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Progress / Authority Happiness Policies

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by tothePAIN, Jun 2, 2020.

  1. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN Prince

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    I think the logic is about making the happiness policy more accessible - not linked to population. Progress is supposed to be a bit science focused, this council's and libraries.

    Councils and libraries though are too early. That would be a huge happiness boost. If it was libraries and public schools, that might work.

    If we're going to keep the policy linked to population, the population requirement needs to go down. Or we could make the happiness linked to a building.
     
    vyyt and CrazyG like this.
  2. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    This makes sense, thanks for the answer.

    I agree about councils, I don't like the happy there. Libraries is better. They are already such a big deal for happiness though, -1 illiteracy, sometimes -2, and free urbanization.

    I think if it's linked to population, I think 10 would be okay if it was just 10 empire wide, instead of 10 per city.
     
  3. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    I don't remember who said this, but it's worth thinking. Being unhappy means growing slowly, which in turn makes the happiness per population hard to achieve. In other words, you are forced to grow your cities a little bit before settling next one, which is counterintuitive for progress.

    I included councils because I fear that the net happiness it would yield will not compare favourably to the science on connecting cities. The extra food and science from that policy usually gives some happiness just for the better yields. So the policy which is intended to allow further expansion should give more happiness.
    But you are better than me at fine grain numbers, so probably libraries and public schools would do, although public schools come very late in my opinion for a classical policy. That could fool players into thinking that this policy is still better taken the last one. Other buildings yielding science are barracks, herbalists and forges. Forges are nice too.
     
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  4. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    in some ways that would be worse, as you wouldn’t get any local happiness with that model.

    I have grown onto the +1 happy for libraries, I do think the next building should be public school to represent the later game happy scaling the policy is supposed to reflect
     
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  5. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I hadn't considered this. You are right, global happiness tends to be really inefficient. It would get shuffled mostly the capital, which is usually the least important city to get happiness in.
     
  6. Rhys DeAnno

    Rhys DeAnno Prince

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    I think if you're doing the happiness on buildings put it on markets. Progress already has a gold theme, and markets are kind of a mediocre building of themselves right now due to all the other sources of gold. You could also expand on this by putting another happy on Customs Houses or Caravansaries, neither of which are very impressive buildings themselves.

    I think Libraries are already the best Classical building (especially for happiness) and need no other help. Councils on the other hand are a little too easy and automatic to get everywhere for such a large bonus as a whole happy, and also are kind of functionally the front 1/3rd of a library already.
     
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  7. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    It just shows how different we all are in what we value. I am actually the opposite. Markets to me are one of the best early buildings. Its the fastest to get specialists, +3 gold is basically a happy at that point in the game, and gold gives me the ability to speed up my infrastructure, whereas more science means I now have more things I don't yet have the hammers to build. Also, councils feel very mediocre to me, I feel its almost a gateway to get to libraries.

    Don't get me wrong libraries are a great building. And I think either markets or libraries are fine for the happy, both are decently thematic, both come early enough to make a difference, both are buildings I want to build so I don't think it would fundamentally change any build orders.

    I do think putting it on councils is too early, and Tradition already has a synergy with them.
     
  8. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    I build councils when I don't have the money to maintain a better building. It's also easy yields after the progress policy that boosts building.

    Anyways, there's a combo which is very loved by wide style in the arena+barracks+forge. Any of these buildings might come at the right time for the happiness policy. But if I were into the progress religion, I'd adore it better the forge as it captures the essence of the tinker, the ground for the mechanical inventions.
    The forge is already a great building, especially when mines abound, and when watermills are not an option. It fits the theme, as progress is both science and production.
     
  9. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN Prince

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    What about +1 happiness on forges and windmills?
     
  10. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Mmm, I always thought windmills are Tradition buildings, but why not.
     
  11. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I think the library is a pretty good choice if the happiness gets attached to a building. Progress is a generalist tree with flexibility that should have options. Everyone gets libraries. Forges and windmills are somewhat niche buildings, I haven't always researched the forge early.

    It's good from a new player perspective. Like a small tutorial about when to take the policy (late), and in general libraries are a very important happiness building.

    For a second point of happiness, IDK. Universities have a ton of social policies bonuses already, and public schools are so far away.
     
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  12. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    If we consider how long it often takes satellites to get to 20 pop, I don't think its that far out there. And honestly, even if the policy was just +1 happy from libraries, with no further scaling, its probably still better than what exists now because it has bigger punch in the early game. So another boost much later I think is fine
     
  13. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

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    I just don't like mid-late game buildings being on the description of an early game policy tree. The global happiness suggestion doesn't sound too bad - happiness isn't distributed to cities with maxed local happiness, so it won't be "wasted" on the capital.

    And it's definitely better than the current version.
     
  14. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    What if it was +1 happy in cities with 5 citizens, and 1 more happy in cities with 15 population. Those numbers are a lot more reachable than 10 and 20 pop.

    It loses the potential 30 or 40 pop bonuses but I think that's fine.
     
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  15. CppMaster

    CppMaster Emperor

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    Or even simpler: +1 happiness per city
     
  16. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Yes, it's simpler, but even authority must park their garrisons in order to enjoy this bonus. Anyways, it looks neat:
    +1 happiness per city and -33% to empire size happiness penalty.
     
  17. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I guess, I think it all leads to basically the same thing
     
  18. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN Prince

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    I think that ends up being a nerf on lower difficulties, where Progress currently can afford early game difficulties in a tradeoff for the late game happiness.
     
  19. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    In terms of the -33% empire size penalty ... I would only support it if we were convinced the policy needs a "boost" or simply more consistency.

    I think the general thought is that: The policy is intended to provide a +1 happy to all cities "pretty much when you take it", and another +1 happiness "fairly late", with some general reduction of unhappiness throughout the game. Switching the happiness to a building doesn't change that it just makes it more consistent and more driven by player direct action.

    If people thinks that bonus is worthy of a policy than I feel the job is done, no more change to do.

    If that is still not worthy enough for a policy, than we could explore more exotic options like the empire size happiness penalty.
     
  20. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I don't know if buildings deliver that 1 happiness per city that cleanly. There are situations I don't have libraries everywhere as of my 6th policy.

    Progress is meant to be flexible, I don't like linking one of its bonuses to public schools or windmills (what if I'm rushing Eiffel Tower or a military unit?)
     

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