. Their supremacy is constantly under threat from Qi, Nan, and the Nipponese Empire, but overall they remain the power of the region.

Kingdom of Zhong

The Zhong long lived under domination by either the Nan southerners or the Bei northerners. It was their rebellion that brought the two great dynasties to their knees. Now, they are the weakest power in China and are dependent on Tamna for support. If not for Tamna, the Zhong might well have been conquered already and would be conquered now. Zhong has great potential sitting at the centre of China, but they are dependent on the crutch of Tamna and not likely to relieve themselves of that dependency any time soon.
 
Spoiler Nation Descriptions Continued :

Europe

Kingdom of Brittany

The loss of Cornwall and Lutetia was too much for the ruling family to take, and after a bloody civil war a new line was started by Erispoë the Great. Only one generation later the kingdom seemed on the brink of another civil war as the economy plummeted with the dying out of the Tin Route at the end of the Bronze Age. In desperation the monarchy slaughtered much of the populous to maintain order, which they did. Having weathered economic collapse, land loss, and civil unrest the monarchy has taken advantage of Akitania to salvage itself. Their future is uncertain, but Brittany holds enormous potential.

Caledonian Confederation

Under the influence of King Calgacus of the Caledonii the Picts were brought together in the Caledonian Confederation. They proceeded to win the northern Britons, create a puppet state in Kent, and later take Erin holdings in Pictland. They are a strong nation with ample opportunity to dominate the region, but there are many forces in the nation that would prefer isolationism and neighbours in Eire who would prefer the same for Pictland.

Kingdom of Dacia

As culture has spread northwards in Hellas, Thrace became the new Macedon, then Moesia the new Thrace, and Dacia the new Moesia. If Moesia is any sign, Dacia has the potential to rise to the greatest power of the region. However, if Macedon and Thrace are examples, they have the potential to be quickly overrun by more cultured neighbours. Allied to Troy, they have bought themselves time to develop and choose their future.

Kingdom of Eire

The British Wars were a great benefit to Eire, as they gained Wales, Cornwall, and much of West Britain, including Stonehenge itself. Eire is the dominant country of the region utilizing its economic, religious, and social powers to its advantage. However, there is strong competition from Caledonia (to whom they have already lost once), because of whom Eire will need to remain ever vigilant if they wish to remain on top and not fall prey to their Pictish neighbours.

Gallic Empire

Under pressure from Brittany and the Lombards the Gauls gradually developed their tribes into kingdoms. One of these kingdoms, the Parisii, had actually seceded from the Bretons. The Parisii would eventually conquer the rest of Gaul and turn their regional capital of Lutetia Parisiorum into the Gallic cultural and political centre of Paris. The Gallic Empire is merely a regional power, but it has great potential. If its agricultural and cultural potential were developed, it is any person’s guess what could emerge.

Latin Union

As the Lombard League’s vast empire entered its dying days, the fringes of the empire began to be infiltrated by Latin culture. Eventually, two independent kingdoms were declared: the Kingdom of Barca and the Kingdom of Æmonia (which also included Pannonia). Soon, however, Barca and Æmonia united with Rome to form the Latin Union. A rising power with great potential, they appear destined for greatness.

Lombard League

The Lombard League has a long history as the big man of Italy and the Ventral Mediterranean. Along with their dependency in Helvetia, the Lombards conquered most of the North-Central Mediterranean and extend their sphere of influence up to the borders of Hellas. Since then, however, they have fallen greatly. They only barely protected themselves and Western Europe from the Moesians, and they suffered for it. The Latin Union has risen as a direct threat to Lombard hegemony and others are emerging as well. It is time for the future of the Lombard League to be decided, whether this will be a rise to regain and surpass past successes, or continue their decline as others take front stage.

Muntuan Empire

Muntua rose out of war, fighting to supremacy in the Iberian interior. Riding the wave of military success, they destroyed the Basque kingdom and pushed them north into Gaul; then they headed south and conquered the Tartessians, wiping the great port of Tartessos permanently off the map and eradicating all that remained of Tartessos’ great influence on Iberian culture. From there they pushed across the Straights of Heracles to the African pillar. There, they conquered the native Berbers and created a trade connection to the Sahara and that which lay beyond. Muntua is a rising power in the world, but they could still be crushed by the more powerful nations of the Central Mediterranean.

Protectorates

Akitania

As Muntua grew in power; it naturally turned to the Basque territories. The Basques, deathly frightened of the Muntuan hordes, retreated further and further east. Eventually, the very homeland of the Basques was taken, forcing the majority to flee north-east into Gaul and the region they new as Akitania [Aquitaine]. Here, they fought desperately and displaced the native Gauls. However, they were still not safe, so they turned to the Bretons for safety. As a Breton protectorate Akitania has survived as the last outpost of Basque society, but they are still weak and sit on very valuable territory.

Helvetia

For a long time Helvetia reigned supreme among the Celts and posed a constant threat to the Lombards and other southerners. However, their empire slowly began to fall apart and they were forced to become dependent on the Lombards. Under Lombard leadership they have constructed a new kingdom and, even as a protectorate, Helvetia is one of the more powerful nations of the region. Their future is uncertain, perhaps they will grow in confidence and demand independence, or perhaps they will learn again the necessity of Lombard protection.

Kent

When Erin encroachment forced the collapse of the Briton Confederation, the eastern kings declared independence. Of these new, small kingdoms, Kent was the most powerful. Quickly absorbing its neighbours, Kent found itself the new target of Erin imperialism. In order to secure independence and the survival of their culture, they accepted the position of a Caledonian dependency. The following Second War of the Isles, resulted in a Caledonian victory, the checking of Erin expansion, and the securing of Cantiaci independence. Kent is now much more naval and extrovert than its Pictish rulers in Perth, which has resulted in an odd situation. Though Kent is the dependency, in many ways it dictates much of Caledonian foreign policy. If this will result in an emergence of Cantiaci independence or a suppression of this independence by the Pictish overlords, or something else all together, is completely unpredictable.
 
IsrNES4 II: Un G-tt Lacht

LONG LIVE CARTHAGE!!! :D :D :D :D
 
I had the hardest time deciding. I love both the NESes. But Yosef because I love the timeline.
 
YosefNES! I've been re-reading that althist, and I want it badddd. :p
 
Both seem quite interesting, but in YosefNES I would have a better idea of what the hell is going on. I do think you should update the map quickly, before more mistakes are made. Not sure what am I interested in, though. Why is the HRE so united? :p
 
YosefNES1 for certain.
 
I support a YosefNES in which Israelite9191 revives Byzantion, perhaps with those Palaiologoi finally being replaced with a Hungarian dynasty, sort of like what Catherine the Great wanted to do (and did, in das' Tsar Pavel TL). If such a thing occurs, I will certainly assist in the ongoing development of the TL itself...;)
 
Yosef.

Hey, look, an Amazonian civilization for once. Thumbs up.
 
What year is it?
In that map 1343, by the start of the NES closer to 1500. By that point India will be pretty divided and competing desperately to maintain economic strength (and independence) with the Ottoman Empire and probably China.
Both seem quite interesting, but in YosefNES I would have a better idea of what the hell is going on.
Go read the IsrNES2 updates. Or ask me questions via thread/PM. I am always happy, and eager, to answer those.
I do think you should update the map quickly, before more mistakes are made.
That would probably be a good idea. Anyone willing to do that? :p
Not sure what am I interested in, though. Why is the HRE so united? :p
Most Serene Republic of Italy and the united crown of Bohemia and Bavaria-Munich. I didn't anticipate this in the begining, but the HRE seems to be headed to an early death in TTL. If you have any questions on which nations I'm predicting for glory (or anyother questions to help you along in choosing a reservation, should you want one) feel free to ask.
I support a YosefNES in which Israelite9191 revives Byzantion, perhaps with those Palaiologoi finally being replaced with a Hungarian dynasty, sort of like what Catherine the Great wanted to do (and did, in das' Tsar Pavel TL). If such a thing occurs, I will certainly assist in the ongoing development of the TL itself...;)
Unfortunately, there is no way that is going to happen. For an idea of just how screwed the Byzantines are in terms of recreating an empire, or even a viably independent state, look at the second paragraph of this post.
Yosef.

Hey, look, an Amazonian civilization for once. Thumbs up.
Amazon was much more developed than lay people tend to realise. For more information see the book 1491, not to be confused with the horribly innacurate and discretited 1421. (Critical reviews can be found here, here, and here)
The India on the map is still 1343; given that the PoD didn't affect India all that much, I have no doubt that the Delhi Sultanate will implode as in OTL.
Precisely.
 
Go read the IsrNES2 updates. Or ask me questions via thread/PM. I am always happy, and eager, to answer those.

I know that. My point still stands. :p

Most Serene Republic of Italy and the united crown of Bohemia and Bavaria-Munich.

That's beside the point. I was talking about the mostly-unified German nation on the map. I understand its a simplification, it just looks weird.

In any case, I think I'll take the Golden Horde. Should be a nice challenge, and I have developed an affinity for evil-ish Turkic empires (see DisNES II and DNES2).

Amazon was much more developed than lay people tend to realise. For more information see the book 1491, not to be confused with the horribly innacurate and discretited 1421. (Critical reviews can be found here, here, and here)

I think that was pretty much his point. However, that does sound quite interesting.
 
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