Principles of Provincial Creation

Octavian X

is not a pipe.
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I think we need a discussion on how we plan to divide up the provinces. I know there's a discussion now on how we deal with the current situation, but it would be good if we had a set of guildlines for the future.

That issues that should be decided (at least that I can think of) are few, but here's what I can think of:

1. Province borders themsevles
How should they be drawn? Should they follow the terrain? Who will keep a record of the maps? Or should we forgo all the drawing and instead list the names of cities that are in a certain province rather than hassling with lines?

2. Size of provinces
Should we count tiles so that all are equal in size, or do we measure by city and ensure each province has an equal number, or do we decide that 'size doesn't matter?'

3. Provincial naming
Not really an issue, I know, but just for thought. Do we allow first governors this right, or do we move toward more citizen input?
 
Well, not that it will change anything, but here's my opinion.

1) In order to enhance realism, I would think borders should be drawn by terrain. For example, borders of large forests, jungles, mountain ranges, or rivers. Even if terrain changes (ie clearing jungles), borders should still remain. When cities are added, borders are adjusted, however, according to current terrain.
2) Whenever a previous province gets too big (10 cities? 15?) then they should be divided in half, and cities will continue to be added to both.
3) Governors should get the right, but are encouraged to post polls and input.
 
I made up a provincial size guideline a long time ago. Basically, depending on map size, landmass, and landmass size, the size of provinces will vary. i.e., 60%, huge pangaea would need 18-20 cities per province on a huge map. Since this is most likely 70% continents (and knocks the total landmass down), I think 7-10 cities is fine. They can't be too large, otherwise we'd only have 3-4 provinces on one continent. They should be large enough though, to fit each civ already on our continent (That's about 5-7 provinces).
 
Personally, I think we can divide the land into existing running provinces and future provinces represented by territories. I cannot see the need for turnkey provinces except for filling in provincial governors. However, for most of us, it is not a blind question of tilesizes, number of built existing cities, planetary size and so on. We could abide by the topographical, economic, military, growth potential and the most important, land identity.

In present references, we already consider Zarnia a bountiful land, the Southern Diamond mountains, the Eastern Jungles and the Grapes of Wrath as landmarks.
What is more natural than making these provinces in progress. We should elect provinces of Military Governors that are in the process of expansion and provinces not even started yet. Provinces are not static, but provincial borders could be.
I would prefer for my mindmaps sake to follow the present Bountylands of Zarnia, Six Diamonds and Eastern Jungles, as people not spending time counting tiles, percentages, cityranges and so on would be confused in identifying a province right away.

Historically, this is the way empires are built, NOT turnkey provinces, but division into territories to BECOME provinces later on. America had the Tordesillas Treaty of 1497, where the Pope in 1497 divided South america into a Spanish Sphere and a Portuguese Sphere, todays Latin America and Brazil. The same applies to your sacred USA, many of the US States were Territories before they adopted statehood. I can also see Territorial Military Governors applying for Provincehood throughout the Term in which their territory is being settled, so this will create intereseting game dynamics.

I also disagree with that a three division now will generate 50 governors, that is populist jitter and propoganda, as we KNOW, dividing the Southern half of the continent into three-four-five sones would make ample work for a governor.
As it stands, we would land on some 7-10 cities in all the proposed provinces.

Work intensive
Topography
Resources
Terrain
Natural Borders
Mind-image without provincial lines
Pre-provincial terrirory concept
Military strategy and build queues required in territory
The fact we will deal with heartlands and frontiers
 
You want small territories, then provinces? Let's not complicate this... We've had decent sized provinces whenever an area got to about 3 cities. Why fix it if it isn't broken?
 
we are not fixing things, we are merely seeking to make borders that make sense in peoples minds, and Zarnia, the Six Diamond Mountains, Eastern Jungles are distinct.¨
It is a choice of city build default or terrain default. However, I agree that a province should be at 3 cities minimum before a territory turns into a province.
However, it is more practical and makes better sense in thread references, to divide into territories early on to be converted to fully fledged provinces later on.
 
But why have territories if they're going to be provinces anyway? Wouldn't it be much simpler to have just provinces? That way, you don't have rapidly fluctuating election cycles. From what I'm getting... if we're large enough, we could possibly have 15 territories, and say, 7 provinces. 22 elections that term. Then, we decide to merge the 15 territories into 3 provinces. 10 elections the next term. It fluctuates too much, not to mention, the demogame can't handle 30 total elections. (There's just not enough people, or discussion for that).

One of the problems we had in late DG1, DG2, (and whenever we have more than 12 provinces for that matter) is a lack of governor instructions. You have maybe half that number that are dedicated, and the other half occasinoally, or rarely posts instructions, or maybe there's no governor at all.
 
WEll, I never intended Territories to be Provinces with elections and so on, just ready formats of land we could turn into a province when that day arrives, combining approporiate territories into a Province as the colonization and conquests go by.
I will not challenge the tradition of the DG, but to the early definition of borders based on topography, land identity and so on - we need mindmap references that innvove peoples in strategy discussion with ready concepts on hand.

We should use governorships actively to involve people in the game, keep it alive, and I agree, not to make too many governorships. I guess that the Southern continent will stay at 4-5 provinces.
6 Diamonds may well include future Babylonia and the Steppes, Wastelands include Rome and some good lands down to the Iroquois. Also, we should not consider other nations land part of our province until we have conquered that city.
 
Being a Newbie, albeit one on the verge of a Ministry, I'm kind of blank on the DG "Tradition" regarding Provinces.

Looking in past legal books, I could find no Article, Law, or Standard pertaining to the official creation of other Provinces.

Now, looking over past Domestic Duties, it seems to me that the Domestic Minister was in control of Build Queues except for within bounded Provinces. (I could be wrong, though...)

Right now, the only "bounds" we have for Zarnia are the Coastlines and possibly the "Controled Territory" of our Rivals.

One of the goals of the first half of my term, whether as Minister or Deputy, will be to put before the People a "Legal" method of creating new Provinces. This would likely be in the Code, within the bounds of Article O as well as others that may come up. (For example, mid-term Governorships would be bound by Article G unless I could get a JR saying that "Newly Created" Posts would not be governed by Article G until the beginning of a new term.)



I personally approve of our inertial mandate (or is this the standard tradition?) of letting a basic governor reatin control of cities within certain pre-provincial regions, transfering control to a new Governor when the area became a full Province. (This also means I support Provolution's idea of Territories, with the caveat that Old Governors control the build queues of Territories under the jusrisdiction.)

In other words, it would be like a single-cell organism: Zarnia -> Zarnia + Some Territories -> Zarnia, Province #2 + Territories, Province #3 -> Zarnia, Province #2 + Territories, Province #4, Province #3 + Territories -> etc.

Okay, time for a demonstration map. I am using my recent carving line wish list. (EDIT: This is being used only for demonstration purposes. Merits of the plan itself can be discussed in the other thread.)

Purple would represent the first cut, between Zarnia and the South. I would also establish the Yellow lines to be "Territorial Bounds", i.e. the area within is not divorced from the main Provincial Capital just yet.

In this situation, Zarnia's Governor would control not only Fanatikku, Immo, and the Wine City, but also Zojoji and the Odowara until such times as the Northern or Eastern Territories respectively got enough Cities. (Each could do so individually... Eastern Territory could easily turn into "CisRoman-Japatanica" or what have you before the Northern Territories gets even a 2nd city.

The other Governor would control Furuyama, and Epolenep, plus the Cattle Farms, though the last is in the "Southeastern Teritories" and would be part of a New Province when enough cities in that region are settled/conquered/etc.

Of course, this is only an example and is not at all binding. (Border plans would have to be approved by WOTP before Territories can be recognized.)

Using Territories in this manner would give us a continuity of management, while allowing us to follow Article O as best as we are able. ("Well ahead of Expansion", remember?)
 

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SD3

I would not exactly fall to my knees on the DG history unwritten and unpolled rules, that certain citizens use in order to promulgate a quite ordinary, yet even quite mediocre vision on how to run things. It is high time to recognize that on different planets, different solutions for setting up provinces. I will not let some arbitrary figment of the imagination or thought up principle from another DG in the past dictate this particular DG we play. Playing a DG is all about making joint decisions, and letting past DG games effectively run this one with our marginal approval, would ruin many of ours game experience and entertainment. So I will with these words honor the visualization of provinces not dictated by past tradition, but allow us to think freely (yeah yeah and the cliche "democratically") around the border issue.

Yet, no one can fail to identify that Six Diamonds is an established term already, a province that already has a life in our minds, and that territorial division now saves a lot of headaches for the long run.
 
I like flow of this thread already. Having been involved with Provincial borders for the first four DGs, I think it's time I stepped back and let new ideas flow across our maps.

Both Provolution and Sir Donald III have shown us they are thinking beyond the next step in planning. Their visions have been laid out in detail with both text and maps. I suggest we let these two work as a committee for the creation of Provincial borders (we could call it the CPB). They could discuss and have a working progression of ideas right here in the Citizens subforum. These two Leaders could enevitably see this as part of their elected positions, each keying on the continued land area growth of our nation, whether by Military conquest, natural expansion, or what have you.

This would centralize the Provincial borders project and give us, as citizens, a working map to consider as it changed and transformed to one or two or three of the final products (maps) that we were to vote on (WOTP approval).

Sound like a good idea?
 
Cyc

I agree on the proposed comittee setup, but this should be centralized under the Domestic Minister, in line with his mandates. Additionally, it is a matter of presentation to have ready names on landmarks inside and outside provinces, when I am going to explain military/exploration strategy to the public, and especially when we are discussing military options in a spatial context. Sir Donald 3, as other citizens has provided good visions on land divisions, and I will also step back from setting up the provincial borders per se, but will supply military maps (granted I win the Military Advisor position) that will be discussed and polled.

This provincial border committee should in that case be lead by the Domestic Minister (expanding external borders), but have inputs from the Culture Minister (influencing external borders) and the Military Minister (conquering external borders) as they both should promote Japanatican culture in the maps and to promote divisions, landmark names and terms useful to military planning.
Minister (conquering) external borders
 
I thank his Honor the Chief Justice and the current Foreign Minister (Soon to be First General-Elect) for their support.

Actually, I could be considered to be redirecting the flow. The posts from the previous week were dealing with the Physical Realities of Provinces, i.e. where the boundary lines should fall. My recent post shifts the focus to the "Legal" Realities, i.e. How and when the boundary lines should "fall".

Again, I hope to make this a focus of my early service, and possibly in the "transition" period.
 
Jumping the gun on the entire territorial conquest here a bit aren't we Provo? While I am in favor of wars for more breathing room I know that some citizens are not. Could we have a proposal on provincial creation factoring in our future expansion but not future conquests please?

I like your plan to divide up territory by geography SD3
 
The Constitution said:
Article O:
The area contained within the national boundaries of Japanatica
shall be divided into areas called provinces, each of which
is under the control of a Governor as stated in Article E. of the
Constitution. These boundries must be defined and approved by
the House well ahead of expansion, and may extend beyond the
cultural boundaries.
City locations shall be determined by the
Will of the People.

Hm... looking at it now, Article O has a tighter line than I thought. But still, the "National Boundaries" concept could be the "land exclusive of regions under the control of other cultures."


The general proposal I am currently debating is not so much the screeny, (the "along what lines bit is for the other thread...) but rather the process. i.e. in the beginning, all land (within the national boundaries) is considered a single Territory. From this, demarcation lines can be made to divide the regions under our control.

Extending territorial lines, even through the cultural jurisidiction of other civs, allows us to pre-determine which regions would be within the jurisdiction of which Governors should those lands be conquered. I'm not in favor of "rump" provinces of 1-2 Captured Cities, whether controled by a Governor or the First General. Nor am I in favor of "on the spot" Province Creation/Extension if we can do it ahead of time.

Going back to the 1497 Treaty of Tordesillas, the Pope likely did not know that there were other civilizations on these continents; he just set a semi-arbitrary line which would give Protugal Africa and Spain the Americas. Without regard for the Natives or for the Northern European Powers that would set up colonies in North America about a Century later.

I understand that a Governor would have no control over land within the bounds of other civs. He'd probably have very little control over lands outside our own bounds anyway.
 
Okay, I've drawn up a little Section for the Code of Laws, applicable to Article O.

I: All land that is not within or surrounded by the Cultural Boundaries of another nation may be considered as part of the Japatanican Nation.

II: In the beginning of the game, a default Province shall be established and a Governor installed by election therein. This First Province shall contain all lands that are part of the Japatanician Nation until other Provinces are formed, and has at its Capital the First Established City.

III: Territories shall be formed by the House devising "Boundary Lines" within established Provinces. Ratification by the People is required before these boundaries have effect. The minimum size of these Territories should be a space large enough to fit 3 cities at full Temple Radius.
A: Initially, a Territory is administered by the Governor of the Province the Territory was a former part of.
B: Once a Territory has at least three (3) towns or has at least 50% of the land within the entire territory under Japatanica's Cultural Borders, then it becomes a Full Province with its own Governor.
1: Governors of new Provinces will be appointed by the Domestic Minister and approved by the President. These appointments will last only until the end of the current term. <possibly replace with provisions for "Special Elections">

IV: Provincial Boundaries may be readjusted with concent of the affected Governors and the House.

Thoughts?
 
This is a proposed Poll for an ammendment to the Code of Laws. This ammendment covers the formation of new Provinces under Article O of the Constitution. Please review the legislation carefully before voting.

Section O(1)
A: All land that is not within or surrounded by the Cultural Boundaries of another nation may be considered as part of the Japanatican Nation.

B: In the beginning of the game, a default Province shall be established and a Governor installed by election therein. This First Province shall contain all lands that are part of the Japanatican Nation until other Provinces are formed, and has at its Capital the First Established City.

C: Territories shall be formed by the House devising "Boundary Lines" within established Provinces. Ratification by the People is required before these boundaries have effect. The minimum size of these Territories should be a space large enough to fit 3 cities at full Temple Radius.
1: Initially, a Territory is administered by the Governor of the Province the Territory was a former part of.
2: Once a Territory has at least three (3) towns or has at least 50% of the land within the entire territory under Japatanica's Cultural Borders, then it becomes a Full Province with its own Governor.
a: Governors of new Provinces will be appointed by the President, under recommendations from the Domestic Minister. These appointments will last only until the end of the current term, and be subject to Section G of the Code of Laws.

D: Provincial Boundaries may be readjusted with consent of the affected Governors and the House.

Please vote one of the following options:

YES: I approve of this Section
NO: I do not approve of this section
ABSTAIN: No opinion.


This Poll will last 72 Hours and be subject to Section I(1) of the Code of Laws.


Okay, guys... Need Second and Third here.
 
Shall be considered part of what Nation? :)

The second time you mention it too. ;)
 
Also, Section O.C.2.a reads ~ a: Governors of new Provinces will be appointed by the Domestic Minister and approved by the President. These appointments will last only until the end of the current term.

Throughout our ruleset, the President makes all appointments to vacant elected Offices, for whatever reason. Maybe the above line should read, "Recommended by the Domestic Minister AND appointed by the President."

You also might want to add at the end of the line, "Subject to CoL Section G."

Thoughts? Sorry I didn't respond earlier.
 
Thanks, Cyc. Edited.

I actually thought about adding the "Section G" line, but origianlly decided against it because I thought it would be implied by the fact that it was an appointment.

Restart the Clock! Also, do you Second, Mr. Chief Justice?
 
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