Pronouncing historical names

Kryten

Kryten

Smeee heeeeed
Joined
Dec 22, 2001
Messages
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Location
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After extensive watching of both the History & Discovery channel on TV, I have begun to notice that certain narrators are pronouncing historical names differently.
So I wonder how others pronounce some of the following:-

* The city of Byzantium, and the Byzantine Empire.
I always pronounce these as: Bye-zan-Tee-um and Bye-zan-Tine.
But I've heard them called: Biz-en-Tee-em and Bizen-Teen.
(Personally, I HATE the sound of "Bizen-Teen")

* Another is Phoenicia and Phoenician.
I always say: Fo-niece-ee-a and Fo-niece-ee-an.
But some say: Fen-ish-ee-a and Fen-ish-ee-an.

* However, I do have trouble with Boii (a Gallic tribe in North Italy).
Is it pronounced: Bo-ee-eye?
Or should it be: Bo-eye-ee?
Likewise with the Etruscan city of Veii (captured by the early Romans in 396BC).
Is it: Ve-ee-eye?
Or: Ve-eye-ee?
 
I thought Byzantium was pronounced Bi-zan'-tzi-um, with the 'i' sounding like the english 'ee', but short...

There is quite a difference between an English pronounciation of Latin and the actual pronunciation of the Romans.
 
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man
I am also begging for info on how to pronounce Aztec names. Anything out there that tells you how?
Click to expand...

it's easy, you stuff your mouth full of bannana peels and then sit on a tack and in one bust words like huitzilopochtli and quetzaliontl come shooting out
 
Well, do you want the pronounciations in English or Swedish? I pronounce Byzantium different, depending on language. In English it's ByzAntzium and ByzanTeen. Swedish ByzAntium (no hissing). Very short y:s in all.
Veii and Boii I just pronounce Veiiiiiiiii and Boiiiiiiiiiiii. ;)
 
And even for English pronunciations, you have to consider the nation of origin of the speaker. I understand that the pronunciation 'bigh-ZAN-tign' is more common in the UK. In America, the most accepted pronunciation is 'BIZ-zen-TEEN.' It's the pronunciation I personally use, and it's the only one I've ever heard from fellow Americans.

I tend to say Phoenicia as 'fen-EESH-uh'. A pronunciation like 'fo-NEES-ee-uh' would probably be best suited for British speech, but it would sound horribly out of place if said amid American speech.

As for Aztec names, the only thing I know for sure is that the 'tl' combination functioned as a single consonant, with no vowel sound of any kind in between. That's tricky for mouths more accustomed to European languages, which is why that combination was dropped when we started importing Nahuatl words like tomato (tomatl) and chocolate (chocolatl).

I believe Nahuatl (the name of the Aztec language) is pronounced something like 'na-WA-tl', but I could be mistaken. I personally tend to procounce Huitzilopochtli as something like 'WIT-zill-oh-POACH-tli', but I have no idea if this is justified. Notice the English distribution of stress; I don't know how stress is usually distributed in Nahuatl. I also don't know if the Nahuatl 'Z', for example, or 'CH', make the sounds we would expect. I've heard Tenochtitlan pronounced as 'TEN-osh-teet-LAN' recently, but far more common is 'TEN-ock-TEET-lan'. Obviously neither is the way a real Aztec would say it; notice that both pronunciations split up the T and the L. However the rest of the word is supposed to be pronounced, I'm sure the final syllable consists of 'tlan'.
 
for me

Veii- Vae (this is an important one for me, its the defacto home town of my fathers side of the familly, after Rome, of course... ;))

Byzantium- Bi-zan-ti-um
 
Somehow through the Internet with the emphasis on the visual medium, pronunciation doesn't seem so important to me.

There is also the transliteration factor when a famous name is used in a non-native language. A well know example is Quixote pronounced "Kwisoat" in English cf it's Spanish approximate of "Kihoteh".

There is also the tendency for Europeans particulary the English to put their system of emphais to Asian names eg Hiroshima with a strong accent on the second syllable is alien to the more evenly stressed Japanese pronunciation.
 
Me, I say:

Byzantium: By - Zan - Ti - Um
Byzantine: Biz - An - Teen (don't know why I change it)
Phoenicia: Foe - Nee - Sha
Phoenician: Foe - Nee - Shan
Veii: Vay
Boii: Boy
 
They're all dead so if I misspronounce them whats gonna happen?

A whole lot of nothing, that's what! :crazyeye:

Warned, for posting inanely in a serious thread. - XIII
 
Originally posted by Kryten

* Another is Phoenicia and Phoenician.
I always say: Fo-niece-ee-a and Fo-niece-ee-an.
But some say: Fen-ish-ee-a and Fen-ish-ee-an.

Click to expand...

So do you pronounce "phoenix" as "Foe-nix"?
 
Originally posted by Kafka2
So do you pronounce "phoenix" as "Foe-nix"?
Click to expand...

Good point Kafka. :)
Using 'phonetic' spelling:-
Phoenix is universally pronounced as: Fee-nix
Therefore Phoenicia should be: Fee-nee-shee-a

Here is another one:-
How do people pronounce Darius, the last Achaemenid (!) king of Persia, defeated by Alexander the Great?
Is it: Da-rye-us
Or: Da-ree-us

Originally posted by Perfection
They're all dead so if I misspronounce them whats gonna happen?
A whole lot of nothing, that's what! :crazyeye:
Click to expand...

:lol:
But you are missing the whole point of 'immortality' Per-fec-TEE-on. :D
 
I say "Dar-ee-us"...I got the pronounciation after watchin gthat one show, "Daria" on MTV a while back...
 
Originally posted by Kryten


Good point Kafka. :)
Using 'phonetic' spelling:-
Phoenix is universally pronounced as: Fee-nix
Therefore Phoenicia should be: Fee-nee-shee-a
Click to expand...

Not really. For one thing, English isn't a phonetic language. So insisting that a given word "should" be pronounced a certain way simply because some other word is pronounced a certain way is generally a fallacious argument in this language. For another thing, the distribution of stress is different. In 'phoenix', the stress falls upon the syllable with the 'oe' in it: 'FEE-nix'. In 'Phoenicia', it falls upon a syllable without: 'fuh-NEESH-uh' (or 'fo-NEES-ee-uh' on the east side of the Pond; there are probably other accepted variants as well). It's a perfectly natural thing in English for a vowel in an unstressed position to become a schwa. While a pronunciation like 'fee-NEESH-uh' or 'fee-NEES-ee-uh' is possible, it certainly sounds odd and would seem a trifle didactic.

As for Darius, I personally pronounce it 'duh-RYE-us' simply because with a pronunciation like 'duh-REE-us' or 'DARE-ee-us', the pun in Isaac Asimov's Murder at the ABA wouldn't work. :D
 
dunno, doubt anybody sept he knows for sure :p

I've always said somthing along the lines of

ar-ta-zercks-zeez
 
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man
I am also begging for info on how to pronounce Aztec names. Anything out there that tells you how?
Click to expand...

You missed Ehecatl Atzin when he was in the Civ3 demogame. :p Don't know if he's still around though.

I do know that the 'hau' is pronounced 'wa' (as in Chihuahua) and "tl" is like "tle" (as in cattle).

Pronounciation of Nahautl (Aztec language) names:

http://mrburnett.mine.nu/GCII/U1/outside/aztec/a-res22.html
http://www.quetzalcoatl.org/terminology.html
http://www.sil.org/mexico/nahuatl/24i-OrthographyNah.htm
http://www.zihua-ixtapa.com/~anotherday/2002_2003/dec/nahuatl2.html <-- Notice that we are all pronouncing Mexico wrong. :)

Pronounciation of Mayan (only because they're going to be in Civ3 Conquests):
http://www.mythome.org/mayanames.html

(Couldn't find much on Incan pronouciation).
 
I think english native speakers have an added problem in pronouncing historical or foreign names because of the vowels, particulary the letter "i". You normally pronounce it as in eye, but it normally is pronounced as "ee". At least I don't know any other language that has the sounds of the vowels so messed up as english has. ;)
 
Originally posted by MCdread
I think english native speakers have an added problem in pronouncing historical or foreign names because of the vowels, particulary the letter "i". You normally pronounce it as in eye, but it normally is pronounced as "ee". At least I don't know any other language that has the sounds of the vowels so messed up as english has. ;)
Click to expand...

Which is a point. The Great Vowel Shift moved the vowels to different positions in our mouths and made it so English is, to non-speakers, a very strange-sounding language. Of course Darius himself never called himself 'duh-RYE-us' . . . but then again, he never called himself 'duh-REE-us' or 'DAIR-ee-us', either. In his time and language, I believe he was something like "Darayavahush". But I'm going to continue spelling his name Darius and pronouncing it 'duh-RYE-us' because that's become standard in English, and English is the language I generally use to talk about him. (What he's called in Japanese, the other language I have a functional competence in, I'm not sure. Oddly enough, he's never come up in my Japanese conversations. Obviously if he did come up, I'd use whatever name it is the Japanese give him, with whatever pronunciation comes with it.)
 
Yes, you are quite right Loaf Warden.
The name of the Persian king defeated by Alexander did actually sound more like 'Daryavaush'....but you've got to admit, it is a bit of a mouthfull, so the Greeks called him 'Darius' or 'Dareios' instead, which is much easier.
Likewise, we today use words such as Cassander, Epirus, Philip, Alexander and Ptolemy instead of the more accurate Kassandros, Epeiros, Philippos, Alexandros and Ptolemaios.
(Well, if the Greeks can change peoples names, then why can't we. :D )

As for 'Artaxerxes', I use roughly the same pronounciation as both Mongoloid Cow & Xen:-
Art-a-zerc-sees
(but I have no idea if it is right or wrong of course)

Here's another one that gives me trouble: Antiochus (the name of several kings of Macedonian Syria):-
An-tee-oh-cus perhaps?

Originally posted by MCdread
I think english native speakers have an added problem in pronouncing historical or foreign names because of the vowels, particulary the letter "i". You normally pronounce it as in eye, but it normally is pronounced as "ee". At least I don't know any other language that has the sounds of the vowels so messed up as english has. ;)
Click to expand...

Yes, you are probably right Mcdread....but what do you do with names like Boii? :crazyeye:
Bo-ee-ee maybe?
 
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