Promotions for siege

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by gskyes, Oct 27, 2009.

  1. PieceOfMind

    PieceOfMind Drill IV Defender Retired Moderator

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    lol a lot of time would have been saved if some of you bothered to read First Strikes. ;)

    blitzkrieg,
    For all intents and purposes Drill 3 is the same as Drill 2. IMO Drill 3 is the problem with the drill line because it's less than half as good as Drill 4 and only as good as Drill 2. In PIG I increased it to 3 first strike chances instead of 2.



    Anyway, as for that lovely CR3 cannon, drill will improve its survivability, if that's what you value. If you are expecting it to die at any moment, I'd go with barrage.
     
  2. bestsss

    bestsss Emperor

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    ^ barrage does't work like that.
    if you are after collateral damage: the effect w/ cr3 cannon w/ full health is the same as
    no-promo cannon w/ 0.1HP left, save to the top defender.
    The amount of units depends on the type of the collateral attacker only, the extra damage may occasionally help (vs drill for example) to increase the number of affected units.
    It is applied only in the bold part.

    Spoiler :

    Code:
    iTheirStrength = pBestUnit->baseCombatStr();
    
    iStrengthFactor = ((iCollateralStrength + iTheirStrength + 1) / 2);
    
    iCollateralDamage = (GC.getDefineINT("COLLATERAL_COMBAT_DAMAGE") * (iCollateralStrength + iStrengthFactor)) / (iTheirStrength + iStrengthFactor);
    
    
    iCollateralDamage *= std::max(0, 100 - pBestUnit->getCollateralDamageProtection());
    iCollateralDamage *= 100 [B]+ getExtraCollateralDamage();[/B]
    iCollateralDamage /= 100;
    
    if (pCity != NULL)
    {
    	iCollateralDamage *= 100 + pCity->getAirModifier();
    	iCollateralDamage /= 100;
    }
    
    iCollateralDamage /= 100;
    
    iCollateralDamage = std::max(0, iCollateralDamage);
    
    int iMaxDamage = std::min(collateralDamageLimit(), (collateralDamageLimit() * (iCollateralStrength + iStrengthFactor)) / (iTheirStrength + iStrengthFactor));
    iUnitDamage = std::max(pBestUnit->getDamage(), std::min(pBestUnit->getDamage() + iCollateralDamage, iMaxDamage));
    
    if (pBestUnit->getDamage() != iUnitDamage)
    {
    	pBestUnit->setDamage(iUnitDamage, getOwnerINLINE());
    	iDamageCount++;
    }
    
     
  3. blitzkrieg1980

    blitzkrieg1980 Octobrist

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    So the unit roll-over is misleading, then? Not that it would surprise me, a few of the rollovers and descriptions are misleading in Civ (not the least being the Dun's Guerrilla bonus).
     
  4. Silu

    Silu Deity

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    I think we all know that, but that's not the point. The point is that Barrage and CR have zero synergy. So if you have surviving siege might as well maximize their survival. Fresh troops can be suicided with Barrage as picking that line never gives a very good survival rate.

    With Cannon wars (at least beelined) you usually get alot of relatively high level siege so you don't need to rely on the collateral aspect as much as the whack-the-top-defender aspect. No need to have the best guys do more collateral as well since after the first 2-3 attacks usually everyone gets favorable odds. If your siege numbers are very limited then CR->Barrage might be more viable.
     
  5. blitzkrieg1980

    blitzkrieg1980 Octobrist

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    Going up against massive stacks (which is desirable since once the massive stack is gone, you generally have very little resistance to face) would dictate that surviving barrage promoted units is desirable. I see no reason to lose units with barrage-only suicide attack patterns. Perhaps with catapults in the very early eras, but once you're into Trebuchets and cannons, I'd rather have a stack of 10 CR3 Barrage 1 units than 20 mixed CR3 Drill and Barrage 1 suiciders.

    It comes down to taste in the end as each person obviously is able to win utilizing their methods otherwise we wouldn't be defending them.l
     
  6. bestsss

    bestsss Emperor

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    That's the point about barrage: if you intend to suicide the unit, it's the best to take, otherwise it just plain sucks.
    My point was only about the amount of units affected by collateral damage, in some circumstances the barrage promotions can increase that figure but usually they would not.
    edit:
    blitzkrieg1980, the effect of barrage is not so ground-shaking huge to truly matter. The max cap of damage is still there.
     
  7. blitzkrieg1980

    blitzkrieg1980 Octobrist

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    I'm used to seeing huge stacks now. So I'd rather have survivor siege doing extra collateral. Again, it's all flava.
     
  8. PieceOfMind

    PieceOfMind Drill IV Defender Retired Moderator

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    It's not misleading.

    Drill 2 gives 1 first strike.
    Drill 3 gives 2 first strike chances.

    You can basically imagine 2 first strike chances = 1 first strike.
     
  9. blitzkrieg1980

    blitzkrieg1980 Octobrist

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    AH! I see. I read your Drill thread and didn't really come out of it with that view. But simplified, it makes more sense. Drill 2 is just about the same as Drill 3.

    Still, Drill really only has a desirable effect at Drill 3 and 4. Although Drill 2 and 3 are relatively the same, at Drill 3, I there are enough 1st strikes guaranteed AND chances to be effective IMO. But it's only IMO ;)
     
  10. gskyes

    gskyes Warlord

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    Now there's an interesting idea I have never thought of. I guess it could be argued that it is a very niche strategy, as by the time I have the Red Cross I'm using bombers.

    But I can see that a stack of medic I, march mobile artillery and mech infantry might be better at end-game mass conquest than the hordes of modern armor that I have been using.
     
  11. blitzkrieg1980

    blitzkrieg1980 Octobrist

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    Modern armor is good for rapid end game wins. They're fast, can attack multiple times, and unless your enemy has Advanced Flight, they really have no counter. A 5 turn war to end the game makes modern armor great.

    Your strat sounds good too. Modern Armor just makes it happen faster since no counter.
     
  12. Hereditary Rule

    Hereditary Rule Warlord

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    wow - Drill and Barrage, really?

    I read in old threads that CR is best for inflicting max col. damage. Even if the unit dies, the damage inflicted is higher and thus you need to use less siege attacks to inflict the max allowed damage.

    Barrage I thought was posted that it's bugged and doesn't work as intended. I recall a an old thread of Barrage vs CR comparison with testing and CR came out ahead.

    So if you're Spain and have 10xp trebs coming out, facing longbow defenses in most cities, you'd all promote barrage 3 or Drill 3?
     
  13. blitzkrieg1980

    blitzkrieg1980 Octobrist

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    OP asked that once his siege has City raider 1/2/3, where should he go from there (barrage or drill). Pretty sure barrage works just fine (just not for tanks/modern armor lol)
     
  14. Hereditary Rule

    Hereditary Rule Warlord

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    Thanks - apologies for not reading the op carefully. :sad:
     
  15. VoiceOfUnreason

    VoiceOfUnreason Deity

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    That used to be true, but the world changed.

    CR was never best for inflicting max collateral damage - except in the "live to fight another day" sense. CR changes the expected damage done to best defender only (for city defenders only, of course).
     
  16. bestsss

    bestsss Emperor

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    Hmm, after cr3 i dont care too much but i might go for accuracy. bombard w/ healthy cannons (need less) and the rest gets healed by the medic (do nothing). That means slow push and/or splitting the forces to bombard one turn, take on the next.
     

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