Project - City-States Trait / Behaviour System Rework

[Hinin]

Hello everyone,

With the soon to be released tweaks for Pledges to Protect by @Recursive, which will make CState gameplay a bit more interesting since it will make some PtP accessible for players, I decided to talk about one idea I had in mind for quite a while, which is a rework of the trait / behaviour system for CStates in VP.

What is the current situation ?

Currently, as you know, there are five traits for CS (Maritime, Merchantile, Militaristic, Religious, Cultural) and four types of behaviour (Friendly, Neutral, Hostile, Irrational). These traits and behaviour can influence their quests, their vulnerability to tribute, the reward they offer to their friends / ally (yields, resources or units) and the type of resource present in their territory (Luxury resource under Merchantile CS).

What is my problem with it ?

I've found throughout the years that, despite the interactivity Vox Populi added to CS diplomacy (essentially through the (3) CSD part of the mod), something is still lacking :

• Whatever their type, the CStates won't be much different when it comes to military matters : they will often stay in their territory and not do much except when directly attacked (and their military often don't really stand a chance).
  
• Some CS traits feel more unique than others. The Militaristic and Merchantiles CStates offers a lot of interesting things (Strategic Resources and UUs for Milit., unique Luxury resources for Merch.) while the three others are only about yields (food, faith and culture). The case of Religious CStates is particularly telling I think : they are important in the early game because they can help you found a religion, but afterwards their importance falls dramatically.
• Except in matters of Influence decay and Quests, the CS behaviour types don't really influence how you interact with them. Come a point in the game when you can simply ignore these elements completely.

All in all, I've found that, if CSD added more ways for player -> CS interaction, Vox Populi is still lacking in CS -> player interactions and in uniqueness in term of what trait / behaviour combinations can offer.

What about the Unique City-States mod by @Enginseer ?

I've played with the Unique City-States mod by Enginseer some years ago, but I never truly stuck to it, for three reasons :

• It only brings additionnal benefits to being ally with these CStates, and nothing to other interactions.
• The powers in general had a tendency to be too balance-shifting.
  
• Its only change aside from these bonus for allies was a modification of thresholds and a diminution of general CS direct yields bonuses.

I have nothing against this mod to be honest (I like mods that offer variety, and it is clearly a labor of love), and would even make so that this project would become compatible with it. It's just that it wasn't for me.

Goals / Obstacles

So, what would be the goals of this project ?

• Increase the power and interactivity of CStates, not simply as allies, but as local powers.
• Make traits and behaviour types matter more in defining what we can expect from a CState in term of behaviour and effect on the game.
• Give each CState something different that makes each type of interaction (alliance / friendship / protection / tribute / conquest) interesting.

The main obstacle for this project is the type of files we want to modify. Depending on what we can do, the scope of the mod can vary a lot. There are three domains that can be used :

• Unit behaviour (to make CStates interact more with the players, especially during wars) => This is totally out of my competence, but some people can do it I know.
  
• Diplomacy files (PtP threshold, Influence decay, quests etc) => It's more a matter of finding the right lines of code withing existing mods and see how to relate that to CS behaviour types.
  
• Dummy buildings (to give CStates some unique bonuses to help them matter) => not that difficult, but once again I must find a way to assign these dummy buildings to specific trait / behaviour combinations
• Make CStates more interesting targets for TRoutes in general (currently, they are most often a poor man's choice).

Another element that could be used is World Congress tenets. However, since Recursive already opened a thread on that matter, I will wait to see how things change on that front in base VP before making plans on my own.

About the "Irrational" City-State behaviour

I consider "Irrational" City-States to be a direct product of the current system and its flaws : other behaviours are so alike that there is a need to create a "random" behaviour to add some spice. It doesn't make much sense historically (only misunderstandings or major cultural divergences could make one's behaviour appear as "irrational", and qualifying an entire city this way is, I think, ignorance at best) and would be removed with this mod, since there would be no need for such kind of behaviour to make other types feel more unique.

In practice

(disclaimer : all that isn't mentionned doesn't change compared to base VP + all of these are concepts, meant to evolve to better fit the objectives of the project)

• Each CState would have one type of territorial landmark depending on their trait. This is meant as a way to even the fields for warmongers, who currently only gain something more from conquering Merchantile City-States. These would be either GPTIs or GWorks.
• Each type of CS behaviour would have effects on trespassing, quests, number of Units, AI behaviour (if possible) and the type of bonus the trait / behaviour association would provide.
• Each trait / behaviour combination would give a special bonus to the CState, at the crossing of the characteristics associated with both.

Spoiler Table of combinations :

Spoiler CS Behaviour types :

• Friendly : No Influence loss from trespassing. Focuses on general bonuses and helping its friends. Quests focused on positive interactions with the City-State (Trade Routes, conversion, diplomatic missions, city connection etc). Lesser probability of War with other City-States. Easier PtP, but less reward from it. Won't declare War on the side of its Ally.
  
• Neutral : Normal Influence loss from trespassing. Focuses on helping its ally (similarly to what the Unique City-States mod does). Variety of Quests.
  
• Hostile : Increased Influence loss from trespassing. Has more City Combat Strength compared to other CStates and focuses on self-reliance. Quests focused on harming their neighbours. Increased probability of war with other City-States. Harder PtP, but more reward from it.

Spoiler Trait / Behaviour Combinations :

Spoiler Maritime :

General Trait : Ship Builder - Has a Manufactory in its territory. Gains Unit Supply, and a production bonus toward Naval Units, scaling with era.

• Maritime / Friendly = Fishmongering - Increased Food bonus and reduce Distress modifier to its Friends.
  
• Maritime / Neutral = Tug Fleet - +50 % Cargo Ship and Fishing Boats Production and 10 healing whatever the action within the CState territory for its Ally.
  
• Maritime / Hostile = Pirate Haven - Can pillage TRoutes no directed towards it (except for its ally's). Drastically increased Vision and increased Movement for its Naval Units.

Spoiler Merchantile :

General Trait : Trade Center - Has a Town in its territory (+ still has a unique Luxury resource under the City). Provides additionnal Gold to TRoutes sent to it, scaling with era.

• Merchantile / Friendly = Golden City - Gives Gold to Friendly TRoutes as if they were Allied.
  
• Merchantile / Neutral = Shadow Council - Offer true vision of all rival Capitals to its Ally.
  
• Merchantile / Hostile = Free City - Has 1 more Luxury and Strategic Resource in its territory.

Spoiler Militaristic :

General Trait : Fortress - Has a Citadel and a Strategic Resource in its territory. Increased Unit Cap, scaling with era. Can train its unique unit. No more Tribute resistance (the added units compensate).

• Militaristic / Friendly = Mercenary Hub - Offers Units to its Friends at an increased rate.
  
• Militaristic / Neutral = Sellsword Army - +30 xp to its Units. Offers Units to its ally at an increased rate.
  
• Militaristic / Hostile = Hermit Dragon - Even higher Unit cap increase. Unit Production increased.

Spoiler Religious :

General Trait : Center of Faith - Has a Holy Site in its territory. Emits increased pressure for the dominant Religion within it. Has a Border Growth Malus.

• Religious / Friendly = Open Mind - Lowered resistance to conversion. Bonus Faith for its Friends.
  
• Religious / Neutral = Mendicant Orders - Spawn at a regular rate weak missionaries from the faith of its Ally and reduces its Faith costs a bit (-10 %).
  
• Religious / Hostile = One Truth - Drastically increased resistance to conversion, but religious pressure increased even more.

Spoiler Cultural :

General Trait : Center of Learning - Has building with 2 GWorks (one GWArt and one Artifact). Provide additionnal Culture and Science to TRoutes sent to it, scaling with era. Has a Border Growth malus.

• Cultural / Friendly = Open University - Gives Science and Culture to Friendly trade routes as if they are Allies.
  
• Cultural / Neutral = Patronage - If Allied, Trade Routes to city grant +15%Great Person Rate to the Trade route's Origin city.
  
• Cultural / Hostile = Recluse Court - Has an additionnal GWMusic and no Border Growth Malus. +100% Science and Culture to Trade Routes from its Ally.

About CStates AI changes

If it is possible, I think some specific trait / behaviour associations would fare better with some AI changes. For example :

• Make Naval Units from Pirate Havens actively look for TRoutes to plunder in a radius around the CS. That would make them a tangible problem when you're not allied to them.
  
• Make units from Dragon Hermit play defensive when at war, to better fit with their characteristics.

So, I'm finished for now. I made this thread as a way to raise awareness about this project, and I'm of course open to any discussion on the matter. Obviously, this won't be done in a day, but I hope to be able to begin in the next months.

As always, thank you for reading.

 

[pineappledan]

I agree that the Unique CS can get too overwhelming for the balance. I like the idea of giving just a little more edge to Maritime/Religious/Cultural CS.

I don't understand what giving each CS a GPTile does except give major civs a high value tile to try to culture-bomb off the CS? Help me to understand that one.

Cultural / Friendly = Open University - Science bonus to TRoutes increased even more, but no bonus Culture / Science from TRoutes for its ally.

Reminder that allies are currently the only CS relationship level that gives to TRs. So I think that Open university needs to be rephrased to something like:

Open University - Gives Science and Culture to Friendly trade routes as if they are allies.​

Militaristic / Neutral = Sellsword Army - +30 xp to its Units. Increased unit offering to its ally.

I would reduce this to 15. Siam gets a bonus 10, so this seems extreme.

General Trait : Center of Learning - Has buildings with one of each GWork type. Provide additional Culture and Science to TRoutes sent to it, scaling with era.

I don't understand what giving GWorks to a city-state would do, other than increase their CPT and make their borders expand really fast at the beginning of the game, which would be really frustrating for players to spawn next to.

Militaristic / Hostile = Hermit Dragon - Will have even more Land Units.

a CS can only build more units up to it's cap, but they could be killed/lost. Hermit dragon with a higher supply cap would mean it can absorb more CS unit gifts.

So why not make it so Hermit Dragon has much higher unit supply, and gives double influence for unit gifts to them?

Merchantile / Neutral = Shadow Council - Offers an experienced spy to its ally

This seems really powerful relative to the other CS bonuses. It also unlocks in renaissance (unless it doesn't, in which case its WAY too good).

Let me think on this one. Maybe it could give 1 tile vision of other major civ's capitals that you have met?

Maritime / Neutral = Tug Fleet - +50 % Cargo Ship Production and Fishing Boats production, +50 % maritime TR range and 10 healing whatever the action within the CState territory for its ally.

Is this the CS itself has the +50% production, or their major civ ally? I think the TR range would hurt you as much as it helps (excess range lowers gold value of TRs).
I like the increased healing for allies in their territory; I think that and the cargo/work boat production could probably be standalone.

 

[Hinin]

I don't understand what giving each CS a GPTile does except give major civs a high value tile to try to culture-bomb off the CS? Help me to understand that one.

The idea is an answer to two problems :

• Currently, for warmongers there is only one type of CS worth more than the other on principle : the Merchantile ones because of their unique Luxury Resource (placed under the City)
• Boosting a variety of other interactions for CStates but not the most basic of them, pure conquest, seems a bit unfair

As for the position of the GPTI itself, I think adjacent to the CState is the best solution. It limits the risk of a theft by culture-bombing at least.

Open University - Gives Science and Culture to Friendly trade routes as if they are allies.

Yeah, that's better.

I would reduce this to 15. Siam gets a bonus 10, so this seems extreme.

It would only be for the units used by the CState itself, not the one they give you. This way, it has a stronger army that can be of use during wars (contrary to Dragon Hermit CS that are mostly defensive).

I don't understand what giving GWorks to a city-state would do, other than increase their CPT and make their borders expand really fast at the beginning of the game, which would be really frustrating for players to spawn next to.

Same logic as the GPTI : offer something for conquerers, so that each interaction with each type of CS offers something.

a CS can only build more units up to it's cap, but they could be killed/lost. Hermit dragon with a higher supply cap would mean it can absorb more CS unit gifts.

So why not make it so Hermit Dragon has much higher unit supply, and gives double influence for unit gifts to them?

I think the best solution is simply to increase their unit production. That way, conquering such a CState would be an actual battle.

This seems really powerful relative to the other CS bonuses. It also unlocks in renaissance (unless it doesn't, in which case its WAY too good).

Let me think on this one. Maybe it could give 1 tile vision of other major civ's capitals that you have met?

Good idea.

Is this the CS itself has the +50% production, or their major civ ally? I think the TR range would hurt you as much as it helps (excess range lowers gold value of TRs).
I like the increased healing for allies in their territory; I think that and the cargo/work boat production could probably be standalone.

All of this is for their civ ally. You're right for the TR range, I'll axe that part.

 

[pineappledan]

It would only be for the units used by the CState itself, not the one they give you. This way, it has a stronger army that can be of use during wars (contrary to Dragon Hermit CS that are mostly defensive).

Right, I forgot that you're mainly concerned with making militaristic ones unique to themselves, since they already give a unique ally bonus. 30XP to themselves is totally fine.

Same logic as the GPTI : offer something for conquerers, so that each interaction with each type of CS offers something.

oh okay. Makes sense.

In that case though, i feel even more strongly that it should be at most 1 GW. Not 3. You're weighing the 3 great peoples' worth of GWs against a single GPTI. Not only that, but 9culture per turn means that CS is going to gobble up a massive radius, and necessitate conquering it just to give some breathing room.

I think the best solution is simply to increase their unit production. That way, conquering such a CState would be an actual battle.

increase unit production and war supply i think. Let them actually carry more units.

 

[Hinin]

In that case though, i feel even more strongly that it should be at most 1 GW. Not 3. You're weighing the 3 great peoples' worth of GWs against a single GPTI. Not only that, but 9culture per turn means that CS is going to gobble up a massive radius, and necessitate conquering it just to give some breathing room.

Well in that case I would be more in favour of 2 GWorks : this gives a sum of yields equivalent to a GPTI. As for the border growth part, that will be unique to cultural CS (and quite thematic I think), but in the same way military CStates will have a defensive Citadel and Maritime CStates will have a boost in production.

increase unit production and war supply i think. Let them actually carry more units.

That's what I wrote.

 

[pineappledan]

I think at a minimum you're going to have to make that buildings that hold the GWs seriously ****** border growth, like give a combined +50% or 100% culture cost of tiles.

You would probably have to do a similar thing to the Religious CS with their holy site, because that tile has 5

 

[Hinin]

I think at a minimum you're going to have to make that buildings that hold the GWs seriously ****** border growth, like give a combined +50%=100% culture cost of tiles.

You would probably have to do a similar thing to the Religious CS with their holy site, because that tile has 5

That's not difficult. Tweaks like that are made in SQL and will come after tests.

 

[InkAxis]

One of the cultural ones could also gift GW (though not very often).

 

[Hinin]

By the way, I'm thinking about extending the "no war with ally" part of the Golden City combination to all Friendly CStates, for three reasons :

• It makes things more homogeneous and easy to understand, instead of a confusing mass of exception (hello, French language)
• It facilitates the survival of the Friendly CStates, usually the weakest in term of military power. With the facilitation of PtP they offers (easier to make, but weaker advantages), it basically makes Friendly CStates nations that survive not by the sword, but by causing as little friction as possible and being a good partner to everyone (so actually attacking a Friendly CState would anger a lot of people)
• It makes the diplomatic game more interesting in the late game : you can't simply lock a rival out of the diplomatic game by declaring war on him and making any diplomatic mission impossible. The Friendly City-States will always be available (so the swing states of the diplomatic game).

Of course, these CStates can still be attacked if you really want to, but they will put themselves into trouble as little as possible (which I think fits well thematically), contrary to Hostile CStates, who survive by being as threatening and closed-off as possible.

One of the cultural ones could also gift GW (though not very often).

I keep this idea in my book.

 

[pineappledan]

Makes sense. Right now you can hypothetically blitz a ton of diplomatic units, expend them all and get just barely allied with competing civs, then DoW them and lock everyone out before anyone can react.

 

[Hinin]

Makes sense. Right now you can hypothetically blitz a ton of diplomatic units, expend them all and get just barely allied with competing civs, then DoW them and lock everyone out before anyone can react.

Ok then. Swing States they will be.

Spoiler Friendly CStates, your last hope for countering the DV :

 

[Hinin]

Also, do you have an idea for the Recluse Court (Cultural Hostile) ? Adding even more GWorks to the CS isn't a very good idea all things considered, and the TR restriction / bonus isn't very good design when I think about it (it would mean 1 TR only, except for Venice, which would be unbalanced).

Edit : Keep in mind that it must stay in the design spirit of Hostile CStates : focused on self-improvement, with major civs being considered more of a nuisance.
=> Maybe no border growth malus for this one type (contrary to other Cultural CStates) ? This really gives the idea of the selfish nobilitas.

 

[pineappledan]

Also, do you have an idea for the Recluse Court (Cultural Hostile) ? Adding more GWorks to the CS isn't a very good idea all things considered, and the TR restriction / bonus isn't very good design when I think about it (it would mean 1 TR only, except for Venice, which would be unbalanced).

It would also be extremely hard to flip that city, because if only the already allied civ can send TRs to it, if that civ went statecraft they are the only civ that can build influence with TRs.

For Hostile/Cultural, I think that 1 GMusic and +100% from TRs to its Ally is sufficient.
Some other ideas:

Elitist - Influence decays more quickly, but +25% Culture per turn for Allies
Genius - Gives a random type of GWAM to Allies instead of Culture per turn (GWAM appears in capital; the type is chosen at the beginning of the game)​

I think the Neutral cultural Patronage should be "If Allied, Trade Routes to city grant +15%Great Person Rate to the Trade route's Origin city"

I don't think you want to make it an on-empire effect; that sounds too good

 

[Hinin]

I think the Neutral cultural Patronage should be "If Allied, Trade Routes to city grant +15%Great Person Rate to the Trade route's Origin city"

I agree.

For Hostile/Cultural, I think that 1 GMusic and +100% from TRs to its Ally is sufficient.
Some other ideas:
Elitist - Influence decays more quickly, but +25% Culture per turn for Allies
Genius - Gives a random type of GWAM to Allies instead of Culture per turn (GWAM appears in capital; the type is chosen at the beginning of the game)

Problem with Influence decay is that, currently, there is a point in the game when it doesn't matter anymore for diplomatic civs : they gain too much per turn to be affected by that...

What about this ? Recluse Court - Has 1 additionnal GWMusic and no border growth malus (contrary to other Cultural CStates). +100% to TRs from its Ally.

 

[pineappledan]

Problem with Influence decay is that, currently, there is a point in the game when it doesn't matter anymore for diplomatic civs : they gain too much per turn to be affected by that...

... That's fine isn't it? If you wanted abilities so substantive they warped the game then we'd all just play with UCS.

What about this ? Recluse Court - Has 1 additionnal GWMusic and no border growth malus (contrary to other Cultural CStates). +100% to TRs from its Ally.

Why would you remove the border malus? If you started next to one of these city-states, it would hurt you very badly. Other civs would get to expand normally while you had to deal with a city-state's 3rd ring eating all the settling locations before you even got your first settler out.

 

[Hinin]

... That's fine isn't it? If you wanted abilities so substantive they warped the game then we'd all just play with UCS.

+25% Culture per turn for Allies

Not when you make it the balancing factor for such a strong bonus.

Or I didn't understand what you meant for the bonus itself.

Why would you remove the border malus? If you started next to one of these city-states, it would hurt you very badly. Other civs would get to expand normally while you had to deal with a city-state's 3rd ring eating all the settling locations before you even got your first settler out.

Each Hostile CState, in a way, can be an hindrance to nearby players (except for Merchantile ones, that just hoards resources while being mean to everyone) : pirates, big religious pressure spot difficult to remove, enormous army. However, the ally of these hostile CS can in turn gain benefits from their hostility : free TR passage for the ally through pirate water, military bulwark that can protect a flank very efficiently, that kind of thing. That's the general design I would like for Hostile CS (very much WIP) : a general hindrance that can be tamed for bonuses.

For the Recluse Court, the idea was to make it a CState that can indeed gobble up a lot of territory early on, but allying with them in turn grants you access to this big territory (+ healing and such).

Of course, that may not be the best solution, but these are still only concepts anyway. We're here to talk about them.

 

[pineappledan]

I thought the idea with hostile CS is that they are harder to befriend (generally their quests hurt your diplomacy in some other way), but they have very exclusive bonuses, or ones that can be used more offensively against opponents. Not that they themselves would be offensive against you. That feels like they're becoming too active.

 

[InkAxis]

Each Hostile CState, in a way, can be an hindrance to nearby players (except for Merchantile ones, that just hoards resources while being mean to everyone) : pirates, big religious pressure spot difficult to remove, enormous army. However, the ally of these hostile CS can in turn gain benefits from their hostility : free TR passage for the ally through pirate water, military bulwark that can protect a flank very efficiently, that kind of thing. That's the general design I would like for Hostile CS (very much WIP) : a general hindrance that can be tamed for bonuses.

For the Recluse Court, the idea was to make it a CState that can indeed gobble up a lot of territory early on, but allying with them in turn grants you access to this big territory (+ healing and such).

I like this idea a lot, but it needs to be executed well.
It needs to have very tangible (tangible, not necessarily OP) benefits for allies. Maybe whenever your allied pirates pillage, you get some of the yields? The large borders of the cultural CS also need some tangible bonus.
I think it's a good idea though.

 

[Recursive]

@Hinin City-States don't have unit supply. They also don't deal with Gold or Happiness, for that matter. They do have a unit cap, though.

Currently City-State AI is programmed to delete any Missionaries they gain. Did you mean they would create them in their ally's territory?

 

[Hinin]

@Hinin City-States don't have unit supply. They also don't deal with Gold or Happiness, for that matter. They do have a unit cap, though.

Currently City-State AI is programmed to delete any Missionaries they gain. Did you mean they would create them in their ally's territory?

Nice to know. I'm missing elements to properly assess how some things works and how to build bonuses around them. The lack of an updated wiki for the mod hurts.

So, I should as well ask now :

• How do City-States unlock technologies ?
• How do they queue buildings and units ? Do they have favor certain things ?
  
• Does their Cities suffer a malus or a bonus for some yields ?
• Do they have additionnal unique buildings in them (for example to give them the extra defense we often see on them) ?

They do have a unit cap, though.

So this is what will be increased for militaristic and maritime CS.

Currently City-State AI is programmed to delete any Missionaries they gain.

If they didn't delete these Missionaries, would they be able to use them ? If yes, then the Religious CStates should be able to keep them. If not, then the Missionary spawning mechanic should provide the Units in the ally's territory.