Promotions, Experience, Generals, Paratroopers and Privateers!

[Iceciro]

As you can guess from the thread title, this is a pretty varied list of things I just wanted to start an open discussion on.

1) Promotions + Experience: It wasn't until the gunpowder era I realized that Dynamic XP was turned on in my game - I noticed when I became very curious as to why I had so few Great Generals and well-promoted units aside from the XP they got from buildings. So my comments are

A) This system dramatically changes the game for experienced warmongers - it should probably be off by default. The lack of getting XP to keep your troops strong and smashing because you have a tech advantage hurts if you come up against an enemy of equal tech and don't have the elite troops you've grown accustomed to. But by far the biggest malus is that it cuts into your great generals, and hard.

B) Does the AI get the same dynamic XP? I've seen certain civs get GGs all over the place - are they just fighting more even battles, or are they getting an advantage here?

2) Battlefield Promotions - how are the random promotions gained on the battlefield given out? Do they pull from a certain list? I ask because some of the units I was counting on to hold a hillside picked up Fanatic as an autopromotion and were promptly driven over due to -15% defense. That... really sucked. Fanatic probably shouldn't be an autopromotion... because in some cases it does more harm than good.

3) Peaks - there are no peak defense/attack promotions... would it be too much if Guerrilla worked for peaks too?

4) Paratroopers/Privateers - it has always bugged me that these are specific units on their own. There's some argument for Paratroopers, but to me both of these things, being a paratrooper or a privateer, aren't enough to make them individual units - rather, I'd really love to see them enacted as promotions you can give troops/boats that have the same effect. You might say "but then you'd have piracy in the modern era" but then look at places like Somalia where you still do. If necessary the Privateer promo could give a -X% versus Modern Warhship classes or something. And lets face it, I'd just love to be parachuting flamethrowers into enemy cities rather than just base Paratroopers only.

 

[Afforess]

A) This system dramatically changes the game for experienced warmongers - it should probably be off by default.

Eh, I've gotten way more complaints about too much XP than too little. I'm keeping it as is for now.

The lack of getting XP to keep your troops strong and smashing because you have a tech advantage hurts if you come up against an enemy of equal tech and don't have the elite troops you've grown accustomed to. But by far the biggest malus is that it cuts into your great generals, and hard.

So picking and choosing your battles, instead of the old games, where you could smash the AI, is bad?

B) Does the AI get the same dynamic XP? I've seen certain civs get GGs all over the place - are they just fighting more even battles, or are they getting an advantage here?

Dynamic XP works the same for humans as the AI. They may be getting an advantage because they will fight riskier battles than humans would... and the riskier the battle, the more XP you earn.

2) Battlefield Promotions - how are the random promotions gained on the battlefield given out? Do they pull from a certain list? I ask because some of the units I was counting on to hold a hillside picked up Fanatic as an autopromotion and were promptly driven over due to -15% defense. That... really sucked. Fanatic probably shouldn't be an autopromotion... because in some cases it does more harm than good.

No list; it's based on the stats of the promotion.

3) Peaks - there are no peak defense/attack promotions... would it be too much if Guerrilla worked for peaks too?

Good idea! There should be a line of promotions for peaks as well.

4) Paratroopers/Privateers - it has always bugged me that these are specific units on their own. There's some argument for Paratroopers, but to me both of these things, being a paratrooper or a privateer, aren't enough to make them individual units - rather, I'd really love to see them enacted as promotions you can give troops/boats that have the same effect. You might say "but then you'd have piracy in the modern era" but then look at places like Somalia where you still do. If necessary the Privateer promo could give a -X% versus Modern Warhship classes or something. And lets face it, I'd just love to be parachuting flamethrowers into enemy cities rather than just base Paratroopers only.

You may have something here...

 

[Blackflag421]

Privateer/paratrooper as a promotion sounds neat.

The only way I can see the AI getting dynamic XP and gaining GGs like that (like it did when I had it enabled) is because they're spamming units nonstop (and winning with low odds).

Battlefield promos seem to work on the same system as dynamic XP - if you have low odds and win, you'll probably get a battlefield promotion. Not nearly as nice when you have dynamic XP enabled, because you would've gotten a boatload of XP instead of that woodsman 1 promotion that you didn't really need.

Edit: Afforess posts faster than I do.

 

[Iceciro]

I'm not arguing that dynamic XP isn't a positive change for the game, mind - but I am arguing it is a bit of a game-changer to have on by default. TBH I have no idea when it was even added This whole game is turning out differently than I'm used to between Dynamic XP, Ruthless AI, and Flexible Difficulty - in a good way - I just don't like having options defaulted that make such massive changes.

Regarding Battlefield Promotions: So it's purely on the stats of the promotion - does it relate at all to the battle I just fought? I seem to get woodsman more when I fight in forests, amphibious when I attacked over water... and in that case, why did it think giving fanatic to a unit that won on defense was a good idea?

I've also gotten Fieldsman off a unit defending on a hill. Which made me unhappy.
Is there any way you could add some weight that makes a promotion that gives a -% very unlikely to get?
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Glad to hear you did positively respond to the points of Paratroopers... Let me tell you, I'm engaged in a very long and painful landwar with the Hittites and I cannot wait for air power and paratroops to put stacks behind the lines.

 

[Killtech]

a promotion for paratroopers sounds good. however it requires more discussion on how to implement that. however i think if it's a promotion it should require bomber type planes to work properly. might work something like that: to parachute a unit there must be at least one unmoved bomber at the same plot. each parachuting marks a bomber as 'moved this turn'.

privateer promotion seems more problematic. though i like the sound of the idea several things must be changed for this to work properly.

• after a certain tech privateer have the same movement restrictions like other units. i.e. they reveal their nationality within borders.
• after a certain point on every killed privateer who was defeated while he attacked might trigger war with a certain chance.
• there must be a possibility for certain units to lose the promotion (or a show nationality button) as privateer units can be attacked by anyone which is rather a negative thing.

then submarines could automatically start as privateers
as for the show nationality button: can only be used within your border (or better cities) to prevent exploits. it should work as a switch.

as for the guerrilla promotion. good point. i think guerrilla III should enable 'can pass mountains' too.

 

[Blackflag421]

Killtech - subs automatically starting as privateers sounds good. The small chance to trigger war when a privateer is defeated (so the victor discovered who owned the privateer) sounds really cool. Would give an element of risk to privateer tactics, instead of free cash and XP.

Afforess - My only real complaint with dynamic XP is that it essentially penalizes good tactics, by making you get zero XP for those 99%+ odds. I suicided a bunch of siege to get those odds, but now I won't get XP because I did that? I'd use it if there was a minimum XP per battle limit, but right now if I settle GGs then my newly built and promoted units will almost never gain XP or get me more GG points.

 

[Killtech]

Afforess - My only real complaint with dynamic XP is that it essentially penalizes good tactics, by making you get zero XP for those 99%+ odds. I suicided a bunch of siege to get those odds, but now I won't get XP because I did that? I'd use it if there was a minimum XP per battle limit, but right now if I settle GGs then my newly built and promoted units will almost never gain XP or get me more GG points.

well at least siege weapons are little bit less overpowered then. sounds good to me that this bad tactic of exploiting the flawed design of siege unit type has at least a penalty.

nah, honestly. i don't think that's bad. though i deactivated the XP system for myself anyway. i just exploited it too much. my siege weapons are overpowered enough.

 

[Iceciro]

I rarely use my siege weapons - though that's largely because dragging them up to the frontline to do collateral damage to two units is a waste of a space... on the frontline. 3UPT drastically changes the way things work, though.

I do agree with Blackflag though - Dynamic XP does seem to penalize me for playing smart as opposed to simply zerging the enemy with low-odds units - a Shock Axe's decisive victory over a spearman is worse less than a javelineer's skin-of-the-teeth victory over the same unit.

Agreeing with Killtech - suicide seige sucks, and I'm glad for the limited units per tile option in the game to remove the effects. Honestly, even now its still a little annoying to have the AI spamming cannons to try and soften up my defenders. Luckily, drill promos help to soak that incoming fire. I'll be so glad when the enemy's Knights obsolete and I can run wild with first striking might.

 

[Blackflag421]

I rarely suicide siege, I was just using it as an example. If GG points weren't tied to exp units earn in combat it might be ok, since you can settle GGs to produce good starting units. Right now it's easier to mass produce outdated units for those <40% odds wins, instead of spending the higher hammers per unit on a modern unit that will never gain XP or GG points.

 

[Killtech]

hmm... i understand the problem now. as i said i turned XP off and i don't care about GG much (just no need) so i didn't notice it. i guess GG points should be calculated from the XP you would get without the battlefield promotions - then the promotions should be applied and the XP gain canceled to zero.

 

[Killtech]

agh... double post sry...

I rarely suicide siege, I was just using it as an example. If GG points weren't tied to exp units earn in combat it might be ok, since you can settle GGs to produce good starting units. Right now it's easier to mass produce outdated units for those <40% odds wins, instead of spending the higher hammers per unit on a modern unit that will never gain XP or GG points.

Agreeing with Killtech - suicide seige sucks, and I'm glad for the limited units per tile option in the game to remove the effects. Honestly, even now its still a little annoying to have the AI spamming cannons to try and soften up my defenders. Luckily, drill promos help to soak that incoming fire. I'll be so glad when the enemy's Knights obsolete and I can run wild with first striking might.

the funny part is that it's not even a suicide attack. mostly my catapults even survive. and even with 3UPT it's still extremely powerful. i mean i lose no units and win everything!

i have nothing against siege weapons having a very low chance of dieing if they attack. they just do way too much damage! why can't they just abort each fight after a fixed amount of rounds so there is no way they deal much damage.

would be cool if someone could alter SDK to allow an auto withdraw after n combat rounds for units. so attacking with catapults is just like bombarding but more effective and yet not as destructive as it is now. or one could extend the bombard option to work this way and disable default attack for siege weapons altogether - just the AI wound need to learn it.

 

[Afforess]

Regarding Battlefield Promotions: So it's purely on the stats of the promotion - does it relate at all to the battle I just fought? I seem to get woodsman more when I fight in forests, amphibious when I attacked over water...

Yes, that is how it works.

and in that case, why did it think giving fanatic to a unit that won on defense was a good idea?

It only looks at the positives a promotion gives. The defensive penalty wasn't a consideration, but the other factors that the fanatic promotion give were.

I've also gotten Fieldsman off a unit defending on a hill. Which made me unhappy.
Is there any way you could add some weight that makes a promotion that gives a -% very unlikely to get?

Yeah, but that wouldn't stop complaints. Someone would get it eventually.
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Afforess - My only real complaint with dynamic XP is that it essentially penalizes good tactics, by making you get zero XP for those 99%+ odds. I suicided a bunch of siege to get those odds, but now I won't get XP because I did that?

To understand why I made the change, remember what Experience stands for. It's how skilled the units are at battle. Winning a battle that you have no chance of losing doesn't earn you much experience. You only learn from close calls.

It puts much more value on withdraw chances.

I'd use it if there was a minimum XP per battle limit

There is. You will always earn at least 0.25 XP.

 

[Killtech]

To understand why I made the change, remember what Experience stands for. It's how skilled the units are at battle. Winning a battle that you have no chance of losing doesn't earn you much experience. You only learn from close calls.

It puts much more value on withdraw chances.

lol, thinking this further you could penalize players who try to circumvent this by using outdated units by applying a XP malus if a unit could be upgraded but it didn't.

hmm... thinking on it... i personally even like the idea. well, in the end everything that penalizes the player (i.e me) and gives AI better chances is something i like.

 

[Blackflag421]

I was sure I'd seen my units with 99.99-100% chance of victory getting 0 XP, which is when I disabled dynamic XP. I'll re-enable it and check that out again.

Does the withdraw chance from Flanking/GGs affect defensive withdraw chance? It doesn't seem to, and at least realistically the GG withdraw should affect it.

I do understand the reasoning for the XP change, I just disabled dynamic XP a few patches ago because I was sure it wasn't giving me any XP unless I had crappy odds.

 

[Sonereal]

Does the withdraw chance from Flanking/GGs affect defensive withdraw chance? It doesn't seem to, and at least realistically the GG withdraw should affect it.

It affects it in my game (which almost left my General open to attack).

 

[vincentz]

Regarding paratroopers :
I tried to set paratroopers (6) and marines (9) as natinal units, but upgradeable from infantry (And the modern ones as well). I havent gotten that far in the game to test how the AI responds to it, but it will hopefully open up for more use of both. Thinking about making marines require Naval Academy and paratroopers Military Airbase.

 

[NotSoGood]

I like the idea changing paratroopers to promotions. But what about the animations? Paratroopers have parachutes.

 

[xartah]

To understand why I made the change, remember what Experience stands for. It's how skilled the units are at battle. Winning a battle that you have no chance of losing doesn't earn you much experience. You only learn from close calls.

The problem with close calls is that they probably come with a high amount of casualties that need to be replaced which should result in a drop in experience. Winning with a high strength remaining should give more experience than one with low since it means the troops fought better. A unit that won a 50% odds battle with 90% strength remaining obviously did something better than the unit that won the same battle with 20% strength remaining.

 

[Iceciro]

Yeah, but that wouldn't stop complaints. Someone would get it eventually.

Yes, but reducing the chance those promotions are given out will reduce complaints about them - and its probably just a good idea anyways, unless you really like the idea of units randomly going completely religiously crazy... when my empire is Atheist.

To understand why I made the change, remember what Experience stands for. It's how skilled the units are at battle. Winning a battle that you have no chance of losing doesn't earn you much experience. You only learn from close calls.

It puts much more value on withdraw chances.

I'm more of the mind that xartah is. Also (now bear in mind I never shot AT anyone, Airforce ;-) ) I definitely got better at shooting my gun by shooting my gun, not JUST doing so in mortal peril. Replacing a unit with fresh troops results in a large loss of overall understanding of what's going on, trust me.

There is. You will always earn at least 0.25 XP.

I don't suppose this minimum XP code is somewhere in python/xml as a define value? That just seems really low, and the leaders I play are Charismatic! I think part of my valuing it less is that by the time my troops hit the field they're to a point where they'd have to win like 30 battles to notice an XP jump - thanks to having 5-10xp from buildings/civics/etc. But its probably better to be something changed on my side rather than globally. (And then I don't have to convince anyone I'm right )
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Regarding Paratroopers: I've never done anything with unit Art that wasn't replacing or pointing the art to already created materials, so bear with me. Is the paratrooper drop a custom animation tied to that unit, or does the game have some way of making the unit look paradropped? That's the important question. Even then I'm not sure I require the sexy animation on my paratroopers

 

[Afforess]

The problem with close calls is that they probably come with a high amount of casualties that need to be replaced which should result in a drop in experience. Winning with a high strength remaining should give more experience than one with low since it means the troops fought better. A unit that won a 50% odds battle with 90% strength remaining obviously did something better than the unit that won the same battle with 20% strength remaining.

But strength isn't the ultimate indicator of battle success, defense, withdraw chances, promotions, first strikes, and a slew of other factors play into how "strong" a unit is, or isn't.

Does dynamic XP favor quantity of units vs. quality? Sure it does. But it also makes civic and building choices much more important, and units that do get high levels have to be protected well.

I'm not certain that the current implementation of Dynamic XP is perfect, but it's much better and more balanced than games w/o it.

Face it, the current fighting mechanics in Civ4 are ultimately broken. Stacks already favor quantity over quality, and siege units have to suicide in the front lines to be effective (the opposite is true, historically). I'm just hoping they fixed most of these problems for Civ5.