1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Prince is too easy, King+ is unenjoyable

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by snuggans, Dec 23, 2018.

  1. Giskler

    Giskler +1 Sleuthing

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    2,323
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Norway
    Civrinn likes this.
  2. Mr. Shadows

    Mr. Shadows Nomad of the time streams

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2015
    Messages:
    603
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Incheon, R.O.K.
    As you turn up the difficulty Stonehenge becomes a low-percentage wonder because the ai prioritizes it and WILL be able to start it before you due to their bonuses. You have to adjust to playing catch-up in the early game because the AI starts with so much. IMHO Stonehenge is only really an option with China, and even then probably isn't worth the risk for the reward. You're going to have to build Holy Sites anyway. We all wish the ai got smarter at higher difficulties instead of just adding brute bonuses but that's the way it is.
     
  3. kryat

    kryat Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2017
    Messages:
    537
    Gender:
    Male
    As has been said here already, it’s also a really good idea to recognize the power of projects. It’s easy to get caught up always building new stuff, but projects can give your empire the little boost you need to get great people (especially the great prophet). I didn’t fully appreciate projects until I heard Ed on a stream reference using them to make sure could found a religion. Now if I’m playing as Spain, Khmer, India, or Georgia I will definitely use projects before I build shrines to make sure I get the religion, then after I get it, start boosting my faith output.
     
    Trav'ling Canuck likes this.
  4. row2infinity

    row2infinity Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2018
    Messages:
    85
    Gender:
    Male
    Everything below immortal is easy.

    Moderator Action: If you haven’t anything productive to say to help the OP, please refrain from posting. In the context of this thread, this is nothing but trolling the OP. — Browd
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 24, 2018
  5. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2006
    Messages:
    11,076
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    20% difference actually. :p
     
  6. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2018
    Messages:
    2,879
    Gender:
    Male
    The power of projects is a "hidden" choice in Civ 6 that doesn't naturally spring to mind. The current build queue layout, with projects at the bottom, suggest to a new player that they should find something to build in the list of things above the projects, and take a project only if there's nothing left to build. Often the opposite is true if you're behind the AI and trying to win: projects are very valuable, often more useful than anything you can build when you're trying to catch up to the AI or secure a victory.

    I noticed the updated production screen in Civ 6 moves projects to a different tab, which may help with the intuitiveness of projects vs units/buildings.
     
    Stilgar08, TheDouche and kryat like this.
  7. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2005
    Messages:
    4,602
    Gender:
    Male
    That's enough to lose Stonehenge for sure.

    And dang Emperor's 40% AND a additional settler.

    That's pretty pathetic. :lol: Though nothing is as pathetic as pre-BNW Civ 5 where Chieftain was the actual fair difficulty basically being a flat out lie. And they still can ignore negative GPT and are practically immune to unhappiness.. SOOO, when anyone comments on the genius AI there....
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2018
    MooFreaky likes this.
  8. Icicle

    Icicle Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2016
    Messages:
    436
    It's always cute how as soon as a new game comes out the previous game instantly becomes the best game ever made.
     
    MooFreaky and Depravo like this.
  9. Bitterman

    Bitterman Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2018
    Messages:
    196
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Granada, Spain
    What is so good about Stonehenge anyways? I mean it takes massive production precisely in the most critical turns of the game (i.e. the first 50 turns) and in return only gives +2 faith per turn and a Great Prophet with a religion you can do nothing with because you don't have enough faith plus no infrastructure to get missionaires and apostles.

    Building Religious districts takes less resources and time and gives more faith per turn + infrastructure and GP points that can be complemented with cards and projects.

    Honestly one of the absolutely worse wonders of the game, not only because its poor benefits but also because it comes so early.

    PD: Also every single AI who have stone nearby will go for it.
     
    TheDouche and Depravo like this.
  10. Pietato

    Pietato Emperor

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2014
    Messages:
    1,449
    Location:
    New Zealand
    No.
     
  11. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2008
    Messages:
    4,037
    Location:
    Toronto
    I never even think about trying for stonehenge before, although sometime last year I had a game where I actually finished it at like turn 100 as China because literally nobody in the game liked wonders. But it still sucked, because you still need a holy site to build missionaries or apostles, and an AI converted my holy city before I even got a holy site built.

    As for religion otherwise, I play at Immortal and I find I can still grab one of the last religions about half the time if I really go for it. Build a holy site, capture a holy site, and most games there's enough non-religious folk that you can fight for a religion. Now, it does slow you down from building other districts, and obviously if you try and fail that's bad. Plus it does depend on which neighbours you have - my current game I'm lucky that Monty just sends a random apostle through now and then to convert city-states, and doesn't try to convert my cities.

    My main problems in games now is that the early game is similar all the time - settle your 2nd city, build up enough troops to fight off an AI swarm of warriors/slingers/archers, counter and beat them down, and then watch my army conquer the globe as my main cities turtle up and build gold/science/faith/etc... Sometimes I play more peacefully, or have lots of land to settle and go wider, but more often than not it's the same. But that being said, I do still find it fun to try to optimize and build and try out every civ, even if I know I should really do things totally differently. Sometimes I do wish I could "go back" and choose an option from earlier. Like, if I decide that I chose a belief wrong in my religion, would totally love to use up an apostle to swap it out for a new option. Like my current game, I chose the "30% cheaper apostles" card, but I realized that I really don't want to build a lot of apostles right now, and should totally have chosen something else that would give me a bonus that I can actually use instead.
     
  12. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2018
    Messages:
    2,879
    Gender:
    Male
    Stonehenge's ability to let you found a religion on it instead of a Holy Site does new players a disservice for the reason you note. It's much safer to save the Great Prophet it grants until you have a handful of Holy Sites (which also gives you more free city conversions).

    For the same reason, on higher difficulty levels even if you have a Holy Site to be safe you should wait until you have a nice stockpile of Faith defend your new religion.

    Obviously, founding a religion earlier gives you more choices for your beliefs, but only if you're not founding earlier than you can defend yourself.
     
  13. Legacy of Smiles

    Legacy of Smiles Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2018
    Messages:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Regarding Religion, it's not worth going for strategically unless your Civ needs a religion as a major part of their bonus. Civs like Russia, Greece and Poland are good at founding religions but don't necessarily benefit from it. The strategy to get a religion for a Civ like Spain is pretty tricky. I managed to consistently get a religion on an difficulty by:

    1. Beeline Holy Sites. You don't need the Eureka but it can help. You have a few turns of "free" production now - build a settler if possible (unlikely) or otherwise a scout (exploration for the Eureka) or an offensive unit for defence.
    2. Build a Holy Site/Temple in your city ASAP.
    3. Spam the Holy Site project until you recruit the great prophet, fail or get enough faith for patronage.
     
    Trav'ling Canuck likes this.
  14. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2005
    Messages:
    4,602
    Gender:
    Male
    The difficulty you play at = That's what everyone should play at.
    Your Difficulty -1 = only scrubs can't beat this level. I can't imagine how anyone can't do it. So ez man, just make knights LDO and win by turn 69!
    =< Your difficulty -2 = Do you even civ bro? I can beat it with 1 city blindfolded.
    Your difficulty +1 (Or your difficulty, but faster) = LOL I don't want to waste my life making spreadsheets on this crap! I have a life!
     
  15. Haggbart

    Haggbart King

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2010
    Messages:
    851
    Location:
    Norway
    Well, if you're at the gym and able to lift 200lbs in whatever exercise, the gap between 190 and 200 seems a lot more significant than the one between 180 and 190. The subjective nature of how difficulty "feel" relative to ones ability makes this discussion incredibly hard. Especially when people play the game in very different ways.

    However, there is an interesting point at the core: should all victory conditions be (more or less equally?) viable on all difficulty levels, and thus promoting many different styles? I do think that's at least a valid point, however I do not think AI winning Stonehenge very often is. I don't consider getting a single wonder a core part of the game. However one could argue that getting a religion is, but one could also argue that you can choose a civ that would equip you well to get a religion even on Deity if that is what you want to experience.

    I guess we all want better AI instead of more bonuses, but that's not gonna happen anytime soon. And I think the majority of Civ-players are fine with that, I realize that we make up a very small minority of the people who buy the game.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2018
    Icicle and Archon_Wing like this.
  16. NukeAJS

    NukeAJS King

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2008
    Messages:
    781
    There is a pretty steep increase in difficulty from king to emperor. As someone said before, I think this is because the AI starts with two settlers. That really just-starts their ... well ... everything.
     
  17. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2018
    Messages:
    2,879
    Gender:
    Male
    In addition to increasing the difficulty, the second (and third) settler for the AI and their extra starting Warriors at higher difficulty levels also changes the value of building an early Scout. The chances of finding tribal villages and getting free city state envoys are reduced by the increased visibility of the AI in the first two and three turns.

    If you enjoy the early scouting part of the game, it's best to stick to no higher than King.
     
  18. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2012
    Messages:
    3,212
    Capitals definitely spawn too close to each other for a version of Civ where ICS is utterly unchecked. It is just a matter of claim-jumping, and then having to roll the AI just to get them out of your way. I was playing Netherlands over the holidays, and was actually kind of glad to see Korea as a neighbor, since I figured I'd be able to have a good peaceful partner for an alliance. But geez, it just doesn't work when capitals are seven tiles apart. Sorry, Scumduck, but you asked for it, lady.

    You should be able to get religions and build wonders on King. Even Stonehenge is possible. But you can't just bang it out with hammers. You gotta harvest forest/stone.
     
  19. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2005
    Messages:
    4,602
    Gender:
    Male
    So I decided to play a game on King for fun, but to make things interesting I had to go for the best memes. Therefore:

    Settings: King, Fractal, All Standard, Rise and Fall, other DLC civs removed (So anyone can open the file if they have Rise and Fall)

    • Civ: Georgia. Normally I don't play as them because they're clearly too OP. Pikemen can defeat knights, and Khevsurs can beat everything else. All you need to do is go for Military Tactics and win. Also just convert City states to your religion.
    • No Magnus, or chopping at all. Resources may be removed by building a district or wonder over them. See, lumber mills are incredibly useful since they'll definitely return their value by like 20 years (in-game time). Also I like trees.
    • No warriors (except original warrior), swordsmen, or horse units. Only noobs use them That means basically Ships, Scouts, Spears, and Khevsurs. I can upgrade them though. As explained before this combo can beat everything (as long as you stay on hills)
    • I must found a religion, because do you even faith bro?
    • I must build Industrial Zones because they are critical to success. Sorry, that's not even funny as a joke.


    We have a nice hilly start here. I settle on the silk because irrigation is a terrible tech and also culture. Not much to chop here, but we're not doing it anyways. We're lucky enough to pop a builder from a hut!.

    This will be an easy game.... Oh wait.

    Spoiler :


    Spoiler :


    I founded a 2nd city on some coffee, which provides culture and bought a monument. With my capital building another monument that's some decent culture and we go for religion and run 2 sets of projects which also gives us Divine Spark. We get Autocracy at turn 57 though I was considering Oligarchy to boost our lone warrior and for our future memes. Oracle gets started and finishes like 15 turns later

    Hojo doesn't like my memes and tries to turn them into dreams, however he is repelled by 5 archers. I then wait for military tactics to stage a counter attack (Meanwhile, I build a campus, theater, and the Great Library.) Unfortunate Peter is around and steals writers so he'll need to die eventually.

    Spoiler :

    With the all powerful pikemen ready to utterly lay waste to Hojo's chariots, I am ready to attack.... with Khevsurs backup.

    Spoiler :

    Within a few turns his capital has fallen. This is clear proof Georgia is too strong.

    Meanwhile Kongo is nearby and the biggest threat to win the game. He must be dealt methodically, so I convert him to my religion to take advantage of Crusade. I also convert Babylon and get to send double envoys to them.

    Spoiler :


    Ez.

    Spoiler :


    With Kongo's cities under my control, I am far ahead now. However, Mapuche and Russia have lots of culture and it'll take forever to win a culture victory if they're allowed to exist.

    Spoiler :


    Russia has quite a bit of defense though, and to my shock, Khevsurs are starting to lose their punch. Fortunately, I convert their cities in the middle of a war, letting me farm era score which is even stronger with Georgia.


    The game has become rather drawn out, so I finally upgrade them to infantry (and later mech infantry). Norway gets taken out because he's in the way, and Mapuche has so much culture I have to wipe him out. Due to his imba +10 against me, I needed planes to quickly take him out. This just leaves us sitting around to win but Russia with what's left tries to attack in a last desperate attempt which fails, and I use the chance to take him out, winning the game. I also beat the crap out of Japan in the meantime because I can. Gilgabro is still bro though.

    Spoiler :


    See gg ez. I can't imagine why anyone can't do this. They shall take at tops 5 minutes if they actually care about getting better. I figured it out before computers were even invented. Instead people think civs like Sumeria or Aztec are actually good. They're nothing compared to Georgia. I even tested it. I set 1 Khevsur against an Eagle Warrior and a War cart, and the Khevsur won! Now I'm going to pretend this tone of voice isn't insufferable and repeat it like every single thread.

    Back to being serious, despite all this nonsense, we learn that....

    • Early game culture (especially t1 government and civics) is very important
    • You always need military to defend yourself early.
    • Likewise, since science and culture are weak, you need to focus on eurekas and inspirations
    • Trade routes for science/culture/gold are very good
    • Make good use of CSs, and prioritize good ones.
    • Projects, Projects, and more projects.
    • I only self built 2 Holy Sites. Rest were captured. Honestly even the 2nd one was redundant. You just need those projects to get faith and the prophet. Otherwise Science and culture districts are better, as well as trades. And no, don't build IZs.
    • Without a faith pantheon or a faith CS, setting up religion is just way too convoluted and often not worth it.
    • Despite doing all these suboptimal things, in reality, it is not like a normally played game by me wouldn't end up the same. It is simply more drawn out. Although honestly, I feel like this is true of every difficulty.
    • It is sorta funny seeing me legit play games from a while back that still perform worse than this game.
    • And of course, having more cities is better.

    Also despite never getting Steel until very late, I still can't build that UB. Yea....
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 1, 2019
    Icicle, Civrinn and Trav'ling Canuck like this.
  20. Caesar Augustus 27 BC

    Caesar Augustus 27 BC Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2019
    Messages:
    17
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    England
    King and Emperor are the difficulties I play most, I think they're both fine. Lately I've gotten the AI+ mod so played a few King games to see what that's like, and now I'm playing Emperor again with it on. King is just "normal" difficulty for me and Emperor makes it more of a challenge.
     

Share This Page