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Production % and hammers overview

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by Smikis, Feb 26, 2013.

  1. Smikis

    Smikis Chieftain

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    asking something that isnt in civ4 might be pushing but currently I have -100% sometimes -70% for military units and i just cannot figure out why..
    -20% from scientific trait.. -10 or -20% from religious buildings , where rest comes is a mystery to me, and no there are no -military production from civics

    some sort of overview or filter to view things like this would be awesome, as with 500% more buildings that original civ, checking them is borderline impossible


    just noticed that if i build clockwork gollem it doesnt get minus production every other unit gets

    bit offtopic but any chance you guys ever gona fix/remove bombard city/plots option from gunner elephants, bombard mammoth, warlords and similar units, as those never worked
     
  2. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    The first issue... it'd help to have a savegame with instructions on how to reveal the -100% situation you're talking about. I could follow the numbers and see where the rest is coming from and it would be helpful to figure that out. As for the breakdown, there should be something along those lines (try hovering over the hammer to the left of the build bar in the city screen) but I'd like to see if anything's going unmentioned somehow.

    Perhaps the golem is getting a bonus that counteracts some of the penalties you're experiencing.

    What do you mean by not working? Not accusing that statement of being inaccurate but just a little under descriptive. Bombard is a term used to describe two things really, knocking down defenses and making a distance attack against units and improvements on the targeted plot. And when you say it never works, do you mean it doesn't ever 'hit for damage' or something about the mechanism as a whole is not functioning when the button is pushed?
     
  3. ls612

    ls612 Deity Moderator

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    It works, it just has far too low a probability of going off. I'm not certain if those odds are in teh DLL or an XML file.
     
  4. sp00n

    sp00n Prince

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    I remember there were some units with the archer bombard icon, but they never performed the action. Can't exactly remember which ones though, I think one was a direct upgrade from an Archer.
    Also, this was in v27, and I can't even remember if it has been already fixed since then.
     
  5. ls612

    ls612 Deity Moderator

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    I don't think he was talking about that, I think he was refering to the thing on artillery which allows them to attack adjacent stacks.
     
  6. sp00n

    sp00n Prince

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    Well, archer bombard is exactly that as well. But thinking about it, as he mentioned warlords, those have/had the city bombard option as well, but actually didn't really reduce the city's defense value whenever I tried it. So you're probably right that he wasn't talking about archer bombard.

    There's also another issue where older siege units don't even scratch the city defense, but I assume this is because the defense value is so high/upgraded that they're simply considered outdated. Would be nice though to have some kind of hint that/when a siege weapon can be considered obsolete. Right now I'm just assuming that this is the reason why the defense value doesn't decrease even by 1% if attacked by 15+ units.
    Could be connected to the warlord problem. Or something else entirely.
     
  7. Smikis

    Smikis Chieftain

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    for bombard option, those units supposed to have same function as artillery to lower defence, in fact you cannot bombard them as there is no button whatsoever , i am pretty sure it was always like that and cannot be unknown issue?
    as long as I can remember, bombard elephants/mammoths warlords had " can bombard city/plot -10%" and not in single version there was option available to actually use that skill...

    if its supposed to be automatic its worded wrongly and I never saw it happen..

    btw i dont use archer bombard functions and all that gimmick

    ill attach my savegame if you feel like looking into it, there is overview for hammers but it doesnt show anything about buildings or anything of real value, there are no building overview in it
     

    Attached Files:

  8. JJOne

    JJOne Prince

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    city bombard works with warlords in V28 - in my game.
    About too little to no damage - there are castle upgrades which lower significantly the bombard damage, and in these situations you must bring lots of promoted trebs, or be prepared for a really long siege... For ships, level three of the first available purple promotion (not piratry, the other one) does the trick, but it takes also a long time for getting the defences low enough to attack directly.

    About -% to military units:
    -asatru monasteries have some minus
    -olympic games have -90%
    -festivals, gambling halls, casinos have a general minus to all production
    -the karate buildings (training dojo and such) also have some minus to military production
     
  9. Raven Destroyer

    Raven Destroyer Prince

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    i noticed with atleast ships that got Bombard option but can't hit a fly because they ain't got any stack damage

    Archer bombard always works
    but Siege bombard requires atleast 1% damage to a whole stack (forgot the right term
     
  10. Smikis

    Smikis Chieftain

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    i am not talking about bombard.. seriously thats not even default feature, nor its original civ4 game function, i am talking about simple minus % defence in cities.. you know that one where you have lets say 100% in a city. and you bring catapults to make it zero.. before attacking.. you couldn't have missed it even in first ever civ game

    there is no "damage " in city defence bombardment ..its just plain -10% or what number you pick.. you know that extra button that appears when you place artillery next to city , i feel like repeating my self and people still thinking about optional bug feature thats off by default and not used by most players because as human player i am already op vs ai i dont need feature only i can use..
    as for military production, i still cant figure it out, practically new city yet i have -40% military production i shouldn't have
    -135% should have -95% ( 75% from pacifism, 20% from scientific trait ) checked all buildings, all special buildings, none of them have any minus production to anything
     
  11. God-Emperor

    God-Emperor Deity

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    The city defense bombard rate an attacker gets is modified by various buildings in the city being bombarded like walls and castles. It is also likely that the resulting bombard rate is rounded down.

    Example: the basic stone wall reduces the bombard rate by 20%. High Walls increase it to 40% (they replace the standard Walls building). The Palace Walls (which can be built in the same city - it doesn't replace the regular walls or high walls, but can only be built in the capital) also reduce the bombard rate by 20%. A Guard Tower gives a 10% reduction. The reductions add. There are a number of other such buildings. It is possible that they might be able to add up to 100% or more, especially in the capital, but I think it might be limited to a maximum actual reduction of 90% (although I am not sure).

    The catapult unit has a bombard rate of 8. So if it is attacking a city with High Walls and a Guard Tower this is reduced by 50% down to 4%. If the city also has Palace Walls it is reduced by 70%. That leaves it at .08*.3 = 2.4% which would be rounded down to 2%, I expect. So if the total reduction from all sources is 88% or higher then each catapult will be reduced below 1% and rounded down to nothing. At that point your only hope of reducing the city's defenses is to bring siege units that have a higher reduction rate, either catapults with a promotion that increases the bombard rate or some other type of siege unit entirely.

    The trebuchet is 16% (with no promotions) and a bombard is 10% (and being a gunpowder unit ignores the defenses from buildings - this may or may not ignore the bombard rate reduction from buildings too, I do not know) but these may be past your current techs. The siege tower should not be and it has a bombard rate of 13% and the siege ram is way up at 20%. So these units which some people think are useless because they can not attack are, in fact, quite useful. You should still bring some catapults to attack with after the defenses are down and you want to inflict collateral damage, but before that you use a few siege rams and/or siege towers to reduce the defenses. It may take a while - if the buildings in the city give a 90% reduction then that 20% becomes 2% per bombard from a siege ram.

    Alternatively, use a spy. The mission that throws the city into anarchy for a turn also drops the city defenses to 0 for that turn. The cost of the mission may make it impossible to do very many times, but it should at least help you take one key city if you have been focusing your espionage points on that player. Send 2 spies, or more, if you want to be sure.
     
  12. Smikis

    Smikis Chieftain

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    i said like 5 times its not about how much damage bombard does, its the fact that you cannot do bombard on city defenses or destroy plot improvements because there is no bombard button
    unit that should have bombard option doesnt have function to use it, NOTHING ELSE
     
  13. God-Emperor

    God-Emperor Deity

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    I have not checked, but if it will do 0 damage it might not show the button. Maybe. I know it used to let you waste your time bombarding away when it would not reduce the defenses at all, but that may have been changed at some point. If it was changed, it really ought to show the button "grayed out" rather than not show it, but it might just not show it.

    So is it that way for every enemy city? For every type of siege unit?
     
  14. Smikis

    Smikis Chieftain

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    seriously how can " strongest " unit deal no damage to city walls , its always -10% or whatever multiplier you add or reduce to it, pretty sure its always the same now, before it was bugged you would do something of 2% instead of 10, but now defence stacks over 300+ and not old 100~ its always same

    units such as elephant gunners, warlords and i am sure few other have in description able to bombard city defences (-10%) and destroy plot improvements ( same as artillery ) but as long as I remember there was no button to use it
    I do wonder if you guys even play this game

    its practically core units in time period everyone reaches , yet I feel like explaining simple fact that should been known to everyone for 20th time and people still come and talk about no damage to units or ranged bombardment or artillery units in general
    my rambling might be in horrible English at times but still comprehensible so at least read it before you post anything, or you know start the game and look up the units
    anyway this will never get fixed, modders dont play the game and those that play, well not even sure what to say there
     
  15. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Much as I detest the words spoken to attempt to motivate the mod team to do as you wish, I do feel this warranted looking into.

    A check on the Bombard Elephant shows that while it has an established iBombRate, it should instead be a iBombardRate. In the coding, it is revealed that iBombRate is an aspect for Air units while iBombardRate is the actual ability we're looking for here. I suspect the rest of the units that have this issue share the same diagnosis. I didn't go further to verify it but I'd suspect that the display on the unit would read much the same with either tag, leading to a bit of potential confusion both for the mod team and for the players.

    So what I'll do is put it on my list to search all unit files and take a look at any uses of the iBombRate and switch them over to iBombardRate where we aren't placing this indication on an Air unit. That should make for a successful fix.

    But in the future, Smikis, please understand we are reading and considering what's being said. No, we don't have as much time to play as we'd like, and yes, the bug report is appreciated. But throwing around accusations that nobody here cares is not appreciated - at all!
     
  16. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    Clarification: Types of bombardment

    Bombard city defenses is what siege units do, any other unit with this ability should be using the same button.

    Ranged bombardment is what is used against units, it has the same button art but the text is different. Units with both have two buttons showing.

    I a bit unclear here but if I remember correctly Ranged bombardment is what is also used bombard plots to destroy improvements.​

    You are saying that in the description for some units they have these abilities listed but they are not actually having it in game.

    OOps Tbrd has identified some thing that may be a issue - iBombRate vrs. iBombardRate.
     

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