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Progress / Authority Happiness Policies

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by tothePAIN, Jun 2, 2020.

  1. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    Both Progress and Authority have happiness policies that are related to city population. For Progress, its 1 happiness per 10 citizens in the city. For Authority, they get 1 happiness if there is a garrison in the city but Authority also has a policy to give a free, supply-free, unit that is used as the garrison for happiness.

    With the current state of population growth, the 10 population requirement feels a litle high. I think it was 8 previously at one point? Thoughts?
     
  2. Necamijat

    Necamijat Warlord

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    I recall 8 being the number in question as well. I had suggested maybe giving out a flat 1 Happiness per city in that policy (and keeping the 1 per 10 pop), but I can agree with maybe lowering the requirement down to 8 if concerns would be raised of over-inflating the Happiness amounts. Maybe Progress could get more Happiness from Luxury resources, advocating for the peaceful benefits of trade and city-state allies?

    Also, do note that supply-free units are also coming at 10 population, so they use the same requirement in that regard.

    Tradition has a more fixed Happiness income (1 per National Wonder, 11 up to Renaissance, plus 2 from the opener), Authority basically gets a flat 1 per city. Progress can theoretically outpace both given sufficient Population.

    I'm not sure how noteworthy the needs reduction is in that Progress policy as well. Does it shave off an Unhappiness point ever?
     
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  3. Drakle

    Drakle Prince

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    Well in my latest game, I picked the happiness policy when I was playing wide and had about 30 something unhappiness and 40 something happiness. I lost 1 net unhappiness from needs reductions. So not particularly noticeable impactful. I'm sure some unhappiness maybe got shifted downs, like say Distress to Poverty. But not really a immediate game changer if quite unhappy.
     
  4. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    So I'm playing a progress game right now. I'm going to reiterate the point that Progress' happiness policy feels like its difficult to get going. On turn 137, I've got 6 founded cities. One has 10 population, 2 have 8 population, and 3 have 7 population. So I'm not really benefiting from the happiness policy until I have 10 population, which just feels bad. I think I did get 3 happiness reduction from the needs reduction, but my empire is still at 46% happiness and I'll need to grow my cities by 13 population to use the progress happiness policy.
     
  5. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    So... I'm still trying to play Progress but the early game with happiness just feels bad, particularly when I have no cities at 10 population when reaching the 6th, happiness policy. I've got 6 cities and one puppet as Inca. City population is 9/7/6/5/4/4 and then 8 in my puppet city (enemy capital). I don't get any actual happiness faces until I reach 10 population. I also didn't get any happiness needs reduction upon adopting the happiness policy.

    Given the changes to growth, can we reduce this a little bit? Or make it 8 and 18? Something? Or is it only me with this. All told, I'm going to need my cities to grow for another 25 population before I'll get as much happiness as authority does. As @Cokolwiek pointed out, its actually easier to go way wide as Authority early, because of the better access to a happiness policy.

    @Gazebo ?
     
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  6. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    Following up on this - the AIs have declared war, so I've lost access to other luxuries and have war weariness. I've got 6 luxuries myself, but now I'm really struggling with happiness. I'm having to rush circuses to try to stay afloat with happiness. Same situation with cities.

    Progress right now feels like a trap in the early game, with happiness being very difficult. Its almost like you have to play small and peaceful until cities reach 10 population.

    Yes, right now, war weariness, is really hurting, but I don't really have a margin to go on a lengthy war due to the happiness situation.

    Progress Happiness.png
     
  7. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    My counter, as I'm playing a Progress Germany right now with 8 cities in the early game, and my happiness has been just fine, almost easy. So before we say its Progress' fault, we probably need to investigate a bit more. There are many many factors that effect happiness.

    Since you are in rebellion I do recommend stopping growth and building the circuses you mentioned. It will be interesting to see where your at in about 10 turns and whether you can stabilize.
     
  8. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

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    I think city management is more important in progress. I tend to lock production tiles and shy from tiles that give mostly food (less emphasis on food triangles). Allowing the city manager to make your decisions seems to lead to unhappiness problems in wide/progress. I don't think it's even enough to use production focus as the city manager sometimes makes questionable decisions even then.

    Having said that, Progress's happiness policy could stand to be stronger IMO. Making it more impactful could help separate progress from authority in terms of better supporting wide play.
     
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  9. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    I stopped the war with Songhai to end the war weariness. The challenge though, is that if I stop growth, I won't get to 10 population in each city, where I get another happiness. I plan to stop growth at 10 population, but the Progress happiness policy doesn't do ANYTHING for each city until then. Progress' happiness may be easier at lower levels where the world wide median is lower. My tiles are mostly production heavy tiles, since I have terrace farms, so a production focus isn't really the issue. I've only got one farm triangle in my whole empire.

    My main problem with progress' happiness policy right now is that there's a hard cliff at 10 population before which the happiness policy offers very little benefit. End stop. If I'm playing tradition or Authority, I can get access to happiness from my policies before having cities that have 10 population. If I'm Progress, I can't, and further, because I don't have happiness, I can't grow to get the 10 population and get the happiness.

    I can deal with it, if necessary. I've played enough of this game to do so. But its definitely a trap. The only way that I could deal with it right now would be... statecraft and mercantile cities for happiness? But if I don't have access to that, I have no more access to raw happiness sources.

    I'd really like to see for Progress is the happiness policy become more accessible, instead of being gated behind 10 population, which is fairly hard to get to these days.

    Is there a reason that Progress' happiness policy couldn't be at 5 / 15 and (25, 35, 45, 55, etc.)?

    @Stalker0 I'm assuming that you're playing on Emperor or Immortal difficulty? Statecraft, got some mercantile CS?
     
  10. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    So the first statement is untrue. It also lowers all the core unhappy thresholds by 10%. That may not sound like much, but it does translate into happiness regardless of your population.

    To your question, Emperor Difficulty, 1 mercantile CS.
     
  11. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    I'm sorry, you're right, my statement was technically incorrect.

    But in the game I was playing, lowering all the core unhappy thresholds by 10% did... nothing. So no, it doesn't translate into happiness regardless of my population. Neither happiness nor unhappiness changed at all.

    Progress' happiness policy is meant to be good for wide, but it actually makes it harder to go wide early. I don't think this was intended, but growth has been made more difficult so now its harder to use the happiness policy.

    In your most recent Progress game with Germany, where you shared your screen shot, I think you had... one city at 20+ population? It would be nice for the progress happiness policy to supply more happiness than tradition or authority by 267 turns into the game.

    This is one of the areas where the balance for humans vs AI will be different, due to the AI having growth bonuses.
     
  12. Gizmoman

    Gizmoman Chieftain

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    Progress is weird, for some reason it feels like you're severely crippling yourself in terms of happiness. On the other hand I don't know if that is necessarily true, it's just that every time I play progress my happiness is way more of an issue than if I'm playing tradition or authority.
     
  13. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    My point here is that Progress' happiness policy only triggers once a city has 10 population. It doesn't give fractional happiness. So if you have 6 cities and 50 population but you're below 10 population in each city, no happiness from Progress. Maybe needs reduction, but no happiness.
     
  14. Necamijat

    Necamijat Warlord

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    Making it fractional and/or global Happiness, does sound compelling. I'm still thinking more luxury happiness on Progress could be a decent idea, and it allows Progress to gain a slight benefit from warring to secure additional luxuries (as opposed to more or less peace-oriented Tradition and war-oriented Honor).
     
  15. Cokolwiek

    Cokolwiek Prince

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    I would just like to point out that authority's faster happiness does NOT come from its happiness policy. I never have an opportunity to allow my units to stay in the cities, military unit cap early game is so low and production scarce, that they all need to be deployed on the field engaging enemy to achieve something. It comes from flat hammers and hence faster development of the cities, hence better yields, hence less unhappiness.
    And progress needs a buff while authority deserves a nerf anyway. Progress is just the worse policy in many aspects for the early game. And the early game sets up the whole game.
     
  16. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    This might be your playstyle but it's possible to use Authority's happiness policy in the early game. You can choose to build archers near the end of the ancient era and station them in cities to get the happiness, or build them before composites come on line, when archers are cheap. The authority happiness policy is accessible early (and outpaces both tradition and progress in terms of raw access to happiness at that point.)
     
  17. Cokolwiek

    Cokolwiek Prince

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    Yeah, maybe just my playstyle, but I think getting authority kinda like synergizes with an early conquest and being at war generally ;) Otherwise it is better to take progress in the long term. I don't see how is it early. The most efficient way is to take it as the fifth one in any situation, if you are running into happiness problems before that, there's something wrong with city placement/management or not taking enough trade deals. I think progress happiness policy is much too late, than authority's too early. I can get garrison in most of my cities by the time they spawn an outdated unit which is exactly at ten population.
     
  18. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    I actually followed your advice about founding and going wide as authority with Mongolia to hold off on warring instantly and to get the archers. So I've got 7 cities in a Mongolia game and founded with Hero Worship, and to make the happiness work, I have archers in each city. Otherwise, yep, its war time.
     
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  19. Cokolwiek

    Cokolwiek Prince

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    What advice? I would like to follow it myself if it works, haha. But I wrote so much recently I completely don't remember.
     
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  20. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    In the thread about pantheons and founding on deity. You mentioned that you go authority and found a city or 2 before the 3rd policy and are still able to found sometimes, so I decided to give it a shot.
     
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