Probably Improved Gameplay Mod

Oops, right. It's 1 vs. 1, but the Serfdom Farm comes much earlier in the game than the Lumbermill.

It does, but I figure that Lumbermills are more of a long-haul player's type of production booster anyway. Keeping forests/lumbermills around is handy for later Preserving, for healthy bonuses, or for the production needed in a space race, but chopping them and cottaging or farming earlier may help get to a Space Race era faster. That dynamic, of course, has always been a part of Civ4. Mostly, for me, the new Serfdom just makes a farm look more attractive as an option if I'm going to chop the forest anyway.

At any rate, I would venture that +1:commerce: on Farm is a lot less potentially game breaking than +1:hammers: on farm would be. :-) Caste (GPP) and Slavery (food into hammers) are already so powerful that having something that is applicable for increasing raw commerce doesn't seem so bad. (Emancipation also does that indirectly, but the biggest effect on most of my games from it is simply having to switch into it to avoid unhappiness, which nudges the economy to sorta balance itself a bit and become more hybridized or cottage-driven).

With the new Fort commerce bonus, the decision to chop a forest early is a slightly harder call in general, since +1 commerce on a tile that can eventually become a Lumbermill or Preserve does make the decision more thought-provoking.
 
(Forgive the double post, but I wanted to give this its own posting.)

Some ideas for forts, Vassalage, and Nationhood

My reckoning is that all of these changes would need to go in together in order to be beneficial, rather than harmful, for game balance:

A general Fort change: make the commerce bonus be +1:commerce: with road or railroad (but not +2:commerce: with railroad).

Add the following to Vassalage:
+1:commerce: from Fort
+50% trade route yield with your own Vassal States

Add the following to Nationhood:
+1:commerce: from Fort

If you really want to, you could leave the extra railroad commerce as well; you'd just have to be aware that you'd be creating +4:commerce: monster FIN forts that way.

My thinking on this is pretty basic. Right now, it seems like Vassalage is a civic that people only want to use long-term in the following situations:

(1) They have a really bad capital.
(2) They're going to war and want the xp and unit maintenance bonuses badly.
(3) They want to be Cyrus's good buddy. :)

The changes I've proposed here don't seem (to me) like they'd be horribly game-breaking, but they would at least give Vassalage users some decent, semi-long-term reasons to remain in it even after they're done warring. It would also make early-game island colonization and vassal-state creation through the Domestic Advisor a more lucrative option. (Remember, Vassal State trade routes are the only foreign trade routes that aren't nixed by Mercantilism, and this change would make those trade routes a bit stronger still, making for interesting Civic synergy if the player in question is able to set up a good Vassal situation.) The extra commerce from Forts would get that bonus into play sooner than the current Railroad method does, but as a Civic perk.

Adding the proposed +1:commerce: from forts for Nationhood too just seemed logical, considering what Nationhood is about. It didn't need much of a boost though since we all know what Nationhood is really good for. *grins* And for the most part I do consider the draft a lot more powerful militarily than the +2 exp from Vassalage (although that has its place).
 
Anyone else is welcome to download and use this version but be mindful the promotions in the pedia are broken.

Thank. I will try it out after removing WIII from recon and buffing a little cereal mills

Edit to Lenowill : nice idea, but Vassalage is not exactly that weak a civic in my thought. Especially when you are organized.
 
Are you getting Python exceptions in PythonErr.log? I have very little time nowadays (just enough to catch up on the forum), but I could help if given the log.

I am indeed. After I stumbled around for a bit trying to figure out how to turn on error logging (:lol: I Know, I'm clueless as a modder) I found this error report:

Spoiler :
Code:
Traceback (most recent call last):

  File "CvScreensInterface", line 397, in pediaMain

  File "SevoPediaMain", line 246, in pediaJump

  File "SevoPediaMain", line 305, in showContents

  File "SevoPediaMain", line 486, in placePromotionTree

  File "UnitUpgradesGraph", line 187, in getGraph

  File "UnitUpgradesGraph", line 577, in getGraphEdges

AttributeError: 'CvPromotionInfo' object has no attribute 'getPrereqOrPromotion3'
ERR: Python function pediaMain failed, module CvScreensInterface
Traceback (most recent call last):

  File "CvScreensInterface", line 421, in pediaJumpToPromotion

  File "SevoPediaMain", line 277, in pediaJump

  File "SevoPediaPromotion", line 73, in interfaceScreen

  File "SevoPediaPromotion", line 102, in placePrereqs

AttributeError: 'CvPromotionInfo' object has no attribute 'getPrereqOrPromotion3'
ERR: Python function pediaJumpToPromotion failed, module CvScreensInterface
Traceback (most recent call last):

  File "CvScreensInterface", line 421, in pediaJumpToPromotion

  File "SevoPediaMain", line 277, in pediaJump

  File "SevoPediaPromotion", line 73, in interfaceScreen

  File "SevoPediaPromotion", line 102, in placePrereqs

AttributeError: 'CvPromotionInfo' object has no attribute 'getPrereqOrPromotion3'
ERR: Python function pediaJumpToPromotion failed, module CvScreensInterface
Traceback (most recent call last):

  File "CvScreensInterface", line 421, in pediaJumpToPromotion

  File "SevoPediaMain", line 277, in pediaJump

  File "SevoPediaPromotion", line 73, in interfaceScreen

  File "SevoPediaPromotion", line 102, in placePrereqs

AttributeError: 'CvPromotionInfo' object has no attribute 'getPrereqOrPromotion3'
ERR: Python function pediaJumpToPromotion failed, module CvScreensInterface

I'd try more to sort this out myself but I don't really know what I'm doing when it comes to Python modding.
 
(Forgive the double post, but I wanted to give this its own posting.)

Some ideas for forts, Vassalage, and Nationhood

My reckoning is that all of these changes would need to go in together in order to be beneficial, rather than harmful, for game balance:



If you really want to, you could leave the extra railroad commerce as well; you'd just have to be aware that you'd be creating +4:commerce: monster FIN forts that way.

My thinking on this is pretty basic. Right now, it seems like Vassalage is a civic that people only want to use long-term in the following situations:

(1) They have a really bad capital.
(2) They're going to war and want the xp and unit maintenance bonuses badly.
(3) They want to be Cyrus's good buddy. :)

The changes I've proposed here don't seem (to me) like they'd be horribly game-breaking, but they would at least give Vassalage users some decent, semi-long-term reasons to remain in it even after they're done warring. It would also make early-game island colonization and vassal-state creation through the Domestic Advisor a more lucrative option. (Remember, Vassal State trade routes are the only foreign trade routes that aren't nixed by Mercantilism, and this change would make those trade routes a bit stronger still, making for interesting Civic synergy if the player in question is able to set up a good Vassal situation.) The extra commerce from Forts would get that bonus into play sooner than the current Railroad method does, but as a Civic perk.

Adding the proposed +1:commerce: from forts for Nationhood too just seemed logical, considering what Nationhood is about. It didn't need much of a boost though since we all know what Nationhood is really good for. *grins* And for the most part I do consider the draft a lot more powerful militarily than the +2 exp from Vassalage (although that has its place).

Let me preface what I'm about to say by pointing out I'll approach any suggestions for changes with a very critical eye. Don't take it necessarily as a flat rejection but as an opportunity to provide additional support to the proposed change.
A problem I have with your suggestions is that forts become a visible and more prominent feature of the civics screen. Keeping in mind that this mod is primarily a minimalist mod, I don't want to see civic lists cluttered by lots of little boosts. Each civic should have one or two main reasons to be used. There are exceptions of course (e.g. there's pretty much four things that can be said about Nationhood).
Adding 1:commerce: to forts in two different civics doesn't appeal. Keep in mind serfdom already has a +1:commerce: bonus to an improvement.

The change I have already made with forts was done for a couple of reasons.
1. To make forests, especially grass forests, reasonably good to not chop too early. As with many changes in this mod, the change is deliberately small to ensure it does not change the game dynamics too much and especially to avoid introducing unforeseen exploit opportunities. Forts still take a long time to build so it would be hard to argue the early 1:commerce: on forts is anywhere near to powerful.
2. To encourage their use as defensive fortifications by making them not as large an opportunity cost when used in a BFC.

Boosting forts even further via civics is something I'm very hesitant about. Forts already serve a plethora of functions (outlined in the link in my signature of course) and I think it would be a good idea to keep their primary role as defensive fortifications in place.

Your suggestion of a trade bonus with vassals with Vassalage is interesting, but I wonder if it's really necessary. Are there realism grounds to support such a change? Remembering that vassals already trade with their master as if they're a separate state and that the vassal agreement is partly covered by their duty to provide the master with whatever resources the master demands. Generally speaking, in SP games it is already pretty powerful to possess vassals. And remember that colonies are technically vassals, so creating new colonies under Vassalage could be a lot more powerful.

Alone, I don't see why any change is needed for Nationhood. I suppose your suggestion for it depends on Vassalage and possibly the other civics in the category being revised.
 
Edit to Lenowill : nice idea, but Vassalage is not exactly that weak a civic in my thought. Especially when you are organized.

Vassalage is less expensive for ORG leaders to maintain, but the opportunity-cost of not using Bureaucracy instead (as soon as it is unlocked) seems very high for most maps (i.e. any map in which you're able to develop a good Bureau capital) unless you are building up for a war or currently involved in one.

I was mainly trying to come up with something that would give people a significant reason to consider remaining in Vassalage even when not in the middle of a war or expecting to become involve with one.

Edit: @PieceOfMind:

Just a note: the proposed change doesn't technically make Forts more lucrative for commerce than they already are in your mod as it stands. It's still a max of +2 or +3 if you're financial, just like it is right now.) What it does do is make the second coin of commerce come in earlier but eliminates the additional boost it was currently getting from Railroad, at the cost of needing to remain in certain civics for it to remain long-term. But since the civics in question are war-helping civics anyway, it makes more sense for forts to get boosted with them than with anything else. To whit, if there's ever going to be a governmental style in which Forts realistically matter a lot for commerce, it would probably be under a vassalist or nationalist setup.

Cluttering up the civic's screen is a point of concern but not something that worried me too much with this. Environmentalism and State Property get away with rather lengthy wads of text as it is, and a simple line saying "+1:commerce: from Fort" isn't going to break onto a second line (I don't think). Civ4 is a complex game and having to take a few more factors into account doesn't rub me the wrong way

Adding commerce boosts to several different civics doesn't bother me either, considering that FS and Enviro already had them to begin with, and these are ways of making different improvements a little more interesting as the game is in progress.

The +50% TRY for Vassal'd civilizations was mostly just an idea I was kicking around. Mainly I thought it would be an interesting impetus toward running Merc / only-with-our-vassals trading economies. Remember too that this is Vassalage we're talking about here (a civic in the same column as Bureaucracy and Free Speech). I've never personally found it to be a civic that makes even a small amount of sense to keep running while at peace if I have either of those other powerful civics available. If I don't have any other way around it, it's worth the turn(s) in anarchy to get off of it and back onto Bureau (again, unless my capital completely stinks and I can't find any good place to move it elsewhere--which is an extremely rare circumstance). I was looking for some way for Vassalage to at least be interesting while at peace, since it seems like one of the goals of the mod is to smooth out the power differences between different civics or at any rate to make some of them useful more often.

My hunch is that we'd find the proposed changes to be extremely minor in terms of their gameplay impact, but I don't know enough about XML to actually try them for myself.

p.s.: I should mention that the practical effect of your existing fort change is in some cases already quite a bit different than what you had in mind. An actual effect of the change is that a person who wants to save forests for Lumbermilling/Preserving later on makes a BFC with multiple Forts and uses them for :commerce: and :hammers: flat-out. It does look a little goofy, and it does take a lot of worker turns, but every little bit helps, and it makes it easy to tell (visually) which forests need to be changed into mills or preserves later on. I've had 8 forts in a BFC in some of my test games for a very long time, and they make good improvements to build in tiny-island archipelagos where forests are initially the only source of :hammers:.

Gameplay-wise I like that more is being done with forts; it's fun and it's useful.
 
I think that PoM is right : clustering vassalage with more economic text does not really appeal to me. Vassalage is for when you have a big empire and a big army, so I can't see why bureaucracy come in.

p.s.: I should mention that the practical effect of your existing fort change is in some cases already quite a bit different than what you had in mind. An actual effect of the change is that a person who wants to save forests for Lumbermilling/Preserving later on makes a BFC with multiple Forts and uses them for :commerce: and :hammers: flat-out. It does look a little goofy, and it does take a lot of worker turns, but every little bit helps, and it makes it easy to tell (visually) which forests need to be changed into mills or preserves later on. I've had 8 forts in a BFC in some of my test games for a very long time, and they make good improvements to build in tiny-island archipelagos where forests are initially the only source of :hammers:.
I admit I would rather add a primitive lumbermill or something along thoses line (hunt preserve ?) rather than forting forest. Adding commerce to fort is not especially good, but somewhat realistic, and other idea I can come up with cause other troubles.
 
Think about the criteria:

  • Does the change improve or impact the game in a positive way?
  • Is the change necessary?
  • Does the change address a balance problem in a way that is not likely to unbalance further?
  • Does the change make a particular decision making process more interesting, or allow alternative strategies to existing ones?
  • Is it likely the change will have a negative impact on the AI's performance. If so, is the effect minimal?
  • Does the change have at least some degree of realism?
  • Could a similar effect on gameplay be achieved through a simpler change? i.e. Less is more.
  • Is the change likely to confuse new players to the mod?
  • Is the change going to be difficult to implement? Is it worth the programmer's time?
  • Will the change be popular?
  • Will the change be small enough to not unnecessarily increase the overall size (in MB) of the mod?

Anyway, the one thing I kinda disagree with you about, Lenowill, is that Vassalage needs any revising at all. I don't see any obvious problem with some civics being more useful during wartime and others being more useful during peace. There are already many other civic choices where war or peace influences the decision and in some cases makes a decision an easy one. e.g. Are we calling for Police State to be boosted for peace time nations?

I already use Vassalage on many occasions and I think it's already a good civic. Serfdom on the other hand I have used maybe once or twice ever, and probably because I was Spiritual and had no longer any need for whip-assisted builds.

I know that Civics are one of the easiest places to focus a lot of attention on in mods but for the most part I believe the game's default civics to be very well balanced and interesting.

Also, changes to civics are some of the most likely to cause someone coming from unmodded BtS to feel the game is unfamiliar. This is one of the criteria I consider very high in the list. As much as possible I want to limit changes to the civics because it can be easy to get carried away.

Regarding the existing changes to forts, I am in some agreement that they seem a bit goofy. I'm still not sold on the idea they get 1:commerce: with roads and 2:commerce: with railroads, and it's a real possibility that this will be removed later on. As always, I'm willing to consider the suggestions of others in this regard.
 
Regarding the existing changes to forts, I am in some agreement that they seem a bit goofy. I'm still not sold on the idea they get 1:commerce: with roads and 2:commerce: with railroads, and it's a real possibility that this will be removed later on. As always, I'm willing to consider the suggestions of others in this regard.

The whole commerce thing with military camp does not seem too strage in two case :
_if there is actually a lot of military unit.
_if there is not too much of them on a city.
The problem is, there is not incentive for thoses possibility. We can only hope that fort are not interesting enough to build only them.

A thing that may work : remove the tech restriction from lumbermill, put it at +0 base, and add to replacable part (or whatever tech give the lumbermill) +1 hammer. This way, you have a placeholder mill for where you want to cut wood. It's not totally useless : it give +1 commerce when near a river.

... well, maybe too less of a change from now.
 
The main counterpoint I would have about Vassalage would be from a historic standpoint. When I think about Vassalage from history, it doesn't really feel like the Vassalage that's represented in Civ4, and that bothers me a little.

The point of Vassalage historically wasn't always to beat people to a bloody pulp. The point of Vassalage was to maintain a large empire in a relatively organized manner. There was an aspect of strength-keeps-the-peace involved, but it always seemed to me like it was somewhat economically viable along with being useful for military preparedness--and yes, a lot of wars were being fought in that time, and one could crop up at any moment, so there was that to consider as well.

But the point of Vassalage in Civ 4--and let's be honest here and not mince words, here--is to beat people to a bloody pulp. Any other benefits it has are ancillary. In Civ4, there's usually very little sense in maintaining a large standing army (cheap upkeep or no) unless you plan on killing someone with it or defending against someone who is about to attack you. But then, Civ4 doesn't really require you to role-play your warring in general (whereas it does for the AI, to at least some degree). Which is something that sometimes bothers me a bit in itself, and I know opinions will vary widely on that.

Police State is obviously a through-and-through militaristic civic, and I had no intention of arguing for commerce benefits for it. In real life, Police States tend to end up (1) heavily armed and (2) economically strained and (3) pretty darn oppressive and stifling of dissenting thought. Civ4 reflects that pretty nicely as it is; if we were going to change it I'd recommend some sort of harm to commerce or research. Gameplay-wise I seldom use it since I don't usually get into a lot of modern wars by my own choosing, so I can't comment.

I do know I wouldn't want to use Vassalage even in the ways it was used in the peacetime of Europe, because it looks very weak compared to other quickly attainable options. The only time I would maintain it during peacetime (without war being an imminent threat or opportunity) would be during an RPC indicating I must do so. Unless I'm missing something big about the usefulness of the unit support cost reduction from the civic.

The main criterion I was thinking about with the Vassalage idea was the part about making a particular decision-making process more interesting. It would, at the very least, do that, and it would be challenging to argue that the effects would be gamebreaking under most circumstances. (More so than a good Bureau capital is, at any rate.)

The main reason my creativity was focusing on Civics, I suspect, is simply because that's "where we were" with the discussion about the Serf tweak. It's definitely a valid aspect of the game to look at.

If you would like to focus on something else I can focus on something else; I'm mainly looking to generate ideas that would hopefully be fun for people to play with, pretty realistic, and make the high-difficulty game a bit more varied and less of a repetitive exercise in building the deadliest army (or Super Bureau Cap, or Cottage Spam FS Land, or State Prop Production Empire--etc.--as the map dictates) that one can manage to construct. To help the strategic elements be somewhat more varied. Because I do eventually get tired of running tiny variants on the same strats over and over again just because they're obviously better than the alternatives in 70% or more of the situations I run into. (That was one reason I really liked the Lib race changes--it put some vigor back into the high-difficulty mid-game for me.)

Edit p.s.:

TheLazyHase said:
A thing that may work : remove the tech restriction from lumbermill, put it at +0 base, and add to replacable part (or whatever tech give the lumbermill) +1 hammer. This way, you have a placeholder mill for where you want to cut wood. It's not totally useless : it give +1 commerce when near a river.

That was something I thought of as well, this morning. Possibly have it come in at Machinery instead of R.P. and be exactly the way Lazy described. It's a thought. My main concern was that it might look very counterintuitive to build an improvement that was purely a placeholder (except when built next to river tiles). Hmm....

Edit p.p.s.: The espionage boost from Nationhood had slipped my mind in my considerations. Just as a note. I now tend to agree it probably doesn't need much if any help, for that reason, although the flavor of +1:commerce: on forts under it is still intriguing to me. Although this might be because I live relatively near the Ft. Campbell, KY air force base and have seen some of the interesting things that does to local commerce. *laughs* (Some very good restaurants sprang up in the area on account of military-related traffic, among other things.)
 
Maybe vassalage could have a different economic-like benefit. No colonial maintenance costs? Even something kind of weird like 1 free citizen specialist per city (which would be slightly better than 1 free hammer if you're in representation) would not be game breaking, but could be decent enough to be better than bureaucracy under the right conditions.
 
The point of Vassalage historically wasn't always to beat people to a bloody pulp. The point of Vassalage was to maintain a large empire in a relatively organized manner. There was an aspect of strength-keeps-the-peace involved, but it always seemed to me like it was somewhat economically viable along with being useful for military preparedness--and yes, a lot of wars were being fought in that time, and one could crop up at any moment, so there was that to consider as well.

ANd economically, it's not exactly that. Historically, vassalage in Europe were when the Europa was at it lowest : no more cultural lead, no more discovery, and some "king" were little more than puppet with vassal that were doing whatever they wanted.

Then again, an important thing : vassalage is not a weak civic. Don't forget that intensive warring appear when you play at any somewhat difficult level, so I don't see the probleme with vassalage. Hey, you may even stay in vassalage instead of bureaucracy simply because of the maintenance cost of an half-capable army.
 
You could make Forest Preserves available earlier (give it to some early tech that needs a boost), and delay the happiness benefit until Sci Method.

EDIT- this is kind of random but you could make it available at Monarchy, since royal people had their own hunting preserve thingies. lol. Monarchy looks a little lonely: HR is a tremendous civic, and you get Wine but that's pretty situational.
 
I like the sound of TheLazyHase's suggestion for lumbermills.

Since Machinery is one of the necessary techs for replaceable parts later on, we could let lumber mills be built with Machinery and give no hammer bonus at first. It might also be a bit silly that before they even serve a function (other than the possible riverside commerce) they could be pillaged for gold. An AI usage consideration is important here too. I wonder how AIs will treat an improvement with no initial bonus.

Unless there is opposition to this change I will so how this goes with the next version.

Other possibilities for Vassalage:
Great general rate modifier
Domestic great general modifier
iDistanceMaintenanceModifier
iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier

All of the above are easy XML changes.

I think something like -25% number of cities modifier could work as a decent enough peacetime (and wartime of course) effect of the civic. What do people think? I could make it a smaller modifier.

Regarding the great general modifiers, maybe not so good an idea because anything less than 100% or not a multiple of 100% will mean 1xp battles won't necessarily increase the GG rate.
 
Since Machinery is one of the necessary techs for replaceable parts later on, we could let lumber mills be built with Machinery and give no hammer bonus at first. It might also be a bit silly that before they even serve a function (other than the possible riverside commerce) they could be pillaged for gold.

Another concern : people will be confused by that. I think some will think that lumbermill are useless in this mod, some will begin to imagine a hidden benefit, etc. Maybe I underestimate the people that will play this mod, I often do that kind of thing, but it may be a concern.

For vassalage, if something is to be added (I'm not totally sold) is the number of city. If you can have vassalage as high upkeep and -25% number city maintenance, it could become a really unique civic in this regard, the absolute opposite of bureaucracy.

I think hereditary rule is already too important to be added forest preserve as hunting reserve. ANd if we do this way, I think giving them +1 commerce and only +1 with environnementalism might be the way to go.
 
Vassalage is already pretty beast, it's just that people abuse the heck out of Bureaucracy which makes it tough for Vassalage to approach it's usefulness economy wise.

Isn't a lumbermill with virtually no benefit kind of a lame idea :/
Do you have any thoughts about my Forest Preserve idea? At least with that improvement you would get the tangible benefit of boosting forest growth...

EDIT- I agree with The Lazy Hase on all points ^.^
 
As for whether people will be confused with the new lumbermill... bear in mind that other improvements like the workshop are almost useless when they first become available.

Anyway, the tooltip and civilopedia would be quite explicit:
The tooltip will need to be fixed to say +1:hammers: with RP but otherwise this is how it will look... Notice that the useless lumbermill is not highlighted - another visual clue it shouldn't be built unless the player knows what he's doing. :)
Spoiler :
lumbermillk.jpg
 
Well putting forest preserve a lot earlier in the tech tree will have large implications.

It increases the forest growth rate significantly so you could almost use it in a forest planting manner, so its growth rate might even need to be toned down if such a change were made.

Its happiness bonus would mean a lot more if it was available earlier. Its happiness bonus applies to all cities it's in the BFC of, making it a very powerful improvement on what used to be an otherwise mostly useless plains forest, for example. At that stage of the game happiness is a bigger limiter on growth than health. Later in the game when the forest preserve is made available like in unmodded BtS, health becomes the bigger problem so the forest preserve is not as potent (but still a good improvement for some cities).

I'm willing to consider it with more dicussion, but at the moment I can't see how it would be a good idea on the whole.
 
You could make Forest Preserves available earlier (give it to some early tech that needs a boost), and delay the happiness benefit until Sci Method.

Also I believe the growth rate is cut down significantly by the presence of roads or something so that might already be a balancing factor. As it is the preserve would have to compete with the popular and extremely powerful forest chop practice.
Lots of p's in that sentence - phew!
 
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