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PROD Shadow - Sirian's TDG "Alternate Timelines"

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by Sirian, Apr 27, 2002.

  1. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2001
    Messages:
    3,651
    Location:
    Pennsylvania, USA
    This is the Shadow Thread for Sirian's Training Day Game (qv).


    * We're going to have some blurred results because of players finding out things in their versions of the game when they explore in different directions and do different things. This will lead to foreknowledge of some game data that would not be accessible in a normal game. This is unavoidable here, but I ask that players give thought to this and make whatever effort they deem appropriate to base their decisions on what is known in the Official Game. Don't bend over backward, just... pay attention. We are aiming here more at learning than winning, but you don't want to get used to having bonus information.

    * We're going to have lots of confusion about this, and also more "contamination" from "alternate timelines" if I try to run everything in one thread. Therefore, I have concluded that I should run ONLY the Official Game in the original PROD thread, and open a shadow thread for everything else.

    * The PROD thread is for the Official Game. What shall be posted there is the reports and results of the player who is Up on each turn, along with my critique and any questions and answers players have in regard to those results.

    * This thread will handle everything else, including the turn reports of all players not Up on that turn, all critiques of these reports, and even my own reports from my shadow turns.

    * Players who are UP should avoid reading any further in the shadow thread once others start posting shadow reports from the same turn. IE, it's OK to refer back to the shadow thread as a reference, but I ask that you not do so when you're Up, especially in regard to finding out what others have done on the turn you're about to play, so that your official turn results will be as "pure" as you can manage under these conditions.


    Everybody is shadowing the game but not part of the Roster, or who in on the Roster but NOT currently "Up", should post their turn reports here. This will include me, when I am not Up.



    As for how to post files with your reports, there are a few simple steps.

    1) Please identify your savegames. This is ESSENTIAL, so that nobody ever gets files confused. That could waste a lot of time and cause major hassles. Please adopt the follow convention:

    Official Turns: no need to do anything special. Just "McProd of the English, ###year" is OK. For OFFICIAL TURNS ONLY.

    Shadow Turns: Name them "Prod, Shadow MyName, ###year.sav"
    Examples:

    Prod, Shadow ChrTh, 2550BC.sav
    Prod, Shadow Sirian, 750BC.sav
    Prod, Shadow Zot, 50BC.sav
    Prod, Shadow ObserverXYZ, 1000AD.sav

    IMPORTANT: if your savegame doesn't observe the naming protocol and you post a shadow turn with "McProd of the English" I will NOT deal with that file, and you will not get any feedback on that turn. No second chances, so do what is appropriate to remind yourself. This is important to SAVE TIME and preserve our energies for the game instead of wasting them on sorting files that are inadequately labeled.


    2) Please identify all files related to this game in the following formats:

    For Official Turns: gamename-civ-date.extension
    Examples:

    prod-english-4000bc.zip
    prod-english-3500bc.zip
    prod-english-50ad.zip

    For Shadow Turns: gamename-shadow-yourname-date.extension

    prod-shadow-sirian-3000bc.zip
    prod-shadow-chrth-500ad.zip
    prod-shadow-zot-850ad.zip


    3) Currently there is some problem at the CivFanatics file server regarding CAPS for file extensions (.ZIP .JPG etc). So please make sure your files have their extensions in lower case.


    4) When you go to upload a file, you have to click Reply to one of the threads, then scroll down to the bottom of the forum reply page. On the far right at the bottom is an Upload Files option. Click that, it opens a mini-window, you can upload up to three files at a time.

    5) Once the files are on the server, you have to include a link to them in your post, where appropriate. You can link to images with the IMG vb Code button above the body of your reply message, and can link to zip files with the HTTP:// button.

    I keep a shortcut for use in pasting the URL in a text file on my desktop, so I don't have to remember the URL and don't have to type it over and over. Here's a copy:

    http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/

    Just add your filename to that in the IMG and HTTP:// buttons.


    The game is under way. You'll find the 4000BC save file and more information in the official PROD thread.


    - Sirian
     
  2. Rowain deWolf

    Rowain deWolf Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2002
    Messages:
    813
    Location:
    Vienna/Austria
    Don't read if you have not played till 3500BC now



    4000BC(0): Start looks good on a River with 2bonus-grasslands.Nevertheless I activate the Scout and move 1 Tile South-East on the hill. Spot something that looks like a Coast but moving the Settler one tile East brings too many hills and Forest into the City-zone so i decide to settle were we are. London founded Scout ordered. The Goth-trobe next to London teaches us Warrior Code. Worker moves 1 SW to mine the grassland.

    3950BC(1):Scout moves 1East and i'm glad i didn't move the Settler What looked like a Coast was only a small pond.Worker starts mining. The Research of BronzeWorking started(18turns at 0 income). Why:a) I like to research IronWorking ASAP to know where the Iron is. b) It was faster to research then anything else except CeremonialBurial and CB is cheaper to trade then BW

    3900BC(2): Scout moves 1 East

    3850BC(3): Scout moves another tile East and discovers a floodplain with wheet . The hill next to it would be a nice location for another city.

    3800BC(4):Scout moves 1 South

    3750BC(5): Scout B fready moves 2 tile to the west. London starts Barracks Reason we have enough shield to finish them before we reach Size 3.
    Scout A moves 1 Tile South and spotts some Gems in the Mountains

    3700BC(6): Amoves one more SOuth discovers some Grassland ; B moves 1 west and find a River and some Dyes

    3650BC(7): A moves 1 SE+1E; B 1 more to the West; Worker finish mining and start road.

    3600BC(8): A moves 1 north from this fine Lookout he sees the Coast and a lot of Gems in the Jungle. B moves one N and one NW a fertile grassland with Wheet discovered

    3550BC(9): A moves 1 North; B one tile NW and one N on a hill. Game, Incense and a minor tribe discovered.

    3500BC(10): London expands Due to this another Dye-field becomes visible. Worker finishes Road asnd moves 1 North to mine the nextBonus-grassland. A moves 1NE and 1N along the Coastline. B visits the AngleTribe and they teach CeremonialBurial


    Thats all

    Rowain

    File:
    http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/prod-shadow-rowain-3500BC.zip
     
  3. Black Cursor

    Black Cursor Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2001
    Messages:
    64
    Aye, the Scots are a thrifty lot and it behooves me to manage our meager means mendaciously while minding the measure of my modest medication :smoke:. Onward!

    4000 BC (1): We start on a river near terrain that has lots of shield potential - grassland/shield, forests, hills, mountains. However, of immediate importance is the adjacent village; it would be bad if angry warriors appeared after founding our capital -- threatening our scout, worker and treasury. No sir, this little Black Du... er, Block will found elsewhere!

    With that (not)settled ;), it's time to put the Scout to work. He moves SW twice ending up on hills. While admiring the view, he spots Dyes in the nearby jungle. Fearing for their future, the Settler(s) head S away from the unknown village.

    Left alone, the Worker(s) start to irrigate the grassland/shield. Now this is possibly a :smoke: thing to do under Despotism, but in order for the capital to take advantage of all that shield potential it has to GROW first -- bringing water to the surrounding plains is thus, vital.

    3950 BC (2): London founded on hills by the river -- the extra defensive bonus will serve us well. Citizens start working the grassland soon to be irrigated. The nearby village is still a future threat (hut will be popped upon border expansion), so a Warrior band is trained. The Scout again moves twice, W/NW and sees another river.

    The Science Advisor recommends researching Bronze Working but I veto that, choosing Writing. Since research will finish in 40 regardless, I reduce Science to 20% (1 beaker) for a gain of +3gpt. Yes, I have visions of a Great Library in our future :grad:.

    3900 BC (3): Scout moves twice, NE/NW and sees a grassland/cattle! A Scout can move twice so I use that advantage -- my initial move is to easy terrain, finishing in more difficult terrain, in this case forest. If the Scout only moves once per turn, that turn is wasted, IMHO.

    3850 BC (4): Scout N/NW and sees forest/game.

    3800 BC (5): Irrigation complete. If you're so inclined, pass the :smoke: as the tile remains 2 food/1 shield/1 gold -- same as the nearby unimproved tile. We have an investment in this patch of land, so the Worker(s) start building a road here.

    The Scout moves N/E and spots an inland lake and plains/cattle along the way. Looks like we've found our next town site -- after border expansion, the town can work 2 cattle, game, 2 grassland/shield and it's on a river as well!

    3750 BC (6): Scout moves NE/E and crosses this second river.

    Warrior(s) produced so our citizenry can sleep better at night rather than think about the strange goings-on at the neighbors' :eek:. Since the first Scout has performed so exceptionally, a second starts training.

    3700 BC (7): Our Warriors are ordered to drop their dice and get off their hinders -- they scale the E)astern mountains. Their feeble protests fall on deaf ears; the neighboring village will be absorbed in 5 turns, so the threat is many years away.

    Scout moves N/NW and while at the crest of a mountain ridge, sees another village and the cobalt borders of a rival civilization. Both require immediate investigation.

    3650 BC (8): With the road complete, the Worker(s) head NW outside our immediate borders -- with a rival close-by, our future settlement efforts need to be hastened by additional roads. Our Warrior(s) follow the workers at a distance.

    The Scout approaches foreign soil, confirming Germany as neighbors. The capital, Berlin is garrisoned by at least one warrior party, while a nearby worker tills the roadside land. Our Scout contacts the Germans :beer:.

    Their leader, Bismark is quite Annoyed at the intrusion and quickly points out how advanced they are, how impressive their culture is, and how their Warriors outnumber ours. Regardless, the makings of a deal are here despite our conterpart's arrogance -- we obtain Bronze Working and 10 gold pieces (draining their feeble treasury in the process) for Alphabet. We leave Bismark to his language-studies, more Cautious than before.

    3600 BC (9): Scout moves SW/W adjacent to the second village. Worker(s) start on the road to the second river; Warrior(s) keep pace.

    3550 BC (10): The Warrior(s) take time to camp in the nearby forest; they will return to guard the workers anon.

    Cautiously, the Scout approaches the desert village -- the Sejuk tribe is in fact, friendly and give us 25 gold. After a quick meal, the Scout continues W into the desert.

    3500 BC (10+) :rolleyes:: Scout moves W/NW noting desert/incense visible from the nearby hills in addition to another village. Warrior(s) finally remember their original charge and provide cover for the workers.

    The next turn will (would if this were the TRUE telling of years) determine if my fears were justified regarding the neighboring village. And with a final nod to those who choose to worry about the future (it's funny what thoughts go through the minds of men in skirts anyway :D) Warrior(s) replace the Scout in training, due in the next fifty or so years.

    Sleep well...

    ---> TBC (The Bed Cowering? :sleep: )

    File:
    http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/prod-shadow-tbc-3500ad.zip

    Of course this is really a ...3500bc.zip file <sigh>
     
  4. Zot

    Zot Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    44
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    0) 4000BC - Everything looks good right where we are. We are on a river, there is some hills we can mine, and some grassland for food! So I build a London right where we are. The neighboring Goth tribe teaches us Warrior Code, just because we built next to them! Start by training a warrior, to protect our civilization. I figure after the five turns to build the warrior, we will want to build a settler. We have a scout and a worker! I send the scout North, not sure why. Moved the worker onto the se grassland. That grassland has an extra gold for some reason, so I have London work that square and I figure I'll put a road there too.

    During the between turn time - I choose to research Ceremonial Burial at 100% science which takes 12 turns. This will enable us to build temples to expand our culture. F11 shows that we share the world with Russia, France, Germany, Babylonians, and Chinese.

    1) 3950BC - Start the worker building the road se of London. Move the scout NNW.

    2) 3900BC - Scout finds some cattle next to a lake NW of London.

    3) 3850BC - Move north of the cattle and end on top of a moutain. I see a village to the west.

    4) 3800BC - The Celts village decides to become a settler for us! They are on desert, so I don't like where they are already, but where oh where to move them? It will take a few turns to move them next to the cattle, which I think is where I want to go. Do I want to build the next village on top of the cattle? It would be optimal for city placement, but I am not sure if there are problems with doing it. I plan on building the next village NE of the cattle, which will still be the right distance from London, will still be on a river and the lake.
    The worker is done building the road next to London. I now get 2 gold out of that square. I move the worker to the NW of London so that it can connect London with the new village.

    5) 3750BC - We now have a warrior in London. I change to settler, which will take 15 turns. We should be able to grow to a size three in that time. The warrior shows that there are alot of mountians to the south. The worker starts building the road to the nw of London. The scout finds a blue border to the north. Damn, it looks like the germans are near us.

    6) 3700BC - The scout determine that it is Berlin. Bismark is annoyed that we exist. For our alphabet he will give us the secret of working with a metal called bronze and his treasury of 10 gold. This makes his cautious. The warrior moves west and finds jungle west of the mountians. One good thing is that there is dyes in one square, maybe more further west.

    7) 3650BC - Our scout uses moutains to get a good view of Berlin. Our celtic settler builds York. I never trust Bismark,so York immediatly starts training some villagers as spearmen, thanks to the German bronze working. The people admire the fact that we now have two villages, so they build me a building, which will hopefully become a spectacular palace.

    8) 3600BC - The worker has finished the second road square, so he moves in the direction of York. The warrior keeps exploring near the dyes. The scout finds more moutains north of the germans. We will probably want to cirle around the Germans and unfog the area to the east of the Germans and us.

    9) 3550BC - The scout finds two dyes north of Germany. The warrior finds what looks like ocean along with a good fishing spot. We will have Ceremonial Burial next turn, so we can start building temples!

    10) 3500BC - We figure out ceremonial burial and start working on iron working so that our swordsmen can deal with the Germans. London expands its cultural border and expands to a size 2. The settle will finish before we get to size three, so they are retrained to be spearmen in 3 turns, then we can work on settlers. Berlin has also expanded. London's expansion has revealed a dye just north of London, but outside our borders.

    Thinking back on things, I probably should have trained a scout or two in London before starting a settler, then I would not have had to change it on turn 10.

    prod-shadow-zot-3500bc.zip
     
  5. hotrod0823

    hotrod0823 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2001
    Messages:
    2,753
    Location:
    Connecticut
    (1)4000BC: Not going to build here so begin road with worker, Scout moves to NE and Goth tribe taught us Warrior Code, Move Settler SW to what will be London

    (2)3950BC: Settle London begin Warrior and start reaching Bronze Working, Scout moves North see Dyes, Worker continues roads

    (3)3900BC: Scout moves W, N to top of mountains see Cattle to NW and a river

    (4)3850BC: Worker moves NW, Scout W,NW to explore

    (5)3800BC: Scout N to hill top see minor tribe, Worker builds roads

    (6)3750BC: Scout reached tribe and a new settler joins our culture :cool:
    Settler head south out of the desert

    (7)3700BC: Warrior finished and start Settler, Warrior moves SW sees more dyes, Settler moves S, Scout W,W sees incense

    (8)3650BC: Settler SE sees 3 game, Scout to hill top and sees a minor tribe to South, Worker to N to start Road to what will be City Number 2 to the NW

    (9)3600BC: Settle York, start on warrior, Worker roads, Scout Sout to minor tribe Learns Maps :p See wheat SW of york, 1st Palace improvement

    (10)3550BC: Scout W,W not much out here, Warrior W to coast sees fish, BW set to be finished in 8 turns with 0 income, London size 2 in 2 and settler built in 12 - hopefully not too soon.


    http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/Prod-Shadow-Hotrod-3550BC.zip
     
  6. ChrTh

    ChrTh Mmm...tasty!

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2001
    Messages:
    6,255
    Location:
    Piedmont Triad, North Carolina
    Here are the results of my shadow turn:

    (first, the save:
    http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/prod-shadow-chrth-3500bc.zip)

    Turn 1 -- 4000 BC
    (Weird...I'm used to starting on Turn 0)
    Mmmm...goody hut...river...forest...shielded grasslands...
    How many gods did we need to sacrifice to for this starting position?
    I build Deep River right where the settler starts...I don't like to (because of the shielded grassland beneath the spot)...but I don't see a better spot.
    We learn Warrior Code! (Hooray for the Goths!)
    I'm building a Warrior to explore.
    Worker heads SW to mine shielded grassland...Scout heads West (looks flatter)
    On second thought, I decide I'm going to build a Scout...I like it when I can grab as many Goody Huts, and that extra move helps.
    +2 gold per turn...but will it last?

    Turn 2 -- 3950 BC
    My soothsayers need guidance...I decide to go for Bronze Working...I feel so naked without Spearmen...36 turns. Still earning +2 a turn, so I up science to 90% to break even, and it cuts research time in half. (I don't feel the need to earn gold at this point, because I hopefully will bulk up the bankroll from goody huts).
    Worker starts building a Road (since we're Commerical).
    My scout finds Dyes to the West...in addition to a river...that may be a good place for a second city.

    Turn 3 -- 3900 BC
    Some jungle in the W...so building a city there may not be a good idea.

    Turn 4 -- 3850 BC
    O Ho! A Wheat...and a city could be placed on a hill that grabs the river, the wheat, and the dyes..but at what cost? Will it screw up city optimization? We'll have to see.
    Oy, the Worker isn't done yet. This is going to be tough, usually I play an Industrious Civ.

    Turn 5 -- 3800 BC
    More exploring. Worker finishes road, starts mine.

    Turn 6 -- 3750 BC
    Scout is done. I order up another.
    I send Scout N, doesn't reveal much. W Scout finds a lot of nice land..but I'm going to head him back S then E to our position...I think I see the furthest limit of our low-corruption cities already.

    Turn 7 -- 3700 BC
    N Scout moves on to mountain, reveals Cow and Dyes! Again, a central city that grabs all (and river) could be built...but again, we need to dotmap it first.
    W Scout finds...border. I think it's the Russians...I'm going to try to avoid them for now, they're always so demanding.

    Turn 8 -- 3650 BC
    So far no Russians. More exploring.

    Turn 9 -- 3600 BC
    The Russians find me! Doh!
    Hrm, they're offering Bronze Working for Alphabet straight up...it'll save me 8 turns (and now that I've met them...I'll need it!)...I counteroffer and get 10 gold as well.
    I order up Iron Working (you can tell that Cathy spooks me). 29 turns.
    More exploring...a Goody Hut is spotted, as is...a border! Dark Blue. Huh...who's Dark Blue? Germans?
    Aw crap...

    Turn 10 -- 3550 BC
    The Huns teach me Ceremonial Burial. Good for them--with the Russians and Germans as neighbors, we'll need it (I swear, if the Persians are to the South and the Zulu to the East...)
    Cool, I open up a hidden Goody Hut in the Jungle...and a friendly Celt Settler joins me! Of course, he's about 10 turns away from a useful spot...

    Turn 11(? -- I guess 4000 was Turn 0) -- 3500 BC
    Deep River grows...another Scout is built. I order up a spearman (will meet up with the returning Settler). I'll send this one east (to find the Persians, no doubt :rolleyes: )
    Some more land revealed, but that is all.
    Worker has finished Mine, I move him N to road/mine shielded grassland on River.
    It occurs to me now (that I've saved and exited) that I should've checked my rates to see if I could advantage myself...hrmmm...

    Time to see what everybody else did :)
     
  7. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2001
    Messages:
    3,651
    Location:
    Pennsylvania, USA
    4000BC: You passed up an opportunity to move your scout two tiles on the first turn. Sometimes that wouldn't matter, and you did head for the coastal tile to check it out. That wasn't bad, really; it was my first impulse too. Looking at the land, I saw we started on top of a bonus grassland tile with only two others nearby, lots of hills and forest peeking out from under the fog. As you thought, that's not a bad start for terrain, but it's not great. If those are the only bonus grassland tiles in range, the capital could grow to size 2 with "good tiles" and then it would be sucking wind already on something sub-optimal. With most civs you have to make a decision anyway, because you can't scout all around first then reload.

    If you had moved the scout west then south onto a hill, two tiles SW of the start point, you would have come to know those three grass are the only good food tiles ready to go. When I saw that, I decided not to found London on the starting tile. Losing one turn to move across the river onto a hill will be more than made up by having a third grassland (and on the river) to work. It won't take long at all once the capital is size 3+ for that extra strong tile to push past the loss of one turn.

    Nothing weak about your choice of capital location, though. So for your first major decision (where to plant the first city) and the thinking you put into it: B+ (on the American scale of A-F)

    Your worker activity: A+ Outstanding! :goodjob: The other bonus grass on the river is indeed the best tile, and working the mine first, then the road, is the right order. The first job of the starting worker is to find the best tile in range and improve it: irrigation to increase food to 4+ per turn (3+ under despotism), or if that's not an option (as it was not in our game), mine it. Then a road. Then on to the next best tile. Improved lands speeds production and research and, if food bonuses are available, growth rate.

    Scouting patterns for the whole round: A- Only complaint I have with your scouting was sending the first scout into the thick terrain and waiting to scout the easier-to-explore western direction for the second scout.

    3950BC: You blew a turn of research. The same turn you found your capital, you can go in to F6 and pick a research project. If you do, you get credit for the first turn. If you wait for the advisor to come to you, no research is done on the first turn. You did increase science to maximum, though, and that was good.

    Bronze Working? Intending to head right for Iron? That can be a great plan, especially on smaller maps where you have to hurry more to find the resources before AI settlers snatch them all up. It also gives you earlier access to swords. The pros of figuring out where the iron is depend on the map, so there's no way to know in advance how important the early knowledge will turn out to be. What is known, is the cost to your available options if you pursue this course. If not religious, you don't start with ceremonial burial and can't build temples. This means any new cities founded could not expand their borders, unless you either trade with someone else for the tech or get lucky (as did later) and pop it from a hut.

    Going for Bronze Working first is never weak, I do it all the time. Going Bronze-Iron right away is leaning toward the military gambit, ancient warfare. Not that you have to fight -- there's major benefit to locating (and hopefully securing) sources of iron. On the other hand, if the iron isn't right at hand anyway (within one city radius of your capital) then you'd have to make a major grab to go get it this early. If the lands are flat and the potential areas containing iron few, that might become a higher priority. In this case, we have a large mountain range just to our south, and odds are strong there's iron in there. Here's one more thing to consider: if you rush to iron research, you'll likely do so at full cost, 1st-civ prices, AND lower the cost for every AI you meet to follow in your tracks. So... if peaceful early expansion is the goal, this would not be the best research path. It's only the best if you have decided for sure you plan to attack your neighbors as soon as you can muster some units.

    NOTE TO ALL: the opening is all about priorities. Anything from which you get no immediate benefit is a waste. If any move not involving population/production growth can safely be allowed to wait, it SHOULD be made to wait. This is the big fish I'm going to be swinging around in the early rounds. The strongest opening is the one that grows the fastest without wasting resources (like units or cities lost to barbarians or AI military aggression).

    3750BC: Finish a scout, start a barracks? Barracks before even the first settler? That can be a good move for a militaristic civ, squeeze that barracks in there early and make all vet units from the capital. For a nonmilitaristic civ, it's too early. The ONLY reason to build a barracks right here and now is to immediately turn around and train two or three vet units to beeline for a neighbor with an archer gambit. Any other move and the barracks sits around doing nothing useful. Even an ancient conquest game plan, a barracks here is too soon. First you need some more cities.

    This barracks is the only move you made in your shadow turn that I find fault with. If built, it would take the biggest chunk out of your growth curve. The other things I criticized are minor points or judgement calls. This... is a major power-killer, unless it would be put to immediate use with an early rush-attack gambit, and those aren't the kinds of moves welcomed in SG's, since if the gambit fails, the players are in a very weak position.


    Overall Grade for this turn: B-

    :goodjob: count: Two. (Workers, Second Scout)
    :smoke: count: One. (Barracks too early)


    - Sirian
     
  8. ChrTh

    ChrTh Mmm...tasty!

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2001
    Messages:
    6,255
    Location:
    Piedmont Triad, North Carolina
    "3950BC: You blew a turn of research. The same turn you found your capital, you can go in to F6 and pick a research project. If you do, you get credit for the first turn. If you wait for the advisor to come to you, no research is done on the first turn."


    Yikes...I never knew this...see I'm learning already :)
     
  9. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2001
    Messages:
    3,651
    Location:
    Pennsylvania, USA
    4000BC: Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. :) You made the best possible move here, TBC. Unfortunately, the reason that led you to it is faulty. Anrgy warriors (and also settlers) do not pop out of huts on the first turn. In fact, I'm not even sure they ever do from a city founding. Angry locals may pop from a hut from borders expanding, but not from a settler settling. In any case, at game start, this is not a worry.

    Your scout destination was the one I picked, but... you moved in a straight line SW. More land would have been revealed if you had zigged along the diagonals, first W then S.

    Irrigating the grass is a definite :smoke: jobber. The first priority of workers is to identify the best tiles around your city and to improve those to their max potential. Plains are not the best tiles in this case. By the time those are needed, the game should be well enough along that you have more workers and can get irrigation out to them in some other way. (If it can wait, it SHOULD wait -- those plains can wait). First task should have been to start mining that bonus grassland the worker started on, then build a road.

    3950BC: This is the spot I chose for London as well. However, you made no mention of any of the reasons I had in mind for selecting this spot. You did recognize the defense value, though, and maybe you intuited other things as well, without realizing it. Or... maybe not. But either way, there IS something to be said for getting lucky.

    I chose this spot, S of the start tile, because there were only a few options, and this one stayed on the river without eating up Good Tiles and without moving out of range of the food tiles to the west (for long term potential). Moving SE or E would have moved away from food tiles and brought more hills/mountains into the picture. Not good. Moving NW or N would have moved off the river, a disaster! So there were only two GOOD options, and one was the tile we started on. If there had been just two more really strong tiles in range, I'd have stayed put. I moved because of the land, and you moved... away from the hut. :smoke:

    As for starting a warrior... a scout would do better for exploring, and since a military defensive unit or MP unit can wait, it SHOULD wait. The scout is the better choice. However, a warrior is not a bad choice. It can explore to the south a little bit (as quickly in the mountains as a scout could explore them) then return home, so that could be a good move, actually. It's a judgement call.

    As for research, if it were Diety, then beelining right to Literature and starting on the wonder after the first settler would be the ONLY hope of getting it, and even then you might not, since the AI's only need 240 shields to build it while you need 400. Any lower difficulty, this beeline is pure :smoke: -- the benefit gained from the great library would not equal the cost of pushing that hard that quickly to go get it. IF it were your goal, still better off to expand a bit and pick up either ceremonial burial or bronze working first. You could use another wonder (Pyramids, Oracle) to prebuild for the library and be SURE you'd get it, even on Emperor, so having the tech that quickly wouldn't help you. The 400 shields, and not the tech, would be your bigger obstacle. Once upon a time, the Minimum Science gambit was a good move, but then Firaxis did two things: they increased the length from 32 turns to 40, and they made changes to the AI's that increase their cooperation in not duplicating one another's research paths, meaning the whole tech tree flies by more quickly. The ONLY min science gambit now worthwhile is the one that beelines to mapmaking to get you some ships if you start isolated on an island. On the up side, at least you didn't lose the first turn of research. :)

    So for your capital founding and the thinking you put into it: D. A+ on location, but F on rationale for choosing it. D on workers, F on research plan, C on everything else these two turns, lots of little details overlooked.

    Not a great start there, but not all bad either. Also keep in mind, for THIS game, there will be no ancient wonders built by us. The goal I have chosen for us is rapid peaceful expansionism, since that is the part of the game on which you can build any other strategy and make it work.

    3750BC: after the warrior, start another scout? Should have done the scout first, then the warrior. Remember, your scouts are racing the AI units to get to the goody huts first, and the higher the difficulty level, the more units the AI's have to send out. (On Deity, as if the AI's didn't already have enough bonuses, they have so many free units that they get most of the huts, too! You really have to hustle to get anything for yourself).

    3650BC: hastening future settlements with roads? How about hastening the production of settlers with some mines here?? :) The first priority is to improve the land at the capital. Your settlers will be done sooner, so they'll be as far along as they would be with extra roads anyway! If it can wait, it SHOULD wait, and roads to other settlements can wait. Production is being LOST because the capital does not have fully improved Good Tiles to be working.

    Trading alphabet to the Germans is a disaster. They're scientific and the sooner they get to Literature, the sooner they crank out cheap libraries and take a commanding leap on their culture, their research, etc. Plus you have thoughts of the Great Library, but are going to make sure the AI's keep up with you on that line of research? :smoke: Maybe if you encountered another Commerical civ or someone else with alphabet and feared them giving it to the Germans anyway, then might as well get something for us if they are going to get the tech anyway. That can be a judgement call, it's a bit of a gamble to pass up a trade opportunity. Your move could even be the best one, depending on other factors we don't yet know about, but you don't seem to have thought about it. There are costs, as well as benefits, to trading techs. And since you did not start training spears, there was no immediate benefit to the bronze working in that regard, either. Trading cheap techs is one thing. Trading away Masonry or Alphabet is something else, and must be very carefully considered. AI's may start Pyramids once they have Masonry, which means the wonder race starts sooner, and Alphabet speeds them along toward mapmaking, literature, and republic.

    3500BC: you trained warriors then forgot their purpose? So another batch has to be trained? :) This means making do on one scout, which is not good for normal civs, and very bad for expansionist ones. The expansionist trait is only useful in terms of rapid exploration and grabbing of the goody huts. If an expansionist civ can pick up free settlers or techs or other bonuses to help their growth curve early on, they can really take off and fly! If they miss the boat on rapid expansion, they have failed to make use of their special ability and then it's gone, it's too late. Making the second scout wait was a judgement call, but now having to cancel it entirely and stick with warriors, might as well not have played an expansionistic civ at all.


    Great Library as a goal is an iffy choice, but could be done -- yet your moves didn't even support that plan.

    Overall grade for this round: D-

    :goodjob: count: One. (Enthusiasm. Hang in there, it will get better, I promise).
    :smoke: count: Four. (Workers. Research. Scouting. Inconsistent game plan).


    - Sirian
     
  10. Rowain deWolf

    Rowain deWolf Chieftain

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    First of Thanks alot for your Analyses :)
    and then some comments/Questions from me :

    Thinking about it i must confess that I never look on what Tile i start but i'll change that in the future.
    PS: Due to the expansion another bonus-grassland came into cityborders

    :eek: I didn't even know this!

    for BW instead of CB: a) I prefer Spear guarding Settler to Warrior and CB is the cheaper tech to trade from AI

    Uhm to be honest this was a 'I don't know what else to build' decision.
    None of the choices really pleased me: a settler would be ready several turns before we reach size 3; scout/Warrior would need two or three of them before the Settler else the settler is ready before size3; and Warriors would all be regular ( a thing i dislike)
    the reason why i then choose the Barrack was simple after finishing it would work the forest instaed the 2.grassland and reach size3 same time as i finish the settler.(in the 23rd turn), then build some vet-units(at least one needed for mp), a granary and the next settler.
    So although i had some reasons to build Barracks i had an ichy feeling about it. what have i missed in my plan ie.what will really hurt me in higher diff?

    again thanks for your work

    Rowain
     
  11. LKendter

    LKendter Chieftain

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    I join the club of not knowing that one.
    Of course with Diety / Emprorer you have to learn every trick to squeeze a little more ;)
     
  12. ChrTh

    ChrTh Mmm...tasty!

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    Wow...I feel better now :)

    :sheep:
     
  13. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

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    4000BC: founded capital on the spot? Solid choice. See my remarks to Rowain and TBC regarding other possible choices.

    You missed the first turn of research by not going to F6 right away. However, once you got going, I love your direction and your thinking. Even scientific civs need the option for early temples, as it's just too painful to wait for Literature before getting any culture going.

    Ceremonial Burial is the cheapest tech on the board (along with Pottery) and one of the most crucial to have available early. A+ on research plan.

    3950BC: Road before mining buys 6 commerce at the cost of 3 shields. (Assuming you do both a road and a mine on a grassland, and a matter of which comes first). Unfortunately, you did not do any mining, you built all roads. The roads are very valuable, but having fully improved Good Tiles at the capital is a more urgent task. The benefit of roads comes later, while the lost production of no mines in operation is costing you now. The roads can wait. If they can wait, they SHOULD wait. You can't afford to have workers leave a tile without building a road, but they should also be mining (or in some cases irrigating) as they go.

    A non-river start, with all dry tiles and no river commerce bonus, the roads may become more urgent. (That's the "some reason" that grassland tile had bonus commerce: all tiles adjacent to river get one bonus trade). Even if no river bonuses were available, I'd still mine first (or irrigate wheat/cattle), for the first few Good Tiles at the capital. Those good tiles are the MOST URGENT thing to do with your first worker, get him going immediately! This holds true for all possible starts. Improve the land first, all else can wait. (And if it can wait... you know the drill).

    Building a warrior first? With expansionist civ, I will always build another scout. Must hurry to grab as many huts as possible, and it also helps to plan dotmaps and settlements if you know more of the land. Nonexpansionist civ, the warrior would be the only option -- this warrior still for use as an explorer, this early in the game. Even on Emperor/Deity, there's time to build one scout before you build the first warrior.

    3800BC: a settler from a hut! Awesome. :) This is the most-wanted event, a free city. This early in the game, it couldn't get any better. You can dramatically improve your growth curve. You did a great job, Zot, on choosing a site for the second city. I had to open your save file to check it out. A+ on location you chose for York.

    3700BC: trading alphabet to the Germans? See my critique for TBC to refer to my thoughts on this.

    3650BC: You opted to start training spearmen. Ironically, the AI does not weigh much, if anything, into the quality of units, only the number, and the number on garrison in the cities especially. Spearmen would better protect against German aggression, but warriors might better DETER the Germans since they can be built more quickly. Two warriors could serve as two military police units better than one spearman. This won't be an issue on Regent, but on Emperor or Deity, unhappiness becomes a problem much sooner.

    The spears are a GOOD choice, the question is the timing. Are they something that can wait? That's debateable. Certainly, as close as the Germans are, an ancient war might be just the ticket, only... the Germans are the absolute worst civ to start next to if you want to go attack. They start with archers and spearmen and are very tough to take on.

    Rather than trade them alphabet, I would probably FOLLOW THEM down the research tree, as researching any techs they already have will drop the cost to us. Also depends on who else is living in the area. On higher difficulty, you can't do much else BUT TO follow the AI's, since they have bonuses. On Regent they do not, so at some point you would hope to pass them and leave them behind. Even if attacking Germany in the ancient age is to be part of the plan, it would help to get more cities going more quickly first, and to that end, the spears can wait.

    3500BC: opting for iron working now, with knowing that Otto is so close, is a decent plan. Another good idea would be to go for the wheel and find the horses. Either way, something military as next research project is a good idea. I would probably NOT have traded away alphabet yet, so I'd be working on Bronze next.


    Overall grade for this round: B

    :goodjob: count: Two. (Research. York location).
    :smoke: count: One. (Workers)


    - Sirian
     
  14. hotrod0823

    hotrod0823 Chieftain

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    I see my own :weed: piling up just on reading the first 2 critiques!

    Anyway some logic on my moves. Isn't a mine this early cause problems with making a settler too soon, b4 the city is size 3? and also doesn't the scout loose a move through the mountains and or jungles to the S, NE and E. That is why I chose to explore with the warrior. Well looking forward to my results soon.

    Hotrod
     
  15. ChrTh

    ChrTh Mmm...tasty!

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    I'm so nervous...I hope I didn't weed too much (I see the issue with trading Alphabet to the Germans...I'm wondering if trading with the Russians is just as bad...what are the Russians again, Expansionist and ?)
     
  16. Harleqin

    Harleqin Hippo Power

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    This thread is a splendid idea: A+ :goodjob:

    Without playing I feel I'm getting better and learning more. Perhaps it will give me the courage I need for attempting Monarch difficulty :)
     
  17. Arathorn

    Arathorn Catan player

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    Put me on that list, too. Of course, on the highest levels, it often doesn't matter what you choose to research, because you end up needing to buy it anyway.

    Definitely worth putting into "the book" of things I should remember, though.

    Arathorn
     
  18. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

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    4000BC: "not going to build here"? Why? What was your thinking? The starting spot is a decent spot. So's the spot you moved to, BUT what is gained over there? You moved from one of the two river bonus grasslands to the other? No gain on that. You actually moved AWAY from a bonus grassland, which is now two to the north and outside the city radius.

    The starting tile has three bonus grassland in range. Moving south to found London keeps three bonus grassland in range, because the one given up by moving is gained by freeing the one we started on. Either of those are good starts. The tile you moved to... loses one of the grassland tiles. Looking at your save file, 15 of the tiles remain the same from the start tile to the one you chose. 5 are changed. You give up a hill for a hill, no gain. You give up a bonus grassland for a jungle, and you give up three forest on base grass tiles, on the river, for three plains.

    And one turn is lost by moving.

    At least you stayed on the river. :) I've seen deity-capable players move off the river and I've smacked them around a little bit with a big fish for doing so. :smoke:

    Still, this move looks to me like it would give up more than it gains. The only "good" locations I saw for the first city were the starting tile and the tile that TBC and I chose, to the South.

    Also, your worker started a road first. Should mine first, but you are building roads all over just like Zot did. That looks exactly like how I played my first Civ3 game: in Civ2 mode, thinking that grass = irrigation. Civ3 can mine grass now, and unless there are food bonus tiles that can give extra food even under the despotism penalty, then mining is the thing to be doing on grass, at least in those crucial early turns.

    3750BC: got the same settler out of the hut as Zot did. :goodjob: Zot's choice for city site seemed a bit stronger to me, though. You can check his shadow save to have a look.

    3700BC: starting the settler too soon. It will be done before the city reaches size 3, even without the mining that should be taking place. You'll realize and then have to swap to something else, or else wait and waste shields. Either way, this is not good. You are forgetting that at size 2, another tile will come into play, and even in the location you chose, there are two bg (bonus grass) tiles to work. Load up your game and play a couple more turns if you need to SEE this to understand what I mean.

    3600BC: Your York location, though maybe not the best, IS a good location. You moved to the fresh water, which is the most important thing. The location also fits well with your chosen capital location.


    Hotrod, in regard to your question about "isn't mining bad because it makes the settler pop out too soon?"

    Answer: NO. :)

    Don't start the settler yet. Use the bonus shields from the mine to crank out a "free" scout, or warrior, or two, and have the settler done at the same time. That extra explorer could pop a hut that would go to an AI under your plan, and who knows what that might bring in. Tech? Settler? Free military? Cash? More knowledge of the land more quickly.

    You're right to want to match the settler completion to the population growth, but NOT by :smoke: slowing production!

    And in your situation in particular, with a free scout from a hut, there's another option on the table. You'll see it when I post my report.


    Overall grade: C-

    :goodjob: count: One. (Research)
    :smoke: count: Three. (First City Location, Workers, Settler too soon)


    - Sirian


    EDIT: One more minor point. You counted the inherited turn toward your ten turns, even though I posted all over that this round ends in 3500BC. No big deal, happens all the time, but still a good idea to stick to the proscribed turn counts or you could get a reputation like Jester has, for miscounting turns.
     
  19. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

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    4000BC: a very solid opening for ChrTh. Only thing he missed was blowing that first turn of research, but then everybody except Hotrod did that, too. (Hotrod kind of blew his first turn of research, too, but in a different way: by moving the capital one tile without gaining anything in the process).

    3950BC: mining the grassland, good show. Only... you are building the road first? That will cost you a turn off the production of your third scout.

    3700BC: Avoiding contact is only a good idea for the Always War variant. Contact is nothing but helpful in a normal game. Your research costs drop on any tech they have that you don't, you get a chance to trade, you get intel on what techs the AI has and how many cities, how much cash they have, etc etc. Nobody ever makes demands THIS early in the game. Avoiding contact = :smoke: Lucky for you, the Russians forced it on you anyway. :p

    As for trading alphabet away to a scientific civ, you've already read my thoughts on that.

    3550BC: popped a settler in the jungle, but you're going to WAIT to build a spearman escort to do anything with him? :smoke: You'll escape the worst prodding of the first round on this one, because the round is over and maybe you'd have not really done that if you had played on. (Right? I hope you wouldn't have).


    Overall grade: B

    :goodjob: count: Three. (Workers, Scouts, Research)
    :smoke: count: Two. (Delaying contact, Delaying settler action).


    - Sirian
     
  20. hotrod0823

    hotrod0823 Chieftain

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    I don't usually play exp. civs, I am more comfortable with religious and scientific civs., love those babs, for the reasons why Sirian chose to be England. But are settlers cheaper in exp. civs? It seemed to be that the settler is finishing faster than I usually see. Is it that or is it the "bonus" grasslands and are making the settler quicker, too quick as I realized after I was already to far into it and you pointed out?

    Anyway thanks

    Hotrod
     

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