Problem: fighters not intercepting from carrier

[sleepsy]

Greetings to all civ players.

On my last game I observed situation when my carrier full of fighters on air superiority and placed just by my city offered no protection against bombing runs of my opponent (bombing that city with non-stealth bombers). I never saw any interception in about 5 turns and in each turn there came 2 or 3 bombers. After I moved the carrier into the city, woke the fighters, put them on AS again, things went well.

I have already discussed this issue with Roland Johansen in this thread. He created useful Carrier intercept test scenario with 3 carriers and 12 fighters which had shown similar results - there was no response from the fighters at all. Anyway, if the carrier was moved away and back into operational range of bombers, fighters intercepted as they should. Scenario can be obtained in the mentioned thread.

The question is if anyone else has the same experience. This looks like a bug but before reporting it, I want to be sure I am not missing something important.

The situation is:
- playing with C3C 1.22 default rules
- carrier was loaded with 4 fighters (4.2.6) and placed in the tile adjacent to the city
- attacking bombers were non-stealth bombers (0.2.10) thus having 50% chance to be intercepted
- none of the bombers was intercepted in 4 turns when bombing the city
- fighters intercepted corretly after moved to city
- animations were ON
- and finally: I am very sure that all the fighters were on AS while on carrier. No recon, no rebase, just AS.

 

[Charles 22]

Greetings to all civ players.

On my last game I observed situation when my carrier full of fighters on air superiority and placed just by my city offered no protection against bombing runs of my opponent (bombing that city with non-stealth bombers). I never saw any interception in about 5 turns and in each turn there came 2 or 3 bombers. After I moved the carrier into the city, woke the fighters, put them on AS again, things went well.

I have already discussed this issue with Roland Johansen in this thread. He created useful Carrier intercept test scenario with 3 carriers and 12 fighters which had shown similar results - there was no response from the fighters at all. Anyway, if the carrier was moved away and back into operational range of bombers, fighters intercepted as they should. Scenario can be obtained in the mentioned thread.

The question is if anyone else has the same experience. This looks like a bug but before reporting it, I want to be sure I am not missing something important.

The situation is:
- playing with C3C 1.22 default rules
- carrier was loaded with 4 fighters (4.2.6) and placed in the tile adjacent to the city
- attacking bombers were non-stealth bombers (0.2.10) thus having 50% chance to be intercepted
- none of the bombers was intercepted in 4 turns when bombing the city
- fighters intercepted corretly after moved to city
- animations were ON
- and finally: I am very sure that all the fighters were on AS while on carrier. No recon, no rebase, just AS.

I'm not so sure this is perhaps a bug, but more a problem of interpretation. I know some of you would expect CV fighters to cover cities, but I can't think of a historical case of that happening. It's routine for fighters to cover the CV itself. If, OTOH, the fighters don't even cover the CV hex, then you have a problem.

Having said that I wonder whether if you put the CV in port if it would cover for all raids of that hex? If so it would be a method of covering the city. What I suspect is that the range of carrier fighters for purposes of air superiority is cut down to zero (the CV hex only).

 

[dexters]

In my most recent game, Fighters on Air Superiority on a Carrier parked near a conquest city intercepted a bomber from the AI.

 

[Charles 22]

In my most recent game, Fighters on Air Superiority on a Carrier parked near a conquest city intercepted a bomber from the AI.

So what is the effective AS range? It might not have been the AS from the carrier but from another city. I've been surprised sometimes that some of my non-AS cities ended up getting covered by AS from somewhere else before. For what was described above if those were jet fighters it sounds like it would be impossible if they were truly covering any range beyond the carrier. If they were regular fighters OTOH it wouldn't be too surprising as they are fairly useless often enough.

 

[Bloodied66]

Im sure that fighters on Carriers do intercept. In one of my recent games i had a large amount of carriers parked off the enemy coast. When war came and they tried to bombard some of my ships, the fighter would intercept (and yes, it was the fighter and not the AA defense of the ship). Maybe they don't protect cities if they are on carriers tho.

 

[dexters]

AS range is 1/2 of operational range if memory serves me right.

 

[Warspite2]

Not sure about carrier fighters intercepting bombers which attempt to bomb a city. Although, I thought I have seen that happen before where they did indeed intercept. I was about to say that maybe fighters on carriers work how Charles 22 mentions. But how you say if the carriers were moved out of the bombers range then back in, the fighters intercepted then. This makes me believe it may possibly be a bug. Unless there is a much smaller chance an AS fighter stationed on a carrier will intercept bombers attacking land targets. If it was like this though, I think it would be mentioned somewhere in the civlopedia.

I do know that I done carrier strikes on land with one carrier, all AS fighters and another carrier bombers. When the bombers would attack land targets or a city, if they were intercepted by enemy fighters, my carrier fighters would cover them and fight the enemy fighters. I also believe an offshore carrier with AS fighters would cover ground forces as well, I am nearly sure I have seen it happen. In other words, say you land 6 infantry on an enemy shore, you also have a carrier near the landing zone with all AS fighters. If an enemy bomber would attempt to bomb the infantry, your carrier fighters would intercept as normal.

Most of my sure thinking has been with C3 and not C3C. I am wondering if any of this changed in C3C? Probably not. I guess a test scenario can proove many things. I have to check it out and that other thread, see what I think.

 

[Siddhartha]

I have never had a fighter based on a carrier intercept in any situation (i.e. protecting a city or the carrier). I never bothered to look into it because I just assumed that fighters based on carriers weren't able to intercept. I never considered it could be a game bug.

 

[Warspite2]

I just created my own test scenario in C3C v1.22. Fighters on carriers do intercept in all situations just as if they are in a city. Read on... the scenario was setup as so... 3 carriers anchored adjacent to the coast with 4 fighters each (non-jet), 1 enemy city with 10 infantry and 20 bombers. Surrounding this enemy city I placed my own army of 4 groups of soldiers, 2 with 10 infantry each and 2 with 10 marines each. After starting the scenario I set all the fighters aboard the carriers to AS. I ended the turn without declaring war and attacking with my ground forces. The next turn, I attacked with one infantry of the groups and declared war. I ended my turn and here came the enemy bombers, each of them attacking all of the 4 groups of my soldiers at random. While they attacked my soldiers, off the carriers launched my AS fighters which clearly intercepted and shot down approximately 6 out of the 20 bombers. Also Damaged at least 2 additional ones. Not bad

Conclusion... this certainly confirms that AS fighters not only intercept but will also protect friendly ground forces ashore, ships or anything else from aircraft attack. I am thinking the 1 turn wait maybe what caused confusion here. Because if I just set my fighters to AS on the same turn, declared war, and them enemy bombers launched the next turn, the AS fighters won't attack. So if they are switched to AS the same turn, they won't attack until your next turn. Seems realistic, it takes time to re-outfit a fighter from bombing or recon to air superiority missions, especially on a carrier.

I am going to try a couple of other tests and see what happens. For example, I will try and make the city my own, put an enemy city near it with bombers. See if my carrier AS fighters intercept them after a turn.

Later, I will attach this test scenario to another post if anyone else would like to try.

 

[Warspite2]

Ok, tried another test scenario. This one extra confirms it Here it goes... set me up a city along the coast, placed 3 carriers just off that coast with 4 fighters each (again, not even jets). Put in 24 infantry to defend the city and thats it. Just up north of this city, I placed an enemy city, put in 10 infantry and 20 bombers there. Just adjacent to that enemy city a placed 2 groups of 4-6 infantry each for my side. Started scenario, put all fighters on carriers on AS, ended turn. Next turn comes around, I attack the enemy city with 1 infantry to get the war declared. Ended my turn and here come the enemy bombers to bomb my city. Once again off launched my AS fighters from the carriers to intercept the enemy bombers. Almost all of my 12 fighters were able to intercept, shot down about 5 bombers, damaged about 3 and 2 of my fighters were shot down.

So this is it, there is no doubt about it now. The only thing to remember is this, if you set your fighters on AS they will not intercept on the same turn. It takes 1 turn to re-arm or however you want to look at it for AS to start intercepting. So it goes like this, you set your fighters to AS on your carriers and end your turn. Enemy bombers come in and bomb away, they will not intercept now. Next turn, you leave the carrier fighters in AS mode, don't change it. Now if the bombers attack, you will enjoy some nice air battles as they clearly launch from the carriers and make quick work out of the bombers.

Attached are the test scenarios if anyone wants to try. The 03 confirms carrier intercept to protect friendly units. The 04 confirms defense of city from AS carrier fighters.

 

[Warspite2]

One more thing confirmed through another test... Fighters on AS in cities work the same way as they do aboard the carriers. So say one turn you use your fighters for recon and bombing, next turn you change them to AS. Bombers come in and bomb the heck out of the city, there will be no interception yet. Now the next turn, if there are any fighters still left after the bombers bombed them, they will now intercept provided you don't change them. I think even if you reset them to AS, it will do just that, reset it. Then they will wait another turn before attacking. Well, hope this clears things up. It certainly does for me.

 

[Charles 22]

Not sure about carrier fighters intercepting bombers which attempt to bomb a city. Although, I thought I have seen that happen before where they did indeed intercept. I was about to say that maybe fighters on carriers work how Charles 22 mentions. But how you say if the carriers were moved out of the bombers range then back in, the fighters intercepted then. This makes me believe it may possibly be a bug. Unless there is a much smaller chance an AS fighter stationed on a carrier will intercept bombers attacking land targets. If it was like this though, I think it would be mentioned somewhere in the civlopedia.

I do know that I done carrier strikes on land with one carrier, all AS fighters and another carrier bombers. When the bombers would attack land targets or a city, if they were intercepted by enemy fighters, my carrier fighters would cover them and fight the enemy fighters. I also believe an offshore carrier with AS fighters would cover ground forces as well, I am nearly sure I have seen it happen. In other words, say you land 6 infantry on an enemy shore, you also have a carrier near the landing zone with all AS fighters. If an enemy bomber would attempt to bomb the infantry, your carrier fighters would intercept as normal.

Most of my sure thinking has been with C3 and not C3C. I am wondering if any of this changed in C3C? Probably not. I guess a test scenario can proove many things. I have to check it out and that other thread, see what I think.

If that happened, that sounds very wild. I mean we never see fighters intercept "for" (not against) bombers any other time.

 

[Charles 22]

One more thing confirmed through another test... Fighters on AS in cities work the same way as they do aboard the carriers. So say one turn you use your fighters for recon and bombing, next turn you change them to AS. Bombers come in and bomb the heck out of the city, there will be no interception yet. Now the next turn, if there are any fighters still left after the bombers bombed them, they will now intercept provided you don't change them. I think even if you reset them to AS, it will do just that, reset it. Then they will wait another turn before attacking. Well, hope this clears things up. It certainly does for me.

No, no, no, no, no. When AS is set it will affect that turn directly. There are only two things that seem to keep them from intercepting: definitely, if it just transferred over, because you can't do anything with it that turn. IOW, setting it for AS in the original place doesn't mean it carries over to the transferred place with that order intact, and also, and this is just a guess, I'm thinking that heavy damage 'might' keep them some (not altogether).

It really wouldn't make sense for a fighter to be put on AS, and then the turn after it's effective when you consider the timeline of the turns, and also when you consider how near impossible that would be when they can get creamed pretty bad from bombers that transfer turn anyway. Frankly time being considered the fighters should be able to transfer and AS on the same turn, but I guess that might give the game something of a gamey feel.

 

[Warspite2]

Not sure if it is intended to affect the current turn directly, but it certainly is not. On these test scenarios, I have set them up particularly to test these exact things out. I had not changed any of the default rules or anything and what is happening is exactly this. Those AS fighters are not intercepting on the turn they are set to and don't until the next turn. The scenario is setup so all of the fighters are placed directly on the carriers so none of them are rebased or anything. If you try either of these scenarios you will see exactly what I am talking about. Even if they are placed on the cities, same results, interception don't seem to go into effect until the next turn. I think Roland Johansen and sleepsy here had confirmed this also in the other thread, that it seems to take a turn to go into effect. My finds are the exact same. So like I said, I am not sure if it is supposed to effect the same turn, but it certainly is not. I am wondering if this is something that had changed in C3C, I don't remember this in C3. Bombardment as we all know had changed in C3C so this may have as well. I just don't ever remember reading anything about this changing.

As far as my bombers being cover by my own AS fighters, I know I have done this before and could almosty swear I have seen it in action. I am not 100% sure if those fighters were coming from a city or not though. One way to find out... I am going to try another test scenario later tonight after work on this issue, see if they do indeed do this.

 

[Charles 22]

Are you saying that you see a bomber approach, then the interceptor -and- your escort????? Or are you saying the bomber approaches, then it cuts out, then the escort and interceptor tangle, and then the bomber goes it alone???? I've never seen anything even remotely close to either of those things. If you set up the bombers on automatic bombard maybe that makes a difference, sicne I alway do it manually. One thing that might be folling you is that you're looking at it when the enemy is doing it. IOW, if the enemy sends a bomber, then sends a fighter (oh so very rare), and then sends another bomber it may look as though it's an escort of one or two bombers, when they're actually just three separate raids.

Anyway, if you're really certain about the AS being the next turn then, but it sure isn't right. One thing that gets me about that though...put one on AS and try to use it again that turn, you cannot. Just as a bomber can bomb on the same turn you'd think the fighter could AS the same turn. What's really dumb about that, is that if it is as you say, you could be pertually seeing the AS isn't working, only to grab that plane aagin, thinking you will "really" make it AS this time, only to have it seemingly not work again. I don't know, I'm still leaning on it working that turn, but perhaps with my playstyle it doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

I am using C3C BTW, and I have played all the previous versions.

 

[pedrov]

In the basic Civ3. Interceptors could only intercept in the square they were protecting. That is, if a flight of enemy bombers passed directly over Athens to bomb Sparta, only the interceptors in Sparta would respond. Those in Athens would only respond to an attack on Athens. Similarly, if the enemy bombers passed over a carrier before bombing Sparta, interceptors on the carrier would not respond. They would respond if the enemy bombers had targeted the hex the carrier is in (e.g., attacking a Battleship stacked in with the Carrier). I'm guessing this is the same in newer versions of civ, I just got them and haven't finished my own scenarios yet.

 

[Roland Johansen]

I agree with Warspite2's conclusions. I've made a scenario in the other thread and came to the same conclusions:
If you put a fighter on AS, then it can't intercept anything in the interturn directly following that turn. It will intercept on the next interturn.

About the range of AS: It has always been equal to half the operational range of the fighter. Any unit bombed at a distance closer than this range from the fighters location is protected by the fighter.

 

[Warspite2]

Done one more AS test scenario. It seems that a fighter on AS will not attack another enemy fighter who intercepts one of your attacking bombers. I thought for sure I have seen this happen before but I must have been mistaking because in the test scenario its certainly NOT doing this. So scratch this because this does not happen. As far as the other tests, they still stand without a doubt.

So the final conclusion of all of these tests (including the one that Roland done) are as follows...

1) Fighters set to AS will not intercept on the same turn they were set to. The AS goes into effect the following turn.

2) AS Fighters will intercept enemy aircraft that attempt to attack friendly ground units.

3) Carrier and/or City stationed Fighters on AS work the exact same way. So it makes no difference as long as its on AS then it will intercept.

4) If enemy aircraft attack your city and you have AS Fighters on Carriers stationed off the coast, they will launch and intercept the enemy aircraft.

5) If you want to your Fighters to destroy enemy Fighters, send your Fighters into their city or at their Carrier on bombing missions.

I think this is it, if I can think of anything else I will post again. If someone else has anything to add, post away

 

[sleepsy]

First of all, thanks Warspite2 for joining in and doing the test scens. I am realy happy you agree with the conclusions discussed by me and Roland Johansen in the other thread - that it takes 1 turn for AS fighter to start working properly. I write 'properly' because I also agree with Charles22 that is crazy to have to wait for air protection 1 extra turn. Having an opponent with a lot of bombers ready, this turn can be too long time - as the bombers will decimate your defenses very effectively. Your troubles are even multiplied because the bombers (as far as I know) first focus on aircrafts when bombing.

But logical or not, this is what we have already observed/tested, and I am now quite convinced it realy works this way. I believe this is very important to know, because war can be declared by bombers incoming to your city and losing one more turn can be critical. Also, reissuing AS order makes it in fact to cancel AS for this turn completely...and this does not seem to be right, indeed. Reminds me civ1 when attempts to reissue Fortify for ground units had the same effect, if I remember well. Furthermore, there is no clear indicator that fighters are on AS or not - you just see if you can Activate or Wake it...

Concerning the AS range - it is realy half of the operational range (=3 for fighters) but do not be confused by fact that it is only in the tiles surrounding the drop-zone. In the other words, if a bomber flies over your city/unit to bomb somewhere away, it will be never intercepted enroute - only in the bombing area (assuming you have fighters on AS ready, of course).

To weaken/destroy enemy fighters, you realy have to send in some fighters first. Bombers won't do the job even if your AS fighters are parked neraby. Alternatively, you can use cruise missiles instead of fighters as suggested by Roland Johansen.

One last thing to add: your fighters will intercept bombers bombing not only (ground/naval) units - they'll go even after those who try to bomb your tile improvements like railroads, mines etc. I don't think they will protect units/tiles of your ally, only your own - just to have it complete.

 

[Warspite2]

NP. I am not sure if thats a good thing having to wait that turn. I guess with carriers you can put the fighters on AS ahead of time before you get into enemy territory. If the fighters are on the cities though and the enemy declares war and you have not set your fighters on AS earlier, you could be in trouble. When all of those bombers catch your fighters on the ground it could be the end of your air support. So this kind of makes carriers an even better choice because they can move unlike cities. I did try out a test with using my fighters on bombing runs to destroy enemy AS fighters, that actually worked pretty good. Because the enemy interceptors would attack them and they would fighter each other. My bombers usually get damaged bad or shot down if I do that with them, but the fighters seem to fight back. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention improvements glad you did.