Prime Election Debate hosted by Poverty's Pub Guild

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

So you are suggesting the Tribal Council got an "unfoolish Chief", whereas Triad Coalition got a "foolish Chief"? Do you really think it is that simple?

Do you really think we ignore people and Tribal Council do not? Do you really think it is that simple?

If I was half as sinister as you suggest KWP, I would be leader not NZL, and be assured he got his own mind, as he votes what he wants. Yet, we share a common sentiment, which is why he is in the Warlords Faction, not Tribal Council. Denying us that sentiment I find at best mildly authoritarian, and not consistent with what Tribal Council claims to be.

I never suggested that you were synister, nor foolish, nor even the chief of the Triad. I was only stating a common point of truth. I was simply defending our actions and words. However, as you state, nothing is ever simple.

As for newness to the demogame and one faction having more knowledgible or more seasoned individuals and another faction having less seasoned individuals or people who may simply just be newer to the metagame process and demogames in general...consider this: I am also new, and yet, I appear to be one of the most outspoken proponents of this demogame and its principles. I do not "want to rule" as you say. In fact, I have recommended others before myself, as can be varified by looking at the Tribal Council thread. I submit that I have more availability during the day than many to enjoy these forums, but there will come a time when I may not be seen here for days at a time, due to changing work and R/L requirements, but I will still strive to be as outspoken of my appreciation for the concept and the community here.

Furthermore, this comment:

Only a foolish Chief, a Chief unfit to rule, ignores the will of the people. We ignore no one. Speak your mind and you will be heard.

Was in reference to the bolded text of the same thread in which it originally appeared, concerning how the council can overthrow the chief.

 

[Ballazic]

I think its fair to point out just because our faction has "new" blood, meaning new to demo games, that doesn't mean we don't have civ skills. Our coalition is full of really good civ players, in my humble opinion that is very important. All this metagame stuff is fun, but we make it up.

The coalition is neither unready or too unexpierenced to lead our nation to greatness. I think this fear mongering and dirty tactics displayed by tribal, shows fear, and tells the voter that tribal wants the voter to vote for them because they are not coalition. The people of this game are too smart for that.

 

[Rashiminos]

If you want your voice to be heard and matter, vote Triad. If you want your voice to be heard and ignored, vote Tyrant, sorry, I mean Tribal Council.

: Fear Mongering/ Dirty Tactics?

I acknowledged that mistake, very much unlike you and a few others that is firmly within the tribal camp, that never did apologize wrongs even when it was obvious and most agreed.

: Fear Mongering/ Dirty Tactics?

but there is not much roleplay from the tribals camp, and their platform is void of personality and full of generic statements about "flexibility", "openness", "democracy" and so on.

: Fear Mongering/ Dirty Tactics?

we are easier to remove than a Zerg-like entity that proclaims they can do it all with flexibility and minimum rules, where Triad is fatalistic, locked, too many rules and so on.

: Fear Mongering/ Dirty Tactics?

I will just warn new players that there are a few unwritten rules, acted out within this game, that the tribals seem to follow, rules not explicitly stated in order to win more voters, but crypto-rules still in effect. Do not expect it to be YOUR flexibility, YOUR influence or YOUR vision to be enacted in the game, as tribals is firmly into the hands of 3-5 core players, and they may or may not listen to you. There is a reason they want to close out the smaller factions

: FM/DT? (getting lazier here)

If you believe in that smaller factions should also run the game, not a generic mass with no true core identity, please vote Triad.

: FM/DT?

Triad represents a much needed renewal to the demogame genre, whereas Tribal is more of the old.

: FM/DT?

@Ballazic, I'm not so sure you need to be taking the supposed high ground of the Triads not resorting to certain tactics which you have labeled a certain way.

All of the the questions about the quotes being examples of fear mongering and/or dirty tactics are meant rhetorically, but you can answer them at your leisure.

 

[DaveShack]

Let's move on to another question. The current question is on how "democratic" the factions are, I'm also interested in a similar but different aspect of this.

My question (as a citizen) is on the apparent dichotomy of role players vs non-role players, where there appear to be more role players in the Triad than in the Tribal Council, both on a percentage basis and in raw numbers. I make no secret of the fact that I don't produce a lot of RP material. This is mostly a factor of time -- the amount of time it would take me to produce a story that I'd be proud of is far too prohibitive for my RL time constraints.

Q: What specifically will your faction (coalition) do to ensure that both role players and people who can't or don't want to role play have equal access to direct participation in the democracy game?

==============================
I yield to Triad and reserve the balance of my time.

 

[NZL]

Again, i'm not big on diplo talk, just quoting here..

Answer on DaveShack:

1. For the gameplay-players:
This is quoted from the Triad Faction Platform.

...We plan frequent polls and threads to discuss national interests...

2. For the roleplay-players:
This is quoted from DaveShack's post right above mine

...where there appear to be more role players in the Triad than in the Tribal Council, both on a percentage basis and in raw numbers...

 

[Oni of Chaos]

And therefore more people to create and lobby for role player's interests.

 

[Methos]

How would both factions react to outside organizations who wish to take part in political matters without being part of either faction?

For instance, I've considered creating either a merchants guild, church based on whatever religion we get, lobbying party, or some other interesting group that isn't already covered by another player. This group would maintain their neutrality and work with whatever government was in power at that time. Would the factions listen to such a group?

I'm fairly positive of the Tribal Council's answer, so my question is more towards the Triad.

Off-Topic: Even though I'm a member of a faction, do the rules allow me to create a separate group that is neutral?

 

[ravensfire]

@Methos - yup! See the Pub ..

-- Ravensfire

 

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

Question to the Triad: How are the disputes between your three subfactions going to be resolved?

 

[DaveShack]

Interesting -- Triad plans frequent polls? Reducing the number of polls and increasing the role of the leaders was one of the core beliefs which led us to a faction ruleset to begin with. Acting despotic was one of the core beliefs which led us to a civics based faction system. Yet when faced with an election challenge, polls, which were going to be rare, will now be frequent?

Tribal Council has always said that input from the people matters. It's not a new thing for us. Whether it comes by discussion or polling depends on how things go.

Still, whether discussions and polls are frequent or not is not the question being asked. The question is, how will the roleplay vs non-roleplay division be handled.

Tribal Council will take specific, measurable steps to ensure that roleplay needs are covered. We plan to adjust the timing of gameplay to facilitate roleplay, and the needs of roleplay will factor into in-game decisions.

The opposite can not be said of roleplay enthusiasts with respect to gameplay. Some roleplay enthusiasts have even suggested playing the game in a way which will lead to poor in-game results. A strong well-played game is anathema to some, who think success in-game means the "civ pros" had too much influence. On the contrary, playing well means the underlying game is a stable foundation on which to base an economy, stories, and any other roleplay that comes to mind. At the very beginning of the discussions for this game a question was asked -- play a roleplay game or a civ game. When roleplay had a strong showing, the next question was whether we should have two games, one for roleplay and one for civ. The civ players chose to come here and have one game.

Tribal Council offers a game where role players have complete freedom to take their roles anywhere they want to go, and game players can still do what they do best. It will be a game where the 1st term builds a strong foundation, but guided in the direction our citizens want to go. We'll make the most of whatever situation we find ourselves in, so that later when we choose to take a risk for story's sake it isn't risking a humiliating defeat.

 

[Shattered]

Methos: We encourage any and all members to join, or start a guild. Faction membership matters not when it comes to guild members. If your guild has good ideas, not taken by another guild, you will have the Triad's full support in both RP and governmental involvement. It all depends on how involved the guild will want to be. If they want to be a mainline guild, such as a merchant guild, or any guild involving heavy RP, you will not only have the Triad's support, but also my own personal support, as this is what I see the game is lacking as of now. Guilds promote ideas and fun roleplaying, and should be kept separate from the metagaming of the factions. We want to encourage out of faction interaction and roleplay, as faction talk can be kind of static, as we have seen here. Know that under Triad leadership, we already have plans for an economic system, a land grant system, and many other RP elements that guilds will be apart of.

KWP: We have the Chamber of the Triad for that. Any matters that are not resolved through inter-faction talks are taken to the Chamber of the Triad, which consists of the three faction leaders, Me, NZL, and Strider. It is here that all disputes, (not involving courts or laws) will be settled. Nuff said.

 

[DaveShack]

we already have plans for an economic system, a land grant system, and many other RP elements that guilds will be apart of.

Plans which could (and almost certainly would) be used by Tribal Council if we are chosen. No sense in letting good ideas go to waste.

BTW have we mentioned local politics? The Tribal Council approach to this is to have each citizen designate their location, either in a city or with a unit. The people connected with a decision should have greater say in the course of action we take, and should reap greater rewards in roleplaying benefits from those actions.

 

[Shattered]

Still, whether discussions and polls are frequent or not is not the question being asked. The question is, how will the roleplay vs non-roleplay division be handled.

Tribal Council offers a game where role players have complete freedom to take their roles anywhere they want to go, and game players can still do what they do best. It will be a game where the 1st term builds a strong foundation, but guided in the direction our citizens want to go. We'll make the most of whatever situation we find ourselves in, so that later when we choose to take a risk for story's sake it isn't risking a humiliating defeat.

You have me here DS, as I wholly choose RP over civ playing. We want people to RP. We want people to think outside the box, create new atmospheres, and have the freedom to do so whenever they want. Metagame can be fun, but when it comes down to it, this is a forum game, not a single player civ game. We want RP to be the main factor that powers the civ game, not strategies and metagaming. The Triad plans to make our government, and RP, a symbiotic relationship. More decisions will be made in character than OOC, and this doesnt mean we strive for a poorly played game. In fact, its quite the opposite. We will play the civ game in character, and why would we want to cause the downfall of ourselves? In our coalition, no one will be put down for making a bad civilization gaming decision. We want all people in out factions, RP or not, to have a say in the world. Yet, you can be rest assured, our leaders and top players will RP.

 

[Shattered]

BTW have we mentioned local politics? The Tribal Council approach to this is to have each citizen designate their location, either in a city or with a unit. The people connected with a decision should have greater say in the course of action we take, and should reap greater rewards in roleplaying benefits from those actions.

Copying of our ideas is the main reason we have separate factions, so that we will be measured to lead on our own ideas. It is fine you have adapted your decision to be slightly different from ours, but in essence, its the same idea we have.

Onto other things. The Triad seeks to make this demo-game feel like you are living in a breathing world, and not just playing a game. This, we feel, is what separates us from the Tribals.

 

[Rashiminos]

Let's add another question to the queue...

However, we have already researched all leaderhead (Alexander) synergies with all the civilizations in BTS.

Since you brought up the topic...
How would the "leaderhead synergies" of Alexander compare versus Huayna Capac for each and every civ?

 

[Provolution]

I would prefer we had sectorial debates, to divide metagame from in-game issues. Note, I already posted an in-character thread for a debate on leaderhead choice, no one even cared to respond.

 

[Rashiminos]

I would prefer we had sectorial debates, to divide metagame from in-game issues. Note, I already posted an in-character thread for a debate on leaderhead choice, no one even cared to respond.

The question has been copied to that thread, continue your answer there if you want.

 

[Provolution]

I leave that to Shattered and Daveshack for now.

 

[DaveShack]

On local government...

Copying of our ideas is the main reason we have separate factions, so that we will be measured to lead on our own ideas. It is fine you have adapted your decision to be slightly different from ours, but in essence, its the same idea we have.

Ahem, I refer you to this post from October 2007, and subsequent discussion, where I started putting some flesh on an idea started by grant2004 (note giving credit to the 1st person to post on that idea chain). Of course, character stats and locality of events are nothing new in the gaming world, they have been around as long as RPGs. Nor is the idea of local government in CFC DemoGames. What is different is a commitment to actually do it, here in this game.

 

[Methos]

As the pub door opens, a giant of a man enters, stooping to clear the doorway. As he straightened up you see a weathered face, long disheveled hair, and clothes made from animal hide. At his side is a large ornate knife made of bone. It’s obvious the weapon has seen much use.

“People of this city, let me introduce myself. I am Timus the Protector. I offer you my services as Chief to this city. “

He looks around the crowd. “My tribe has wandered these lands for many generations, but recently under the rule of my father my tribe was slaughtered. Few of us survived and few of us maintained our freedom. I know what it means to lead. These lands are dangerous and I promise you I will keep you safe, for so long as I breathe. I maintain that I will seek to grow this city during my reign. That is my promise to you.”