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Prince level research and production issues,

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by ThyGuy, Mar 17, 2009.

  1. ThyGuy

    ThyGuy Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Illinois
    I've finally managed to reach prince level (normal speed, fractual) and I can win about 50% of the time. I'm a pure SE economy person but I'm having some issues with research, major production issues, and minor economy problems.

    The AI power rating on the other continent is much higher than mine, no matter how many units I crank out. I have to produce so many units to attempt to match their power level that I kill my economy and research from expenses and end up getting DoW'ed on anyways.

    I've already played this map four times and still haven't managed a victory, so I'm asking someone else to give it a go and possibly give me a few hinters to my issues.

    My leader this map is Lincoln and to handicap myself, I've not allowed myself to get Stonehenge or the Oracle. I know this limitation seems stupid but it has helped me reach Prince and eventually (Maybe a month-ish from now) monarch.
     
  2. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    I have it hard tonight/tomorrow schoolwise, but I'll do a runthrough at some point this week possibly. I'm not really an "SE" player though...almost entirely hybrid (and hammers dominate my city counts).
     
  3. DaveMcW

    DaveMcW Deity

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    Cottages!!
     
  4. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Yes, I'll definitely be using cottages...

    Oh. You meant OP.

    SE (I hate SE/CE terminology, though not as much as the chessmaster there) =/= specialists only.

    Edit: I'll deliberately avoid warrior rushing, although that's a very high-yield opening before monarch.
     
  5. helemaalnicks

    helemaalnicks Warlord

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    I'll give it a try in a few. For me building oracle and stonehenge would be a bigger handicap then not building them, but ala, I probably won't build too many wonders, since lincoln doesn't have the traits for it. Shall I quit if Im winning? Or do you want me to win?
     
  6. Amao

    Amao King

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    Shanghai
    As i newbie prince level player to SE, i found this post very helpful for extreme SE. I replayed a few SE games i was trying, the new concept made total difference in my tech pacing.
     
  7. Crusher1

    Crusher1 King

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    Thanks for the link. Another important item I didn't mention in my post was a SE reaps greater benefits on Emperor through Deity. On Monarch and below the AI techs very slow and makes backfilling techs with trade much more problematic. Another difference is the tech path changes at higher levels. On Immortal + you don't need to self research Alphabet. You tech directly to Asthetics because as soon as you have it the AI will already have Alphabet at which point you trade Asthetics and one small tech for Alphabet and can start researching Currency. Manually teching Alphabet is only needed on the easier levels so you can get to Currency quick.

    Of course, on the lower levels your tech rate is a lot faster so you can still be successful using a SE. You just have to research more techs yourself.
     
  8. ThyGuy

    ThyGuy Chieftain

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    I kinda screwed up by saying I'm all SE. I do use cottages. So I guess I'm also hybrid.

    Totally up too you. I'm definitely not going to tell people to play my way. I usually post these to see how everyone else would work the map and study it. Watching games played on this forum have taught me just as much as when I'm playing myself.
     
  9. helemaalnicks

    helemaalnicks Warlord

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    500BC:

    Spoiler :
    I checked out the island, looks nice. I got 4 cities going @ 500 BC, teching currency atm. Im gonna raise and army later, prob construction, and kick louis off, then tech to space.
     
  10. Crusher1

    Crusher1 King

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    I'm not anti Cottage at all ^^. If you read my whole post at the end you see my favorite Philo leader is Liz, Cottages and the Civics that favor a CE, and power bulbing > rush buy rape.

    Every Leader is different and besides, their are a lot of ways to use a SE (primary source of Tech stems from beakers produced by scientist (raw beakers) and GS in the form of bulbing, settling, and academies - and Civics that favor a SE).

    Of course, with most SE you don't need to build a single cottage to power tech Pre Liberalism. Think Farm =D.

    Edit: I'll play the game when I get home from work.
     
  11. Amao

    Amao King

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    @Crusher1

    What I learnt from your post was the power of running scientists hard and early and how to deal with early :) caps. And also the power of Alphabet and Currency. The first one not only giving you the ability to broker tech, but also the building science, i have never tried this in early games. And the second one give you the ability to build money which was badly needed after REX or early conquering.
     
  12. ThyGuy

    ThyGuy Chieftain

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    @Crusher1

    *facepalm* :twitch:

    I've been building culture since I started the game and never once stopped to think, "Maybe I should build raw commerce or research in this city if it has nothing to do instead of making it do something unproductive." :confused:

    Hard learning is always the way it seems to go with me. :lol:
     
  13. michmbk

    michmbk Emperor

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    I've got a free night tonight - I'll give it a go in a few.
     
  14. Stewie0416

    Stewie0416 Who Cares?

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    @ Crusher
    Is it better to build research or wealth?? You seemed to be running a deficit the entire time in the link?
     
  15. Crusher1

    Crusher1 King

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    Usually Wealth because it allows you to run research at 100% for longer. I will build research if I'm already running my slider at 100%, have extra gold in the bank to maintain 100% slider ability even at a deficit, and am striving to finish an important tech Now.

    Say you are running 8 scientist in 4 cities early in the game with 4-5 happiness. At 100% slider and building research you will usually have more beakers per turn (than compared to wealth in gpt) because you have the Library giving a 25% bonus. Cities with very good production may produce more gpt but.....The problem is (when emphasizing research) you will have a huge deficit. So although building wealth doesn't give the same yield as research when compared Heads up, in the long run building Wealth is far superior because after running binary research (0% slider for X amount of turns) it allows you to run at 100% for a longer time frame an enhance your research by allowing all those libraries you have to really shine.

    So use binary research (if you have the excess gpt) or you're wasting beakers
     
  16. helemaalnicks

    helemaalnicks Warlord

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    library bonus doesn't apply if you build research.

    It's usually better to build wealth, the reason is:

    say you get 50, building research, it will be 50

    If you build wealth, you get 50 , since you'll usually have a deficit @ 100%, you can up the slider because of this extra 50. The slider is the thing with which you convert into , and the into actually DOES go through the library, netting you a 25% bonus, and an even bigger bonus if you build other buildings like it.
     
  17. Crusher1

    Crusher1 King

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    You've missed the point. 2 scientist and 2-3 commerce from land being worked is 8-9 beakers at 100% + 25% gives you 10-11 Beakers per turn. Now add the 1 - 3 hammers from the tiles being worked and you get 11-14 Beakers per turn when emphasizing research. For a small city to produce more than 11-14 gpt they would need 12-15+ base production.

    The rest of your post follows along with mine but with prettier Icons :).

    Is that to help you understand ^^ ??
     
  18. ThyGuy

    ThyGuy Chieftain

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    So any commerce or research I build from hammers does not get bonuses from buildings?

    OOOPS. :eek:

    Glad I learned that now instead of a few days later. :lol:

    Does chopping hammers get added to Research/Gold/Culture?

    Edit: The extra hammers created from buildings bonuses would be used for the R/G/C?
     
  19. helemaalnicks

    helemaalnicks Warlord

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    overflow doesn't work, chopping does i believe.
     
  20. michmbk

    michmbk Emperor

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    I slogged through long and tedious war as long as I could. Game is basically over, but I gave up. About 4% from domination win or a few more cities from getting the stupid game mechanics to allow a capitulation. No micro and automated workers after about the first 50 turns. Tried for super fast game, but the warring started to slow it all down at the end.

    Spoiler :

    Settled in place – since the resources on land except pig are crappy, started workboat first. Hostile villagers from hut – that sure sucked. And then this, on 13.3% odds.



    So great, no ability to explore or do anything. Pretty lousy start to this game. Settled NY here just because. It’s prince, I can get away with it.



    Wonder – will start settler spam now:



    I did that because I figured with PHI, a merchant will come out quick and mean for a ton of early game gold, which will lead to tech advantages. Boston and Philly here and here:





    My GLH merchant for a trade mission – this’ll mean 100% research forever.



    I’ll let Louis build a few wonders before I send horse units to kill him. Atlanta here – coastal cities everywhere to take advantage of GLH.



    And sure enough, I see this message:



    Gee, guess I need to take Louis for the mids. Settle my second merchant in Washington, and head towards COL for caste. Founded this:



    Opt for hindu though, to stay nice with Louis until I backstab him. Annoying that he won’t trade because it’s the two of us. Going to make it slightly tougher, as we may be behind the other continent. Oh well. Generate a third merchant on low odds, and settle him in Washington. Nice wonder here with lots of cities – jumpstart growth:



    Got the music great artist and settled in my cottage city. Then just decided no micro, settle all my great people in Washington, and build an army to destroy Louis, take mids and run rep. 50-75 turns of prep, and stack ready:



    Small stack, but most cities are producing units, mainly knights, so they’ll follow behind and Louis can’t keep up with that. Devastate two cities, losing a few cats, and give him 10 turns of peace for 3 techs:



    Enough time to bring a few more cats up. End of 10 turns, the march begins for the mids. 3 turns later, hello mids, and other neat stuff too:



    This is about to be my capital with Washington such a great GP farm. And a quick switch to rep and FR with these nice new shiny wonders. Meanwhile I was teching Astro to get some galleons over to meet my other friends. And I wipe Louis off the island…but, he apparently settled somewhere else too. Whatever, I can’t be bothered, so I take him as a vassal. Meet Joao and Justy, and immediately open borders – power of the GLH. Met the rest, and started amassing galleons and horse units. Sent my first stack toward Brennus, and before I knew it, had killed him. Rags is next. Too many cities producing cavalry for him to have a prayer:





    He gives in. I’m not really trying to outtech anyone, just producing mass cavalry to win with quantity, not quality. Next up, Kublai – while I’m beating him down, a backstab by Justy:



    Whatever – he can’t possibly outproduce me. I take enough of Kublai’s cities that he gives in:



    And now it’s 4 on 2 – Justy’s got no chance. Liberate most of Kublai’s cities back to him and gift him all my techs. Then just slog through war. I gave up after about an hour of beating him down. He won’t cap because of his stupid vassal. He was kind of close to a cheese AP win before I took a few more of his jewish cities. I wasn't paying attention to that, and actually was about 15 votes from losing a prince game. Whatever – after taking several cities and beating down his stacks, the game is over from here, just a matter of time. Too many cities and too much production, but the stupid game mechanics on capitulation won’t let him say uncle since he has Joao as a vassal, and I have crappy vassals like Louis. I’m 4% of land from domination too, so another 30 min or so of producing cavalry and the game would end. I'm certain that the one stupid city Louis settled on the other isle is the reason that Justy hasn't capped - stupid. Score and stats at this point:





    As you can see, it's clearly over, would just have to move all my troops to a few more cities and it'd be done, but I can't deal with any more of the tedium, since it's late on a worknight.

     

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