Lord Oden
WarLord
Allotment (used by Swedish) and Anti Seige II seem to be broken promotions.
Promotion Bugs
- Thread starter Lord Oden
- Start date
stackpointer
King
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2013
- Messages
- 809
Broken how? I believe allotment is used to denote that the units are given for free using the UA?
Lord Oden
WarLord
The text in the civilopedia was the missing link text. Also the discription is vague for Swedish UA. By free "strong" unit I expected a free unit with additional promotions. All I saw was the allotment promotion with broken link text. I also noticed that the free units get upgraded at no cost. Did not expect that.
stackpointer
King
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2013
- Messages
- 809
Fixed here: https://github.com/Thalassicus/cep-bnw/commit/f02e673e6cedc1e8a41edf1d2bc2c8eed80cce44
"Allotment promotion should now have a description (+10% strength / -100% cost to upgrade)."
"Allotment promotion should now have a description (+10% strength / -100% cost to upgrade)."
Samurai are supposed to be much stronger than long swords. That's deliberate, or at least it is deliberate that it should be stronger with a set strength above longsword. It's been that of muskets (not arques) for a while.
The arque upgrade path (along with destroyers to carriers) I pointed out as odd back in the armies thread before it went live a month ago or so. I don't know why they're still "vanguard", or why GGs/MGs aren't just ranged upgrades with some defensive effects. I guess this is to keep the vanguard path alive rather than merge it into the others?
The arque upgrade path (along with destroyers to carriers) I pointed out as odd back in the armies thread before it went live a month ago or so. I don't know why they're still "vanguard", or why GGs/MGs aren't just ranged upgrades with some defensive effects. I guess this is to keep the vanguard path alive rather than merge it into the others?
ExpiredReign
Deity
I think perhaps we are taking the "dripping water" as opposed to the "flooding torrent" approach to these Gatling Gun/Machine Gun changes.
One drop at a time each desired change is trickling into the mod.
One drop at a time each desired change is trickling into the mod.
I can't believe that the Samurai being that strong is deliberate. I figured it had to be a bug. They are ridiculously strong. It's basically a really advanced Industrial Era unit fighting in the Medieval Era. I was playing against Japan and seeing them conquer everyone in their path. I declared war on them to check their power. I'm more advanced than they are. They had Samarais and Arquebusiers. I had cannons and musketmen. The Samarais are stronger than the Musketmen. They have the same strength as a musketmen (which is an Industrial Era unit), but better promotions. They are really hard to kill. One of them can easily take a city. They should be a strong Longswordsman, not a Medieval era unit more powerful than anything until Riflemen show up in the late Industrial era (or early modern era). It's just plain ridiculous and whoever had that idea clearly needs their head examined.
The other change with Gatling Guns and having Arquebusiers upgrade into them is not ridiculous, but just plain strange. They should naturally upgrade into Musketmen. Crossbowmen upgrade to Gatling Guns since they are both ranged units. I would like to see a unit in between crossbowmen and gatling guns that is some sort of ranged unit, but it currently doesn't exist.
I also didn't realize that Destroyers upgrade to Carriers. That's just plain odd and I'll change that for my own games. They are completely different types of units (and opposite roles). Destroyers are front line defenders that protect your ironclads and battleships and submarines. Carriers are ships that need protection. If your Destroyers suddenly turn into Carriers, then who's protecting the fleet? Craziness. The unfortunate thing is that I play games on Marathon speed for the longer times in each era. You can fight huge long wars without units upgrading to new ones. You really get the feel of each era. I also slowed down early science to make the ancient era last longer. I seemed rushed to get to the classical era. Anyways, I have a good game going right now where I just reached the industrial era. I was overlooking the issues with the samurais and odd arquebusiers upgrading to gatling guns. The destroyers upgrading to carriers is going to make the game unplayable once I get to the atomic era, and I can't reload the game with the new changes. I have to start a new game unfortunately. Oh well.
But really, it's just nuts having Samurais have the strength of musketmen (with even better promotions). Musketmen are unlocked with Smokeless Powder in the early industrial era. That's 3 levels of techs later than Steel where Samurais are unlocked. Crazy.
The other 2 changes with Destroyers and Arquebusiers is just odd. You don't have units upgrade to new units that have completely different roles. It would be like having your warriors upgrading to catapults.
The other change with Gatling Guns and having Arquebusiers upgrade into them is not ridiculous, but just plain strange. They should naturally upgrade into Musketmen. Crossbowmen upgrade to Gatling Guns since they are both ranged units. I would like to see a unit in between crossbowmen and gatling guns that is some sort of ranged unit, but it currently doesn't exist.
I also didn't realize that Destroyers upgrade to Carriers. That's just plain odd and I'll change that for my own games. They are completely different types of units (and opposite roles). Destroyers are front line defenders that protect your ironclads and battleships and submarines. Carriers are ships that need protection. If your Destroyers suddenly turn into Carriers, then who's protecting the fleet? Craziness. The unfortunate thing is that I play games on Marathon speed for the longer times in each era. You can fight huge long wars without units upgrading to new ones. You really get the feel of each era. I also slowed down early science to make the ancient era last longer. I seemed rushed to get to the classical era. Anyways, I have a good game going right now where I just reached the industrial era. I was overlooking the issues with the samurais and odd arquebusiers upgrading to gatling guns. The destroyers upgrading to carriers is going to make the game unplayable once I get to the atomic era, and I can't reload the game with the new changes. I have to start a new game unfortunately. Oh well.
But really, it's just nuts having Samurais have the strength of musketmen (with even better promotions). Musketmen are unlocked with Smokeless Powder in the early industrial era. That's 3 levels of techs later than Steel where Samurais are unlocked. Crazy.
The other 2 changes with Destroyers and Arquebusiers is just odd. You don't have units upgrade to new units that have completely different roles. It would be like having your warriors upgrading to catapults.
I think the theory on the Samurai is Japan routinely showed up as weak so a crazy strong unique unit helped it out. War Chariots for Egypt are also a little nuts on strength too. I'd be fine reducing the strength to some intermediate space where it's a buffed longsword with some promotions myself, but the set strength as it is (not precisely where it is numerically, but it being linked to the musket strength) goes back to mid-GEM at least. It's not a bug at any rate.
I have no idea where the destroyer-carrier-destroyer path as an idea even came from. But it's absolutely dumb. The arque isn't sensible either. It's at least plausible as something to upgrade from pikes. It can do that anyway without merging it into the GG/MG line though.
I think the issue there is that the vanguard promotion set is still distinguished from that of soldier units (medic vs siege say), so the unit paths need to be available. If we abolish the distinctions, the "vanguard" units still have value as they're non-resourced, compared to swords and horses, and can have defensive promotions or anti-mounted/anti-tank counters to make them useful in combat while still being effective anti-city options with access to siege. I really don't see the point of making a dedicated healer line of units that also can't attack cities effectively. This makes the units too specialized and removes choices from the game from the player. I should be able to use spears/pikes to attack and conquer with some ability if I'm short on iron, say, while they still make excellent screens for archers and catapults alongside swords if I have them. I should not be shoehorned into making them into defensive screens that heal and having to rely mostly on archers, catapults, and ships to attack cities. I think this is the hold-up in changing the land-unit paths.
If the issue is the AI is making too many healers to be able to fight aggressively, give them more XP to pick something else or see if the promotion AI can be altered to give it a lower order of priority over strength bonuses that help attack or hold ground first.
I have no idea where the destroyer-carrier-destroyer path as an idea even came from. But it's absolutely dumb. The arque isn't sensible either. It's at least plausible as something to upgrade from pikes. It can do that anyway without merging it into the GG/MG line though.
I think the issue there is that the vanguard promotion set is still distinguished from that of soldier units (medic vs siege say), so the unit paths need to be available. If we abolish the distinctions, the "vanguard" units still have value as they're non-resourced, compared to swords and horses, and can have defensive promotions or anti-mounted/anti-tank counters to make them useful in combat while still being effective anti-city options with access to siege. I really don't see the point of making a dedicated healer line of units that also can't attack cities effectively. This makes the units too specialized and removes choices from the game from the player. I should be able to use spears/pikes to attack and conquer with some ability if I'm short on iron, say, while they still make excellent screens for archers and catapults alongside swords if I have them. I should not be shoehorned into making them into defensive screens that heal and having to rely mostly on archers, catapults, and ships to attack cities. I think this is the hold-up in changing the land-unit paths.
If the issue is the AI is making too many healers to be able to fight aggressively, give them more XP to pick something else or see if the promotion AI can be altered to give it a lower order of priority over strength bonuses that help attack or hold ground first.
Maybe part of the problem with the Samurais has to do with in GEM Arquebusiers did not exist. The Musketmen unit in GEM was just a bit stronger than a Longswordsmen unit. Now the Longswordsmen unit is at 24 while the Musketman unit is at 37. I followed your suggestion and set the Samurai to be at 27 strength with a couple of promotions. If Japan is habitually weak then perhaps it needs some buff to its unique ability.
Ahriman
Tyrant
It's issues like some of these that I find really frustrating; core problems that make the key mechanics of the game (military units and combat) not work properly because of weird strengths or upgrade paths. Fixing military units should be a priority way above other changes.
So I started a new game (marathon speed again) and this time by random chance I am playing as Rome. As by random luck I'm on the same continent as Japan. Between Japan and me there's Sweden. Also China and the Zulus are on the same continent. It takes a long time to progress through the eras on marathon speed.
Early on in the game I rushed to Bronze Working to unlock Legions for Rome. It's really nice and powerful that Legions are at Bronze Working instead of Iron Working. In my version Sailing and Optics are pushed back a tad, so by the time I rushed to get Liburnas at Optics, it was full on classical era. I blitzed a coastal city state with Legions and Liburnas and it fell quickly. Then in the medieval era took out Sweden pretty easily. Then I attacked a couple of Chinese cities and their allied city state in the early Renaissance era. Japan launched a surprise attack when I wasn't expecting it and caught me off guard with my army far away from where they attacked from. I had to stop playing due to running out of time to play for that session.
But they are coming at me with a load of Samurais and those things are tough but not the incredible monster beasts that they were before. Japan has already conquered a few city states, so they are doing just fine without the major upgrade giving them a strength of 37 for Samurais. I have their strength at 27 compared with 24 for a normal longswordsmen. They also have a couple of promotions to make them really strong. Definitely recommend nerfing the Samurai. A strength of 27 instead of 37 seems about right.
Early on in the game I rushed to Bronze Working to unlock Legions for Rome. It's really nice and powerful that Legions are at Bronze Working instead of Iron Working. In my version Sailing and Optics are pushed back a tad, so by the time I rushed to get Liburnas at Optics, it was full on classical era. I blitzed a coastal city state with Legions and Liburnas and it fell quickly. Then in the medieval era took out Sweden pretty easily. Then I attacked a couple of Chinese cities and their allied city state in the early Renaissance era. Japan launched a surprise attack when I wasn't expecting it and caught me off guard with my army far away from where they attacked from. I had to stop playing due to running out of time to play for that session.
But they are coming at me with a load of Samurais and those things are tough but not the incredible monster beasts that they were before. Japan has already conquered a few city states, so they are doing just fine without the major upgrade giving them a strength of 37 for Samurais. I have their strength at 27 compared with 24 for a normal longswordsmen. They also have a couple of promotions to make them really strong. Definitely recommend nerfing the Samurai. A strength of 27 instead of 37 seems about right.
Ahriman
Tyrant
37 strength seems insane. 27 or 28 would be fine, plus a decent promotion that lasts when they are upgraded.
mlac99
Chieftain
Agreed. Any chance to return it to previous upgrade path ?
wolverine2112
Warlord
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2011
- Messages
- 236
I play Japan ALL the time...and yes Sams are too strong 
wolverine2112
Warlord
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2011
- Messages
- 236
How do I change thier power...i can't find it anywhere.
@wolverine, unique units are set in the leaders directory.
Samurai are set to have the strength of riflemen in the file (non-number), but I believe it could just be set at 27 or 28 as desired the way naval units are set in the armies directory.
The destroyers carriers upgrade path should be regarded as bug and replaced too (I do it immediately). There's no justification for the change made anywhere that I can find so I just (charitably) assume it was a bug/error rather than a deliberate shift.
Samurai are set to have the strength of riflemen in the file (non-number), but I believe it could just be set at 27 or 28 as desired the way naval units are set in the armies directory.
The destroyers carriers upgrade path should be regarded as bug and replaced too (I do it immediately). There's no justification for the change made anywhere that I can find so I just (charitably) assume it was a bug/error rather than a deliberate shift.
ExpiredReign
Deity
And your charity is greatly appreciated.
In the leaders directory there's a file called CEL_End.sql:
That's the code change that I made in the file to change Samurais to have a strength of 27 instead of 37. The comments are my own. I comment every change that I make to the mod so that later on I can distinguish what was originally in the mod and what was my own personal change, in case I want to undo it or whatever.
The original code had:
I set it to 1.13 because 1.13 times 24 equals 27. If you wanted it to be 30 strength, set that number to 1.25. Or put it at whatever value you feel is appropriate. Personally, I'm thinking about changing it to 28, but that's a modest change. I think it would need to be around 1.16 to have a strength of 28.
Spoiler :
That's the code change that I made in the file to change Samurais to have a strength of 27 instead of 37. The comments are my own. I comment every change that I make to the mod so that later on I can distinguish what was originally in the mod and what was my own personal change, in case I want to undo it or whatever.
The original code had:
Spoiler :
I set it to 1.13 because 1.13 times 24 equals 27. If you wanted it to be 30 strength, set that number to 1.25. Or put it at whatever value you feel is appropriate. Personally, I'm thinking about changing it to 28, but that's a modest change. I think it would need to be around 1.16 to have a strength of 28.
