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Progress / Authority Happiness Policies

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by tothePAIN, Jun 2, 2020.

  1. Cokolwiek

    Cokolwiek Prince

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    Oh, yes. Generally before last few patches I was delaying pottery, sometimes substantially. Now AI behavior and need for faster development and faster pantheons force me to take it as the second or the third tech every time, no matter tall or wide.
     
  2. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    So... I'd still like to make Progress' happiness policy easier to access. It's pretty rare to get cities to 20 population and get 2 happiness from the policy. In some situations, getting to 10 population is hard because the empire is unhappy, which means the empire won't grow...

    Here's a screenshot from a game where I went 7 city progress. I'm probably going to abandon the game because the happiness is leading to rebellions. Deity / Continents / Communitas - Denmark with God of the Sea. (Yes, it leads to growth - but I need growth to get to 10 population.)

    I think my misplay was settling the 5th, 6th, and 7th cities. Otherwise, I could have dealt with happiness. But it would have let the AI take that land.

    Can we make it so that Progress gets happiness for libraries and public schools? Something other than a straight population requirement for happiness?

    @SuperNoobCamper had this problem in another game.

    Spoiler Game Situation :
    Denmark 7 City Progress.png
     
    Rhys DeAnno likes this.
  3. andersw

    andersw King

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    I havent played in the most recent patch because of CTD but the on the april/may version I had no trouble with authority happiness on emperor.
    The few times I've tried progress it felt weak, probably needs a buff but not sure where/how.
     
  4. Pill

    Pill Chieftain

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    I would also echo people's sentiment that Progress' happiness policy needs an earlier boost.
    I like going wide progress (~10 cities) on Emperor and I feel like I always hit a wall with happiness where all my cities are stuck at 5-7 pop for the longest time, and letting them grow would be happiness suicide, so I'm nowhere near that 10 population for the happiness bonus until probably late Renaissance. The only exception I've found to this has been Indonesia with plenty of UA happiness and luxuries from trading.
    It just feels bad choosing a policy that doesn't kick in until you're on you're 3rd policy tree.
     
  5. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I do think the idea of shifting the +1 happy to libraries is a decent idea, and its also thematic (progress and science going hand in hand, a library bonus makes sense). I don't think the bonus needs to scale stronger (honestly if it was just the +1 happy at library + the needs reduction I think that would be fine, it doesn't need to keep scaling), but ensuring a "definitive" bonus seems reasonable.
     
  6. CppMaster

    CppMaster Emperor

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    I like the idea of +1 empire happiness per 10 population in empire instead of -1 unhappiness per 10 citizens in a city. It'd be much easier to reach thresholds.
     
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  7. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    Part of Progress being the *wide* tree is it theoretically having the best scaling happiness. Right now though, it needs to be shifted to something more definite.

    I’m not wedded to the happiness at libraries idea but it needs something definitive so that it’s not a trap.

    Tradition gets ~ 11 happiness through Renaissance through renaissance. Authority gets 1 happiness per city and 2 culture, with a garrison requirement.

    Progress is getting very weak happiness currently.

    @Gazebo Thoughts? I think this is a situation where AI bonuses cover up weaknesses in the policy tree.
     
    Cokolwiek likes this.
  8. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I want to bump this thread for the idea below. Progress has pathetic early game happiness.
    In a recent game when I got my sixth social policy my biggest city had only 6 population. I didn't have a 10 pop city until turn 112.
    The 10% reduction is hard to quantify, but in general during the early game it usually doesn't matter.

    It hurts because one advantage progress should have over authority is the 3 food per city, but even while locking foodless tiles and getting a happiness CS ally, I grew too much for happiness.
     
  9. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    The kicker is.... you grow too much for happiness but not enough to trigger the happiness policy... at least on the higher difficulties.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2020
    vyyt, ElliotS, crdvis16 and 1 other person like this.
  10. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

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    Making it based on total pop makes it more intuitive as well. Having a bunch of 9 pop cities and not seeing your happiness improve could be confusing to someone not paying close attention. The policy basically says "pick this if you're having happiness problems" but there are lots of situations where it just won't actually improve your happiness currently.
     
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  11. ICanHasName?

    ICanHasName? Warlord

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    It's ok for progress to be strong in the long term and not the short term, but I agree 10 pop in a city leads to weird thresholds and issues.
     
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  12. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

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    Maybe change it so that it provides bonus happiness from luxuries as well? Just +1 from each would go a long way to support your core cities til they hit 10.
     
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  13. Drakle

    Drakle Prince

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    Bump for this topic.

    Playing Progress Babylon, and I just hit an absolute wall of unhappiness in the late classic. Partly the fault of the map, with fewer luxuries nearby than normal, and ones with later tech unlocks. And partly the fault of the AI who didn't have any luxuries to trade. But I did also have 4 city-state allies, and somewhat fairly up to date buildings. Still dipping in and out of revolutionary (-20 unhappiness), which is drastic, when my happiness was only in the mid-20s. And grabbing the Progress happiness policy barely made a dent.
     
  14. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    @Drakle

    Would you mind providing a screenshot and information about difficulty? Had any of your cities reached 10 population? Number of cities?
     
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  15. ICanHasName?

    ICanHasName? Warlord

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    On diety I suspect most cities have their unhappiness capped by population. A city might have 7 population and would have 12 unhappiness if it could. The 15% reduction takes it down to 10 unhappiness, but its still capped at 7.

    In my current game it looks like my capitol is the only city that would actually gain anything from either part of that policy. But again, I am in medieval. An age or two later I suspect that would be a very solid benefit because my cities should be catching up with distress and poverty unhappies.

    So again, potentially very strong late game but oddly doesnt do what you think it should early game.
     
  16. cerk

    cerk Chieftain

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    Any mercantile CS?

    I was lucky in my game, getting salt to start with. But happiness seemed fine to me for most of the game. I had an intermittent alliance 1 mercantile CS (Antwerp) giving me 2 happiness per turn. My worst was some 40%. In the screenshot below, I must have around 6+ luxes? But then all emperor AIs except Brazil showed a poor performance this game, so maybe I was going against lower global medians.

    Spoiler Here are all my cities in Classical era :

    Sid Meier's Civilization V (DX11) 7_11_2020 2_19_45 AM.png
     
  17. Drakle

    Drakle Prince

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    No. None in my region of the world.

    7 cities. When I posted the comment, only the capital had hit 10. Since then, all but two has hit that mark, in the medieval era. No longer dipping into revolutionary, but still unhappy. The only city consistently growing, is my capital, because of Apostolic Tradition (late too founding, so slim pickings for founder and followers).

    I'm closing the gap, and once I build Fealty Castles in all cities I'm might get to parity. Just sucks to be stuck in so much unhappiness, while barely going wide.

    Between this, and the settler issues, I'm getting really discouraged from playing Progress. Babylon really suffered, trying to settle enough to keep Denmark, America or Austria butting in too close. But if I don't early game settle, then I won't be able to peacefully settle cities nearby latter.

    And Babylon despite it science focus doesn't feel like it is taking off. Austria is easily keeping a few techs ahead, despite nearly all my cities working at least one scientist specialist, Babylon working 3, and planting three academies around Babylon, along with faith purchasing monasteries and universities. Plus there are two unknown civs doing even better.
     
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  18. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    This is similar to my experience playing Progress right now. I agree that Fealty is the usually best after Progress because the happiness policy is critical. (Statecraft also can work because of happiness from city states, particularly mercantile.)
     
  19. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    I'd support this
    +1 happiness to councils and libraries.
    -33% to empire size happiness penalty.

    The happiness on buildings fits the theme and it's an immediate boost. Encourages building the right buildings for progress.
    The reduction of the empire size penalty gives room for settling +50% cities, something that can impact the early game if taken soon. (Settling more cities earlier have a big impact).
     
  20. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I like this idea.

    I don't see the logic here.
     
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