Projects/Colonies

Nolan08

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I like the idea of colonies for this mod because it shrinks the requisite size for Europe's historical reach. My only complaint is that colonies often switched empire's in history.

For example, Quebec changed ownership from the English to the French, The Gold Coast changed from the Portuguese to the Dutch, to the English. New England was originally owned by the Dutch and then changed hands to the English.

You see where I am going with this...is there any way to change this mechanic, or is it simply written in stone at this point?
 
You see where I am going with this...is there any way to change this mechanic, or is it simply written in stone at this point?

Colonies are Projects and unlike Wonders, Projects are not designed to switch hands. I was looking at this long time ago and allowing for colonies to be traded was borderline impossible (at the every least, it would be way too much trouble). At this point, we will not add such an option.
 
Couldn't every colony project generate a 'colony resource', which is required to build a normal building (well, a national wonder might be better), which generates the proper resources (like 1 gold and 2 slaves)? You can then trade the colony resource around, which causes you to lose it, which causes the colony building to go inactive (and as such causes you to lose the 1 gold and 2 slaves of the example)...

True, it'd be a huge hassle, but... Would it be possible?
 
Couldn't every colony project generate a 'colony resource', which is required to build a normal building (well, a national wonder might be better), which generates the proper resources (like 1 gold and 2 slaves)? You can then trade the colony resource around, which causes you to lose it, which causes the colony building to go inactive (and as such causes you to lose the 1 gold and 2 slaves of the example)...

True, it'd be a huge hassle, but... Would it be possible?

This is doable, but this is too much at this point. Maybe we can consider this for some time in the future, but for the time being we will not make such big changes at this point.
 
Colonies are Projects and unlike Wonders, Projects are not designed to switch hands. I was looking at this long time ago and allowing for colonies to be traded was borderline impossible (at the every least, it would be way too much trouble). At this point, we will not add such an option.

Yeah, I understand that it would be a big hassle/borderline impossible. The mechanics would certainly be difficult to implement.
 
Nothing related to these past posts (even though I really like this idea of changing colonies' ownership), but I would like to introduce an idea that has already been discussed but it was always rejected because "Russia would take it all". In the process of merging RFCE with RFCE++ to make RFCE 2.0 (and thus adding Novgorod and Crimea), and the possible addition of a Novgorodian LH (Nevsky), I think this subject may be touched again: Eastern Steppe Colonies.

As this was rejected until now, RFCE lets Russia have lots of extra resources on its land, that would fit to be awarded by these eastern colonies. As Westerners can get colonies, Russia (that can't, but had in real history) can get lots of resources in the empty lands of Vologda, Nizhny Novgorod and other far away provinces. Instead of that, we could create those Eastern Steppe Colonies that could give these resources.

In a previous post I said we could have 4 Eastern Steppe resources:

1 - Karelia
Karelia can be disputed between Muscovy and Sweden, and after RFCE 2.0 by Muscovy, Novgorod and Sweden;

2 - Vologda
Vologda is a sure resource to Muscovy, and after RFCE 2.0 will be disputed by Muscovy and Novgorod;

3 - Donets (or Simbirsk)
This is another sure Muscovian resource (as Kiev will probably be dead by the time you can use it). After 2.0 it would be disputed between Muscovy and Crimea (and a possible Kiev);

4 - Kuban
Kuban can be disputed by Muscovy and the Ottomans (and a possible Kiev too). Ottomans like to settle cities there. After 2.0 we add Crimea to the dispute.

So by now we have Muscovy with most of the resources (kind of balanced IMO, as they were the only ones to get the steppes) and the possibility of Sweden and the Ottomans to challenge Muscovy on this task (and always the possible Kiev). After 2.0 we add Novgorod and Crimea to the challenge.

I think these colonies should give less resources then the Overseas Colonies, and for that we should reduce the amount of resources in Russian provinces. For the Colonies these are my suggestions:

1 - Principality of Perm / Principality of Great Perm / Great Perm

The lands after Vologda, owned by the Novgorodians up to 1323 AD and then absorbed by Muscovy in 1505 AD (but vassalized earlier). Fur seems to be the only resource mentioned about the region: "(...), the fur trade between the Great Perm and Western Europe was possible via only the Russian Novgorod Republic, which became a suzerain of all the Northern Russia." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherdyn,_Perm_Krai);

2 - Khanate of Kazan / Kazan

The Khanate was finally conquered in 1552 AD by Russia. Before that it was one of the states following the desintegration of the Golden Horde. "The Khanate's urban population produced clay ware, wood and metal handiworks, leather, armor, ploughs and jewels.", this is the only thing I found about it. Maybe gems is a good resource to be given, any other ideas based on the info is welcome (maybe Timber?). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khanate_of_Kazan)

3 - Khanate of Astrakhan / Astrakhan

Similar to Kazan, it descended from the Golden Horde and was finally conquered by Russia in 1556 AD. "Its location at the mouth of the Volga, straddling important trade routes, allowed it to accumulate significant wealth, (...)". Maybe some exotic resources from Asia could be awarded. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrakhan_Khanate)

4 - Khanate of Sibir / Siberia

The Khanate of Sibir has the same story of both the other Khanates. The downfall was in 1598 AD. I don't know if this should be split in two (Khanate of Sibir and Eastern Siberia), as the Khanate wasn't the whole Siberia, and it took more 41 years to reach the Pacific Ocean. A single Sibir or the Eastern Siberia could give North America Access to let Russia (or someone else) get Alaska. In the page of Sibir it doesn't say anything about the region's goods, but in the page of Russian Conquest of Siberia it talks about the yasak, a fur trade. In its' page, yasak is primarily a fur tribute, but "cattle was also allowed as payment in some circumstances." The "Yasak payments formed the basis for Russia's fur trade with Western Europe.". Also, this Yasak wasn't only for Siberia, but for the whole conquered region in the steppes. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khanate_of_Sibir , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_conquest_of_Siberia , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasak)

5 - Nogai Horde

I couldn't find good info about it. In the page it says the downfall ocurred in 1634 AD, but in the texts it seems they survived for a longer time. No resources either, but with its capital in the Caspian sea, it's not hard to believe it was similar to the tradeful Astrakhan.

6 - Alaska

Alaska is depicted as a poor colony with only fur trade in the hands of Russia. Only after the US the gold rush came. I think Alaska should need North America Access and the Eastern Steppe Resource. The North America Resource could be given by the Sibir or Eastern Siberia as I said above. Then it could give Russia the so needed Atlantic Access Resource. As the colonization only took place in the last years of the mod's timeline, it sure can be a third way of completing UHV3, and Alaska could be possible only with a late tech.

* - Kazakh Khanate

I would only add this if balance needs it. The conquest of the Kazakh Khanate is after the end of the mod (1847 AD), so it's not accurate to include it.


The strongest reason against these colonies was the russian monopoly over them. Well, if the resources granted are few, and will be removed mostly from the rich russian lands, in terms of balance it'll be the same thing. On the other hand, the monopoly is not a 99% chance happening. Most chances are for Russia (Muscovy), but a competition with Sweden and the Ottomans (and always the possible Kiev) make it harder for the monopoly. With the addition of Crimea and Novogorod it'll be even harder. In concept terms, I think this sentence makes it all possible by a historical point of view: "The (Kazan) supporters of a union with the Ottoman Empire and the Crimean Khanate tried to exploit the population's grievances to provoke revolts (in 1496, 1500, and 1505), but with negligible results." (Khanate of Kazan page linked above). And the bloody wars between Russia and the Ottomans throughout history (concerning these territories) is another good fact.

BTW, I thought about Muslim colonies for the Ottomans, but then I remembered that this is already awarded by the Islamic FPs. Atlantic Access for the Overseas Colonies, Eastern Steppes for the Russian conquests in North Asia and the Islamic FPs system for the muslim world, I think we finally reached the eurocentric imperialistic period of history this mod tries to simulate (up to 1800 AD).
 
Good ideas, so I think there will be a East Russian access" as a new resource.

About the colonial projects, IMO, if possible, you could make those projects double expensive (or just 50%) if someone else wants to build it. So, it will cost 4x (or 2x) more if another civ wants to build it, and then 8x...
 
so I think there will be a East Russian access" as a new resource.

Umm, I'm not so sure :mischief:
The ideas are nice, but I'm not convinced it would work well in the mod
Maybe some kind of implementation will make it into 2.0

About the colonial projects, IMO, if possible, you could make those projects double expensive (or just 50%) if someone else wants to build it. So, it will cost 4x (or 2x) more if another civ wants to build it, and then 8x...

Sry, but no
It would totally mess up the AI
 
I hope it does, why Russia and only Russia would be left off of the overexpansion outside Europe and North Africa? Atlantic Colonies for westerners, islamic FPs for the muslins and the Rus' should have their own too, as they did in Real History.

BTW, I discovered something else to clarify more of the resources gained:
" In the beginning of the 14th century the Novgorodians explored the Arctic Ocean, Barents Sea, Kara Sea, and the West-Siberian river Ob. The Ugric tribes, which inhabited the Northern Urals, had to pay tribute to Novgorod the Great. The lands to the north of the city, rich with furs, sea fauna, salt etc., were of great economic importance to the Novgorodians and they fought a protracted series of wars with Moscow beginning in the late 14th century in order to keep these lands. Losing them meant economic and cultural decline for the city and its inhabitants. Indeed, the ultimate failure of the Novgorodians to win these wars led to the downfall of the Republic." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Republic#History)

So salt and sea resources may be awarded as well.

Of course this mechanic will be a lot better when Crimea and Novgorod become a part of it, but I think it can be implemented before 2.0. If Russia takes it all, no problems, it'll have more or less the same resources it can have now, and as they never complete UHV1 (only if Kiev lives, but if this happens, they wont have an easy time completing UHV2), even getting the AA resource they wont win by UHVs.
 
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