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Probably my main issue with the game

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - We The People' started by Vorpal+5, May 5, 2020.

  1. Vorpal+5

    Vorpal+5 Venturing in Erebus

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    It's was is happening when you start to get the upper hand on another European nation. Once you succeed in beating them, you are better completely absorbing them. Ok fine for now.

    Then, once unrest is gone, all of the sudden, you get dozens upon dozens of expert citizens from their former cities, complete with several very developed cities. It changes drastically your power curve and makes resisting the Independence war almost trivial, because success appeals success and once the first European is beaten, the second is even easier...

    I'm playing with house rules about that, but it feels almost as a cheat to me to beat an European, then get rewarded with a productive population within 10 turns that will double or triple my power in one go.
     
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  2. lethiel

    lethiel Streaming Col at https://www.twitch.tv/lethiel01

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    Yes winning a war is a game changer - just like in civ IV and just like it was historically.

    What do you suggest to change?
    Some options.
    1. You could have a tick box for 'always raze settlements' (seems historically incorrect to play like that).
    2. Improve AI further to fight wars better (human player will always win in the end).
    3. As a community we move more towards multiplayer games (so capturing cities will be harder).
     
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  3. Vorpal+5

    Vorpal+5 Venturing in Erebus

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    Historically, you did not gobble each time all the other country and it was not assimilated and loyal at a rate that would make the Borgs jealous .This is my issue. Not the principle, but the speed at how profitable this is. It should take dozens and dozens of turns (like 100) to have annexed colonies of a foreign power to be as productive as your people. Not 10 turns.

    As for mass exodus. It did happen in reality, like the French Acadian who were forcefully moved in Louisiana by the English, but I doubt also that you would expect high profile colonists, like judge and administrator to be moved and in 6 years work for the new administration as if it was their mother country. And this is the historical aspect, which is not the most important, because this is a game. The most important aspect is that it botches game equilibrium.

    I'm not suggesting options that can't be done or are not realistic, like improving the AI, given it has not been improved to my knowledge since release (or I would not see non-embedded enemy generals moving around and sloop attacking man o war) ... No, I'm only suggesting to tag with a promotion captured colonists, so they can for example not move anywhere (except stay in their city tile and work there), as a starter. You would have a low chance to lose the promotion each turn, like you have a chance for a slave to escape, but that would be a positive event.
    Limiting the mass exodus would be a starter, even if not sufficient.

    Also, I would very much like to have any captured city rolls for each colonist, like there is a 50% chance that any specialist reverts to generic colonist ... No more you get your hands on 3 expert statemen because you conquered a foreign colony (and then prompto you relocate them to your big cities where they will happily produce liberty bells, unless you prefer the colonists to be armed so they can dutifully shoot their former buddies?).

    Actually, this is what I'm considering doing as a house rule, because I think the current modders have their own agenda and won't accept any request. That's their right, as this is their labor.
     
  4. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Prince Supporter

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    You would be right if you would be playing in Europe. However in the Americas huge swathes of land did actually change hands, e.g. after the french-english war in 1713



    the striped blue/orange area and after only one additional war France lost the entirety of Canada to England. And after France lost the ability to challenge England on the seas after Trafalgar Napoleon sold the even larger swath of Louisisana in one go to the USA (to gain money for his wars and to spite the english).

    That loyalties changed faster is in part due to the much lower population density. In Europe almost every area is settled for the last thousand years and almost everyone had a firm understanding of his loyalty and nationality - in the Americas, Europe and the Kings were far away and even the most fearsome foe from Europe was better than living alone in the woods with bloodthirsty natives on the prowl...[/img]
     
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  5. Krohon

    Krohon Chieftain

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    Portugal were the most active empire in invading another European's colonies. By 1567 they invaded a French colony, by 1654 a Netherlands one, by 1820 a Spanish colony. They took in control of it immediately and I am unaware of any cultural issues like the ones we can see in Europe. Sure, the 1820 conquest were later on reverted by a revolt but the point is in America, the assimilation speed were indeed very fast.
     
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  6. PPanda0421

    PPanda0421 Chieftain

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    Sorry but these ideas are really bad. 100 turns to be productive? Think about the timescale in the mid/late game. With this rule who would want to keep a colony they captured? Much faster to start your own colony! Also, what about if the colony is small? You capture a colony size of 1 and you cannot be productive until 100 turns later? Even if you sent your own colonists there? This is a horrible idea!

    You can always bribe, threaten or force judges, administrator or other high level officials to work for you. I'm sure throughout history captured colonists (individuals) were somehow forced to work for their captors. And no it does not botch game equilibrium. If you attack a high population city most likely it'll be highly defended. You spend the time/resources/units and plan a strategy to capture it, you should at least be able to make use of the workforce within a reasonable amount of time, not 100 turns later.

    This is one of the worst ideas of all. OK you're captured and you suddenly lose all the skills and experience you've earned throughout your life? What kind of logic is that? Perhaps if you've sustained brain damage or enough damage to your limbs but not Civ2Col doesn't go that deep with damage to specific body parts. Though one idea is
    when a colony is taken over, colonists in that colony can get hurt (think of them fighting back, running away and getting hurt through environment, stampede, etc). Then if a colonist is damaged they cannot work at 100% efficiency. I don't know anything about the internals, but sounds like a pain to program.
     
  7. Ramstormp

    Ramstormp Chieftain

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    First of all I really should declare how much I love this game, best ever, amazing work; but I agree with Vorpal, I often raze captured cities because I don't want hard built colony soiled by artificial feeling cheats.
     
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  8. Vorpal+5

    Vorpal+5 Venturing in Erebus

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    You are now almost all looking at the historical standpoint, which should not be the main argument because what is the most important in a game which is not a precise historical simulation is game balance.

    I'm just saying, in essence, that something ought to be done. It is clearly too easy and convenient once you crack the nut, i.e manages to defeat the European power main army, to cheat your way through easy victory by siphoning away the workforce of a developed european nation. Well, if some of you don't see this as a problem, too bad for me probably. In the end, I can play with house rules. And thanks to Ramstomp for seeing the same problem as me.
     
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  9. PPanda0421

    PPanda0421 Chieftain

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    Uh, have you actually played VANILLA Civ4Col? Firaxis made the game this way! We're not talking about historical accuracy of the game, we're talking about vanilla game features here. You don't think that Firaxis thought about balance? If it was unbalanced would they have allowed the feature - to capture all colonists upon city capture?
    Furthermore the original Colonization (1994) was like this! You attack the AI's cities, eventually capturing all the colonists as is, when there were no defenders left. Capturing European AI cities is just one way to expand your empire to face the eventual WOI.

    Another thing, Independence (WOI) is one of the VICTORY conditions. Disable that. Unless you choose the peaceful route, you're up against the European AIs. Killing and taking their cities/units is implied.

    It is NOT considered cheating by taking over the AI's cities/units. Play any CIV game with AI enemies.... Heck play vanilla Civ4Col.
     
  10. lethiel

    lethiel Streaming Col at https://www.twitch.tv/lethiel01

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    @PPanda0421 Please, be a bit more respectful in your posts.

    But in theory (and personally I think it works well) capturing European settlements is not imba as large empire -> more REF. So its a strategically choice how big you should make your empire. large empires do have downside and it can be really hard to get to 50 % independence support and win your WoI if you build too big.
     
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  11. lethiel

    lethiel Streaming Col at https://www.twitch.tv/lethiel01

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    Btw this is a problem with every pc game in the world. On single player once you 'crack the nut' you can just repeat what you did next time and then have to increase difficulty level to stay challenged. Once you master highest difficulty you will need to go to multiplayer games to keep being challenged.
    Personally I find the entertainment from, exploration, the combat system, trade and economy micro management quite long time lasting though.
     
  12. Ramstormp

    Ramstormp Chieftain

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    I don't remember feeling the need to raze cities in any other Colonization or Civilization version, but maybe I would if I tried them again. I always played on lower difficulty levels. The higher the difficulty level the more statesmen and stuff the AI gets for essentially free in order to compete with the human. I don't want or need those Europe bought statesmen. I might take that one that actually had to go to work every day in Fort Christian the Tyrant casting a couple of bells until he became great at it. I wouldn't even know that half of those experts got war trauma and were only able to make a couple of bells again having to learn how to inscribe the word liberty in an unknown language for a while, since I never will have seen the experts in the first place. Neither would I mind or know if all the higher level buildings accidentally burned up in battle along with two thirds of the population.
     
  13. Vorpal+5

    Vorpal+5 Venturing in Erebus

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    Indeed Panda 21, I don't consider vanilla Colonization IV as a good game. It was not balanced, uninteresting, bland, limited, dumbed-down. I'm not one of these players that believe game designers never make errors and all of what they do (sorry, all of what They Do) is gospell, perfect and untouchable.
    This mod, or predecessors like RaR and TaC are vastly superior to vanilla Colonization. There is a reason why the game did not sold that well initially.
     
  14. Vorpal+5

    Vorpal+5 Venturing in Erebus

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    For the record, Colonization 1994 designers are Sid Meier and Bryan Reynolds (praise to BR, one of the best designer ever, he did SMAC).

    Colonization 2008? Someone named H. Edward Piper. This is the first and then only game on which he was lead designer. Go figure ...
     
  15. PPanda0421

    PPanda0421 Chieftain

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    Vanilla Civ4Col did not have many sales reasons but it was not because of balance issues. Mainly because people thought it was a cash grab following the success of civilization 4 which the core game is based on. It was dumbed-down/bland/limited version of that. I mean if you already have Civ 4 why spend another $20-$40 (I forget how much it cost at that time) for another version with less features? Only the peeps familiar with colonization will be interested. Perhaps die-hard civilization fans who just need to collect all versions of civilizations will try it as well.

    Of course mods will the majority of the time always be superior to vanilla game. They add more challenges, experiences, tons of new features and sometimes try to balance vanilla gameplay. Other mods will add super OP features to vanilla, just for the sake of fun.
     
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  16. PPanda0421

    PPanda0421 Chieftain

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    Yes, I'm pretty sure the majority of us know who Sid Meier is. He created MicroProse and still works at Firaxis now. In fact, Firaxis company is located in Hunt Valley, Maryland and was literally down the road where I worked. I no longer live in Maryland but I remember finding out years later (after moving to Maryland) that Firaxis is my company's next door neighbor. I remember they offered some kind of tours around their office. Now that I think about it, I forgot to go on their tours :(. Could've met the creator of Pirates!, Civilization series, Railroad Tycoon, etc.

    I still have the original boxes of Pirates!, Civilization 2 (bought for $100 when it first came out), and Railroad Tycoon. Shows how old I am lol...
     
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  17. PPanda0421

    PPanda0421 Chieftain

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    I don't like it when people call a game's key feature cheating. So does that make everyone who plays the game as it was designed, cheaters? A while back in the 7 Days to Die forums, someone said that people who play with mods are cheaters... Imagine the backlash they got.

    Cheating is a big no-no in gaming. If you call someone a cheater or imply they are cheating somehow, you'd better be prepared.
     
  18. PPanda0421

    PPanda0421 Chieftain

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    That's part of the game. That's what docks are for. You can literally buy/hire colonists for $. With enough crosses you get them for 'free'. Taking over AI cities to get colonists is another way for getting them for 'free.' You might have noticed I used quotes around free. They're not really free as you have to generate crosses (build chapel, church, allocate one person to buildings, etc) to get those colonists. Same goes for capturing cities and getting their colonists. You're using resources/units/time to take over those cities.

    You are free to not buy experts/colonists from Europe or 'delete unit' for any colonists you get after capturing a city but don't say it's cheaty when others want to take that route.
     
  19. Ramstormp

    Ramstormp Chieftain

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    I apologise. I did not mean to imply that you or anyone else was cheating. Sorry if I offended you. I was simply trying to paint a roundabout picture of how I feel about this issue. I guess I should have used some other word like AI handicap, but cheat was the word that came. I don't know anything about world wide gaming conventions. This is the only forum I have ever been interested in. I am learning.... by doing, and am probably never going to reach expert levels. Actually I am about to be buried in a razed heap of ruins is what it feels like.

    To paint another picture: To me it would be like playing the world (map) dominating board game called Risk with someone that gets to collect 2 cards per invaded country and get to have max 10 cards on his hand instead of 1 per country/max 5 so that he might have a better chance to win in some way, and then get all those 10 cards, or whatever he has, once I kill him off. I don't need the same handicap he does. Why should I reap such benefits when I am not in need of a handicap? Would it be so bad if 5 of those 10 cards were automatically discarded?

    Manually deleting units seems to destroy immersion, but maybe I'll try it. Would be nice if I never had to see them, that's all.

    Also, of course I buy people at the docks now and then. I will usually not buy an expert at the dollar sign store since I prefer dealing with the random people that show up.I should not have brought that up since that just caused more confusion. I was referring to the way the AI is given extra money to blow. Not actually working hard in our farms and churches like poor humans have to along with the little money we can make.
     
  20. PPanda0421

    PPanda0421 Chieftain

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    Ah I see. Well another gaming word is: overpowered or OP. For example, a feature or character/unit can be OP - gives way too much of an advantage. You can also say it's unbalanced but again I don't agree that this feature is unbalanced or OP. Capturing cities then getting all units within those cities is a game feature, a concept passed down from the original colonization and you have to work for it. It's just another method of getting colonists/experts.

    Just thought of something. The European AI can also take your cities and all colonists within them. If you can do it, so can they. So don't think of it as your advantage as the AI can do the same as well.

    Haha Risk! I had that board game back in the day and loved it! Haven't played it in ages though and completely forgot all the rules, unfortunately :(.

    I don't remember all the advantages the AI gets at high levels but I don't really pay attention to them. All I know is, I can't keep up with them at high level difficulties and they usually get all the FFs first. Just like in the Civ games at higher levels the AI will build all the wonders way before you. If someone has a strategy
    to get the good FFs first at revolutionary difficulty, that'd be nice to see.
     

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