Priority early techs?

[TheMeInTeam]

I had a run of about 3 weeks where I won just about every emperor game I played (even an immortal!). Now, I've lost a good number in a row (mostly following 3.17). Seeing as this does not seem to be a global player problem, I'm thinking I stopped doing something that was working for me.

I've tried a lot of early openings and surprisingly most of them net out pretty even by around 1000 BC, exceptions being an axe rush or successful completion of the mids with stone.

My problem is that if I don't bother with mids (and I usually don't like getting them) then my tech just...dies. I can keep up fairly decently with neighbors around, but in isolation or with weak nearby AI's I turn into monty. And I don't have the reduced maintenance to lug around 100 unit armies for 200 turns like Monty.

I run into a tech path problem I think. I usually have about 1.5 workers per city (more or less, the important thing is improving tiles to work so that I don't work unimproved ones). I strongly favor cottages - always did. They're simple and effective.

Early tech path is usually picking up bronze working and then pottery/writing (after the worker techs that allow me to actually improve tiles I'm working).

The problem is after writing. I like to spam cities, but of course this can run upkeep into the ground. Library specialists help give a little research (enough actually with trades), but I want some stronger stuff. The options I can think of are:

1. Aesthetics/literature. Doesn't do a lot for maintenance, but can get some GS's out faster. Damages the astro bulb in isolation, and offers minimal help outside the GP farm...not so strong in isolation IMO, but solid when you can trade aesthetics for other things. Which is often. If you can trade, that is.
2. Code of laws. I usually won't slingshot it, but it's still good to get relatively early I'd imagine. Courthouses cut costs, and I find that when I REX out 6-7 cities in isolation, my economy tanks. Working cottages can only do so much, especially when whipping due to hammer-poorness. Ouch.
3. Currency. Markets kind of suck TBH, at least early on. Especially when no resource you have bumps the cap up. It DOES add a trade route and the ability to build wealth however. It's an instant benefit and it reduces the CoL cost if you have priesthood already.
4. Monarchy. This one opens up HR. You can 2 pop whip units for happiness (units you may need anyhow, for barbs or otherwise). However, this is pure vertical growth and will rely on the whip or good hammer tiles to get worthy infrastructure.

My problem in emperor isolation (or games with bad trade partners) is that I sag miserably behind in tech. I see tech rates around 100 at 200 AD. Mine is often more like 50-60. I grow it slowly to around 120-150 by 1300 AD. That doesn't seem to cut it. I'm so far behind that it MAY be possible to win, but very uphill.

Of 2-4, I want to hear what you emperor+ players go first (I somehow doubt an aesthetics or alphabet push early is viable when you can't trade them). I seem to need all 3, but wind up researching so poorly that I'm teching the 3rd one in 600 AD sometimes. That's failure, I'm pretty sure. I'm currently leaning towards monarchy a bit...but unsure. Of course this is all barring times where you have like 4 resources or like every calendar resource or something.

Either I'm teching out of order (admittedly I often work archery in early, but I don't think that's the end of the world) or I'm over/under expanding (I don't think under). If over expanding, where does one typically stop? 4 cities? 6? 8? 15? And at what point in the game...say how much extra in cities does monarchy vs Col vs currency buy one...! I have trouble paying the bills at 6-7 cities while researching decently, even running scientists.

What breaks this lull the quickest?

 

[harusame]

you dont need alphabet if you started isolated

and imo, it depends a lot on your cities
CoL>CS should be pritority if you have such a powerful commerce capital

it is also extremely important to tech fast to astronomy (compass, optic, mathematic, calendar), and get it before 1000 AD

 

[Dirk1302]

^TMIT, 50-60 bpt 200 AD is a bit low but not uncommon especially after an early rush. I often find that there's a point when science explodes with currency,calender and cs. Time when you get these techs also depends on the ais around you and early expansion. Around 1300 AD 120-150 is very low, should be 300 (at least)-600+ on immortal, higher on deity i think. I have had science that low around 1300 AD but i was close to steel in that case and building an enormous (expensive) army to conquer an AI that had a huge army himself.

Maybe post a 1300 AD save from one of your games so we can have a look?

 

[Zanttu]

Of 2-4, I want to hear what you emperor+ players go first

Currency, no doubt about it. But I have to say that I don't like playing isolated a lot, and I often just quit if I find myself isolated.

 

[slobberinbear]

I feel your pain. On Emperor, running 40% research feels like an extravagance.

Depending on my tiles, I prefer a SE (even when not Philosophical) to free me from the slider. After the worker techs, securing either copper or iron, and pottery+writing, I typically beeline Monarchy then go up math>currency>code of laws. HR + Caste System lets you run large cities full of scientists as long as you have enough food and a big enough garrison. This is the only way I've been able to somewhat keep pace with the AI tech rate.

Obviously the Pyramids give you the choice of running Representation and grabbing bonus beakers, but I'm not sure it's always the best choice. If you have a large empire, you need happiness in more than just 5 cities. Also, the +3 just isn't enough for your big SE cities. Rep works well if you have other sources of happiness, though.

Since you're tied to the slider when running a CE, I think you have to be real careful about what cities you decide to settle, and focus more on vertical growth. You may have to settle cities to block off the AI and build some culture buildings to fill in the land to prevent AI settlements. Unfortunately, there are only a few early-mid game techs that really benefit a CE -- Currency (trade routes/markets), Code of Laws (courthouses) and Civil Service (for Bureaucracy).

The Great Lighthouse is helpful early but it's not, single-handedly, going to solve this problem.

The much-maligned religious strategy can also be profitable. Why not build the Oracle for Code of Laws and get Confucianism in the bargain, and start working on your Wall Street city? Spamming missionaries seems silly but it adds up.

It's a frustrating choice -- you either play conservatively to maintain your economic stability or you go bananas on settling and pray your SE rescues you.

 

[DaveMcW]

First priority is expanding to at least the middle of the pack in land size.

Second priority is Monarchy + cottages.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

First priority is expanding to at least the middle of the pack in land size.

Second priority is Monarchy + cottages.

Since I favor CE (with a GP farm) I was leaning this way. This is, IMO, difficult in isolation though. Do you just settle everything while going monarchy in that case? How do you know when to stop? When NOT isolated it's pretty easy-you settle what you can on high difficulties because you're more likely to get boxed in than run yourself into the ground with peaceful overexpansion. Other difficult situations to gauge this include spawning with 1-2 AIs, that won't trade. This usually calls for a rush, but sometimes the land around is a bit massive to take them ALL out unless you get lucky with resources/religion.

300 BPT is incredibly rare for me in the timeframe dirk describes. I DO have some saves this time so I'll post them when I get home (don't think I have any from 1k AD, but I get the suspicion that I err before then anyway).

I can never seem to put up these kinds of beakers without getting pyramids or something, although I won a lot in the past with that kind of count due to warring on weaker or tech poor targets and using the land advantage to wtfown everyone...no dice lately though .

 

[DaveMcW]

Do you just settle everything while going monarchy in that case? How do you know when to stop?

The goal is to maximize the number of citizens working cottages.

You do that through vertical growth in existing cities, and horizontal growth in new cities. Just stay focused on the "cottage citizen" goal, and you'll figure out the most efficient way.

 

[Kesshi]

TheMeInTeam,

Have you considered an Espionage economy?

VirusMonster covered the EE in his 500k score on Immortal guide, and showed how it is more effective per commerce than a straight teching, especially when you start to factor in size and difficulty penalties that come with researching. Or are you like me and someone who can beat Emperor and Immortal without building a single spy? I really need to get out of the habit of not using spies and learn how to use them properly.

Since you play a CE, commerce is easily converted into Espionage, where as an SE player like myself would have more difficulty with this type of economy. Also, one thing I still am not used to at the higher difficulties, is not being the tech leader. I have to get it through my thick skull that I am not the greatest, the most powerful, the largest, or the most knowledged civilization out there. Instead I am the brightest and the most cunning. I still get discouraged if I am not in the lead, even if I know I can still win.


...you really need to teach me how to use cottages some day. I'm going to need them to build a proper EE.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Either I'm teching out of order (admittedly I often work archery in early, but I don't think that's the end of the world) or I'm over/under expanding (I don't think under). If over expanding, where does one typically stop? 4 cities? 6? 8? 15? And at what point in the game...say how much extra in cities does monarchy vs Col vs currency buy one...! I have trouble paying the bills at 6-7 cities while researching decently, even running scientists.

I'd also be wondering if your expenses are typical, and maybe challenging your hammer/commerce balance.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'd also be wondering if your expenses are typical, and maybe challenging your hammer/commerce balance.

Well, I cottage quite extensively and when I've expanded too much it's pretty tight...if anything I may have over expanded to the point where I'm not working enough hammers because doing so would mean horrible research or strike . During this time I've always just relied on library specialists to keep me moving while the cottages grow. I'm not sure where to stop expanding in isolation - the 60% slider thing seems kind of weak (as many players have indicated). I'll try what dave suggests next I guess and see how that changes the outcome - the problem there is scientists vs cottages...it almost seems like he's telling me to run scientists in only 1 city, with the rest working exclusively cottages (or improved hammer/food tiles, the whip becoming less efficient for bigger cities).

@ Kesshi: EE works pretty well for me when I go with it - but my problem here is situations where I am either isolated or can't trade - I can't get the beakers by myself . Generally in such situations trying to funnel techs extensively from tokugawa or the barbs seems a bit suboptimal .

Looking back, most of my successful games in this kind of situation featured either pyramids or the AP (the latter involved a theology bulb or oracle, giving me a religion, cap, and a VERY shortly thereafter tech of monarchy since I had all pre-reqs for it)! I had one with "no tech brokering" where I built 0 wonders and went pure CE, flattening the tech poor AIs with a financial civ - no tech brokering nerfs the AIs pretty hard though.

 

[DanF5771]

My usual early game is entirely centered around a strong capital that needs early cottages (also developed by 1/2 helper cities), limited whipping and getting all of the important infrastructure (units only in emergencies). Then I conquer barb cities for good cash to deficit research Currency, after that I build wealth in many cities to hurry to Civil Service. A strong bureaucracy capital with all available science multipliers including the most important Academy will give you 100 beakers alone at 1 AD (emperor).

 

[Abegweit]

First priority is expanding to at least the middle of the pack in land size.

Disagree totally. There is no rush in getting land when you are playing an isolated start. You will have it all anyway. First priority is getting your economy in shape. In view of this, I tend to go a little wonder-happy in the beginning. Specifically I want the mids and the GLH. It is certainly possible to get them both on emperor if you work at it, even without stone. The GLib is also nice but it is so far off the tech path that it is hard to justify. Very doable however. Maybe it's justified if you get a GE (not unlikely because the mids will probably finish first). Just build a second city in a good production spot and then start both wonders.

Once you have these two wonders, it's time to go crazy with expansion - initially on coastal sites. Since you're isolated, you should have lots of them. If you have a couple of islands off shore make settling them a priority, no matter how garbage the locations are. The inter-continental trade routes are just so juicy.

Second priority is Monarchy + cottages.

Second priority is Liberalism and Optics. Aside from the worker techs, a typical path might be
Sailing-Pottery-Writing-Math-Currency-CoL-CS-Compass-Optics then back up the top of the tree. Everyone of these techs is useful for your economy.

Oh, in 3.17, don't forget fogbusters to protect your seafood.

 

[schwartz]

I go currency first in about 85% of games. CoL is second just as often, and monarchy is usually last (barring the absence of ANY happy).
I'm no good at all at explaining how I do things in this game, but I like to be around 80-100 bpt in the early ADs and 300+ bpt at the 1200-1300 range. I'm very bad at doing this in a small empire but I like to expand quickly by whatever means possible: Usually, running medium sized cities with a good mix of library specialists and cottages is good enough for 100 bpt in the early ADs (usually at a small, manageable deficit)

I'm awful in isolation, so I can't be much help there.

 

[Abegweit]

The main reason for the order is to minimize the number of techs researched, not because of the relative merits of Curr and CoL. The other way to CoL takes three additional techs.

On top of that, Curr is better under these circumstances. The synergy of Curr and the GLH is simply huge. Every additional city strengthens your economy without any work on it whatsoever. So yes, Curr is better.

I really have little use for cottages before Emancipation but I'm not a fanatic about it. There are always exceptions. A flood plains capital comes to mind. I never seem to get them on isolated starts though. It's always seafood-rich.

 

[ranion]

currency is IMO one of the biggest techs there is for the early economy. The extra trade route is worth at the bare minimum 1 commerce per city, and the ability to build wealth and markets for merchants (or the gold bonus in those well established high commerce centers) are great for getting a troubled economy out of trouble. Further the ability to sell techs for gold to run at a deficit can't be ignored either. Following currency i would say code of laws for courthouses to reduce maintenance, then monarchy or calender for vertical growth, depending on the circumstances (ie: what/how many resources are lying around.) vertical growth in the well established cities is really important as you enter the medieval era and techs start costing more.

currency is definitely the biggest boost though because it provides that extra trade route income regardless of whether or not you make use of the other things it grants access to. I tend to prioritize rather poorly as well however, but its usually just after this point that things tend to fall apart for me and i meander across the tech tree almost aimlessly.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm resurrecting this thread.

First of all, thanks everyone, as usual the advice is quite helpful.

For those following this or trying to move up in difficulty, I'll add my comments as to what helped my early game following this thread:

The goal/challenge is to balance horizontal and vertical expansion, as everyone is saying. In my case, I was going too horizontal - the trouble being the cap. This occurred to me following this advice and remembering my success in my AP games:

I had a higher happy cap, because I'd gone theology FAST. This game me a religion for , which bought me time until monarchy, which was of course a tech away after the theology bulb!

This opening isn't always optimal, but if you can't get +3 or more out of local resources/religion/etc. then I'd say go monarchy first (ESPECIALLY if you want to build and work cottages to grow). If you have a lot of lying around you can leverage that into earlier CoL/Currency without losing out on working any cottages/running specialists...in which case those are better. In super pangaea maps where you meet everyone in 5 seconds alphabet and aesthetics are ok too as you can trade them for anything and at high levels the AI will probably have what you need pretty quickly.

Most of the times though, it seems like the answer is monarchy for me...!

So how was a low cap hurting me?

Well...I'd expand, then my tech rate would sag. Without any means of vertical growth, it wouldn't improve again for a long time (it's hard to meaningfully increase the output of pop 5-6 cities, especially if you're whipping too....). With such awful tech rate, I was getting to techs that improve tech speed too slowly - for example CS in 600+ AD, instead of the early 100's at the slower side.

After some practice/training/civ4 pushups I ran a random Emperor game today. Small randomized actual earth, because that map always seems a size bigger than you put. I wound up with HRE in africa .

I built no wonders - just went the normal worker techs/BW/writing path, then shot to monarchy immediately after. I guess it's worth noting that I fogbusted extensively with warriors, eliminating much of the barb trouble before it began...including the dreaded galleys (I never saw one ).

Monarchy came a bit slow since I had to deviate through religious techs for it, but not too bad. By 10 AD I had 6 cities plus monarchy and math and was able to trade some things around while teching CS - a tech I'd been ignoring too much as a cottage capitol owns under bureaucracy. Around 200-500 AD I was getting 120 BPT - not going to set any records, but with HRE and strictly cottages without wonders that's not terrible either. The important thing is that I had a lot of my cities at higher pop than I had been when failing - 8+. Of course I had an academy in the capitol too.

From there I deviated from the norm a bit. After all - I was HRE. I used theocracy to build/whip a lot of catapults, trebs, 1 sword lol, longbows, and my UU. HC had guilds and beat me to lib for doing this, but that's ok because I bumped him off the continent and forced capitulation. Comically, since I was able to stay in bureaucracy my tech actually improved as the war went on - still working those cottages after all. By 1300 AD I was at >300 beakers despite warring from about 800-900 AD time frame to then. Realistically once I won that war the game was over since I had so much land without tech death...

This is thanks largely in part to the guidance I got from this thread, so I figured I'd give you all a thank you and an update .

"The goal is to maximize the number of citizens working cottages.

You do that through vertical growth in existing cities, and horizontal growth in new cities. Just stay focused on the "cottage citizen" goal, and you'll figure out the most efficient way."

A bit cryptic, but VERY good advice . It ignores some specifics as it forces one to figure out what is "most efficient", but indeed it greatly strengthened my "CE" game, if there really is such a thing.

Also, cuirassers own.