Promotions for mounted ranged

[tu_79]

It looks as though G is going to add a new different promotion tree for skirmishers, so I think it's better to discuss this in a separete thread.

For me, skirmishers can be used mainly in two ways:
1. Harasser. The tactic is: Approach the enemy from a flank, hit it, wait for a melee with flanking promotions, if the enemy isn't killed yet, retreat the skirmisher. All in the same turn. In this role, the skirmisher is fighting near friendly units, in an active role.
2. Ambush. You place the skirmisher in the way where you expect an incoming attack. If enemies are on the way, you don't hold the position like a scout, you hit and retreat, hopefully delaying some enemy units. It can be used as a distraction or to simulate an attack from a different point. For example, attacking a eastern city, pillaging its tiles, and when enemy troops arise, you attack with your main force from the west.

My starting suggestion for this tree is:

Harass I-III: +5%RCS, +10% attack
ZoC: Ignores enemy Zone of Control (Harass III)
Ambush I-III: +5%RCS, +10% defense
Infiltrator: Ignores terrain penalties (Ambush III)

Reckless I: +10% attack, -10% defense (Harass I)
Reckless II: +15% attack, -15% defense (Reckless I)
Aim: +15% vs wounded (Harass II, Ambush III)
Logistics: May attack twice. -30% RCS (Harass III)

Cover I: +25% defense vs ranged (Ambush I, Harass II)
Cover II: +25% defense vs ranged (Cover I)
Mobility: +1 movement (Ambush II)
Pillage: Pillaging cost no movement (Ambush III)


Note there's no healing promotions (if you want a medic, bring a scout or an archer). No extra range or indirect fire, either. Harass is all about doing more damage and skirmisher tactics, but at a risk. Ambush is all about mobility and crippling undefended cities, a sort of scout unit with ranged damage. Side promotions are quite good, that's why I lowered the damage from basic promotions. I don't think mobility is that good on a mounted unit, so it can have it sooner. Aim is a weaker version of Sniper, to be available earlier.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I don't care for a unique skirmisher tree myself as it'd be lots of work for nothing, and I definitely don't think Infiltrator should exist, it should not be there even for ranged and especially not ranged mounted. The units are already hard enough to kill - what are you trying to achieve by giving them access not only to +1Mov, but also ignoring terrain penalties? Why would you propose such a thing, to make those units turn combat into absolute easy mode for player against AI? And pillaging costs no movement thing still remains unchanged. Also Reckless is pretty bad. I would take it for last (as it should be), but AI would need to be told it's worse than all the other alternatives and that both Ambush and Harass should be maxed before it's even considered. I don't like it at all, the Infiltrator idea from ranged thread was awful, is awful but it definitely shouldn't even be considered for mounted ranged. Access to 4 (even to 5) movement guys who almost literally can't be caught in hilled/rivered areas as even Knights lose tons of movement there? For what purpose?

Why is such a good promotion as Infiltrators even considered for ranged (let alone mounted) when melee doesn't have anything of the sort? There's Woodsman, but it only works on forests/jungles. There's amphibious for rivers, too. Regular movement through snow/desert//hills can only be gotten through uniques/wonders, so effectively you're giving the ranged units easy and consistent access to something worth around 4 promotions at the price of 1. This idea is seriously so bad, it'd make stuff other than mounted archers unusable outside of flatlands, where they'd still keep up with everything, meaning there'd be nothing but mounted archers and maybe a lone guy to conquer the cities.

I'd be okay with one or two promos being unique to regular ranged/ranged mounted, like for instance regular ranged being the only one with access to Indirect Fire (which should probably lose it's damage penalty) and mounted getting something else instead, but the nuInfiltrator is a horrid idea.

 

[tu_79]

Why is such a good promotion as Infiltrators even considered for ranged (let alone mounted) when melee doesn't have anything of the sort?

Because non mounted units defend better in rough terrain.

I'd be okay with one or two promos being unique to regular ranged/ranged mounted

For this we don't need a separated promotion tree.

nuInfiltrator is a horrid idea

Why would you propose such a thing

I don't like it at all

and I definitely don't think Infiltrator should exist

I don't get it, do you like it or not?

Seriously, maybe it's overpowered joining +1 mobility (in a unit that already has 4 movement, so it's just +25% movement) with no terrain cost, but on the other hand this unit is not getting any extra damage and other than being fast, it's not very hard.

 

[CrazyG]

Harass I-III: +5%RCS, +10% attack

Whats the difference between RCS and attack?

Infiltrator: Ignores terrain penalties (Ambush III)

Didn't people in the archer thread seem to agree this would be too strong?

Reckless I: +10% attack, -10% defense (Harass I)
Reckless II: +15% attack, -15% defense (Reckless I)

Why would I ever take Reckless over Harass II? Isn't it worse in every way?

Harass I-III: +5%RCS, +10% attack
Ambush I-III: +5%RCS, +10% defense

Harass seems way better than Ambush to me. Skirmishers should attack more often than they defend (if they don't you need to be using a different unit class), so the attack bonus should be smaller than the defense bonus.

Unless you can get a bunch of people to say they don't like medic or ranged I think they should stay. I love these promotions and it would make very little sense for both archer and horses to have it but not horse archers.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Because non mounted units defend better in rough terrain.

There's been a proposition for regular ranged to get the same promotion and they do defend better there. If it's because they don't defend there better, why aren't you proposing Knight line gets the same treatment? If that's your reasoning for a good unit line getting a promotion this powerful, then well - mounted melee also get no defense bonuses. Regular foot melee which is (excl UUs/civs) arguably doing worse than ranged/ranged mounted needs to spend 2 promotions on something much inferior.

For this we don't need a separated promotion tree.

Yeah, that's the point. It's not needed.

I don't get it, do you like it or not?

Seriously, maybe it's overpowered joining +1 mobility (in a unit that already has 4 movement, so it's just +25% movement) with no terrain cost, but on the other hand this unit is not getting any extra damage and other than being fast, it's not very hard.

))
It's overpowered even without it. It's a very bad idea that'd make those types of units broken OP. Besides the doubtful rationality of giving two unit lines that don't really underperform a promotion this powerful, I can't see AI handling a ranged mounted spam with this promotion. I can just declare war on an AI, use my mounted stuff on rough terrain so he'll never have a chance to attack unless he also has highly promoted ranged.

Also what do you mean the unit is not very hard? Maybe to use, but they're pretty tough to kill as is. IIRC Heavy Skirmisher has 18 or 20 CS, almost as much as a Longsword, whereas Skirmisher has IIRC same CS as Spear, etc. They're not that squishy, they're not catapults, and are much, much tougher than Crossbows/Composites.

Mounted ranged is not underpowered right now. It shouldn't get a promotion worth 4-5 promotions which no unit can get besides of them (aside from Scout line), it'll be unkillable.

 

[tu_79]

Whats the difference between RCS and attack?

Increased attack only gives bonus when you attack. RCS is also useful for ranged defense.

Why would I ever take Reckless over Harass II? Isn't it worse in every way?

You're right. It was meant to provide extra damage at a risk, but maybe it's too low.

Harass seems way better than Ambush to me. Skirmishers should attack more often than they defend

Well, my idea was that Harass would be used to kill faster with skirmisher tactics and Ambush to be used for special ops. But I guess giving extra mobility and durability is not the way. Better find promotions that are useful in those roles, rather than making an ambush more agile.

IIRC Heavy Skirmisher has 18 or 20 CS, almost as much as a Longsword,

I was under the impression that a skirmisher wasn't so durable. My own skirmishers have a tendency to be killed when they can't flee.


Well, second take.

Harass I-III: +5%RCS, +10% attack
Harass IV: +25%RCS vs wounded
Ambush I-III: +10%RCS, +10% attack in rough
Ambush IV: +25% defense

Medic I: as usual (Harass I/Ambush II)
Cover I: as usual (Ambush I)
Reckless I-II: +20% attack, -15% defense (Harass II)
Logistics: May attack twice, -30%RCS (Harass III)
Mobility: +1 movement (Ambush III)

 

[Zanteogo]

I personally think the new changes to the mounted ranged promotions is a tad over powered, particularly in the hands of a human player.

Onced levelled up with the splash damage and double attack these things do insane hit and run attacks.

The splash damage works fine with the siege weapons, not much with these guys.

 

[CrazyG]

I don't like splash damage either. Once you have 1 or 2 units with splash damage almost all enemies will be damaged, rendering the bonus on unwounded units pretty much useless.

 

[tu_79]

I don't like splash damage either. Once you have 1 or 2 units with splash damage almost all enemies will be damaged, rendering the bonus on unwounded units pretty much useless.

When it was in the design phase, splash was going to be in Barrage, instead of the city damage bonus. Bonus vs non-wounded was the alternative to splash damage in Barrage. Certainly, we didn't propose splash to be used along with non-wounded, but we didn't see this problem coming, either.
I haven't had much time for testing, does it happen often to not find a suitable non-wounded enemy to shoot at?

 

[Zanteogo]

Splash is the no-brainer choice right now for mounted ranged, I have actually reverted to an earlier patch until the promotion lines are re-done (and the defence pack bug is fixed)

The whole full Heath / not full Heath choice is a bit silly in practice also. In actual combat your units will be mostly be attacking already damaged units. I'm not sure what a better replacement for it would be. The only reason to take the full Heath extra damage line is for the end promotions it offers.

Again, splash damage for siege weapons sort of works, way overpowered with the ranged mounted however.

 

[CrazyG]

To explain why its a bit too good, splash gets to activate twice if you get logistics, but always deals 5 damage (no logistics penalty), which is a really big deal. Currently the whirlwind promotion can easily be worth 30-40 damage a turn. It almost guarantees all the enemies are damaged, making accuracy kind of pointless and barrage really good

 

[Strigvir]

And mounted ranged can easily rotate, so it results in even more attacks.

 

[tu_79]

Splash is the no-brainer choice right now for mounted ranged, I have actually reverted to an earlier patch until the promotion lines are re-done (and the defence pack bug is fixed)

The whole full Heath / not full Heath choice is a bit silly in practice also. In actual combat your units will be mostly be attacking already damaged units. I'm not sure what a better replacement for it would be. The only reason to take the full Heath extra damage line is for the end promotions it offers.

Again, splash damage for siege weapons sort of works, way overpowered with the ranged mounted however.

Just guessing. A skirmisher has lots of mobility, so you can place it where it does more damage. A siege unit with splash damage probably doesn't have extra range, so its target choices are more limited. Is it what is happening? In addition to logistics being available for skirmisher, I mean.

 

[CrazyG]

Just guessing. A skirmisher has lots of mobility, so you can place it where it does more damage. A siege unit with splash damage probably doesn't have extra range, so its target choices are more limited. Is it what is happening? In addition to logistics being available for skirmisher, I mean.

Siege units are just naturally pretty bad at fighting units, because slow, easy to kill, etc. I expect the splash promotion to be crazy on field guns, because the extra range will let them hit really good targets

 

[Txurce]

Siege units are just naturally pretty bad at fighting units, because slow, easy to kill, etc. I expect the splash promotion to be crazy on field guns, because the extra range will let them hit really good targets

Yes. I would probably build a catapult or two regardless of need and safely train them, just to have them maxed out for the field gun upgrade.

 

[Gazebo]

Whirlwind was an experiment of mine to see how far we could push the AoE attacks without breaking them. Seems we broke them.

Whirlwind will be getting a change next patch. I'm also going to change the 'bonus on wounded/unwounded' to 'bonus on above/below 50% health,' as I feel this dichotomy will create a more interesting dynamic for players.

G

 

[CrazyG]

Whirlwind will be getting a change next patch. I'm also going to change the 'bonus on wounded/unwounded' to 'bonus on above/below 50% health,' as I feel this dichotomy will create a more interesting dynamic for players.

G

I was about to suggest something like this. I think it could be a good fix, a pain in the butt for the undamaged bonus is not getting it against units with 90+ health, too often enemies have chip damage either from barbarians early or splash damage later on