Prophets for Profits: Ramesses and the Chariot of Fire

The more I think about it, the more I think I want Kyoto. It's just ridiculous what I could get out of that city running a priest economy as Ramesses. A shrined city with an Obelisk can run four priest specialists, and Kyoto has two wet agriculture resources that I can see. In this case, Kyoto becomes our "GP farm" of sorts, running a ton and a half of priests without the National Epic. An opportunity like that, this early, and in a game like this, might be worth punting the Oracle for--or at least being more modest in our tech goals.

I'm going to shoot for both Stonehenge and the rush, which means--I think--putting Memphis on a Barracks immediately. We can still tech towards the Oracle (Priesthood is valuable for us because it unlocks one of the few buildings that can run our specialist), but I'm going to punt on trying for Philosophy. A shade too ambitious. But I think we can definitely put the screws to Toku and get Stonehenge if we hurry.

Thoughts?
 
The answer is, of course, "quite a lot," and we're about to find out just how.

Well, that just depends...

Here I am at 1 AD this game (using same rules)

Spoiler :


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Build stonehenge after 2nd city. Oracle monarchy, and grow onto cottages en masse' (without the ability to run better specs than that in the early game, the returns on cottages look more favorable). Settled prophets since I wasn't interested in spreading a late religion found.

Hill cities lovingly settled towards toku, but since he's willing to trade for copper/iron he doesn't have those so it's not like he's actually dangerous. A good alternative strat on this map would be to just kill him. But I'll be doing that later.



Late conquest. Too much effort to build ships and sail over there so I just nuked them until they capped. This was over by the 1 AD save but I felt like finishing.

Spoiler :


It only took 120 ICBMs produced.

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Toku declared on me at one point with elephants but I had walls/castles/axes/spears on border and AP stopped the war a turn later anyway. I built the AP incidentally. I also build every prophet wonder except shrines (captures) and maoi. Yes, even chichen itza. Later in the game I started popping non-GP because 1) some cities were out of tiles to work literally and couldn't run more priests and 2) I was lazy and it didn't matter, so I just deleted any non-prophets I got.

This includes great generals. They were deleted too. Didn't matter, theo units get the job done.

As for toku, I killed him with rifle/cannon after bribing churchill to declare on him then accepting churchill as a peacevassal. Pacal was kind of sort of teching but lost existence on MY hemisphere before he could finish replaceable parts. Nobody had electricity when I nuked them so I deemed it less effort to nuke everyone than go to space (that, and I saw them plotting war incessantly and I know how broken them 10 turn treaty mechanics are...some dumb @#%$ would come across the world to declare on me eventually despite hating neighbors because they "rolled war" and didn't consider their worst enemy neighbor eligible...idiocy...). So, rather than deal with some annoying AI dow later I sprayed the idiot continent with nuclear explosions and waste and left them to rot.

Alex wouldn't cap after I double nuked every city he had (REALLY? With < 10 units left and no production? You're doing fine?!). But world power average was low enough after i got out of that war for me to cap mao by double nuking all of his cities. JC capped to the same tactic, and then the next nuke spray on alex he gave up too, tripping dom/conquest at the same time.

Toku probably had the best fate in this world...



And besides, we're already giving ourselves enough of a handicap by avoiding Scientists; we should at least be allowed to wage a competent war, I think.

UNNECESSARY THEY ALL DIE :devil:. Well, in my game anyway :). It's a shame our games are so different already. Kyoto had no religion in my playthrough, vastly nerfing any desire to actually take it so early.

Edit: As per usual on most monarch maps with horse + egypt, you can easily wipe the entire continent with war chariots if you want also. Lots of doable options!
 
I'm really looking forward to seeing how this pans out...a couple of people mentioned how good Ramesses is in running a priest economy and settled priests are amazing in the early game but I've shied away from trying it because I don't know how it works once the religious wonders become obsolete.

Anyway, I think Toku is going to settle another city or two before you get a WC rush out. Memphis doesn't have great production so I'm thinking most of the units will need to be built from Thebes which you are planning to build the Henge and Oracle so not sure how it would work?

If it was me, even though Protective Archers can be a pain instead of doing a WC rush right now I'd get another city out asap. His tech rate at Monarch is still very poor and 1SE of the Elephant to the west of Thebes is a really good site for a second WC unit building city - lots of trees and the plains cow. +1 happy isn't too shabby either.

If you're going to rush him now then I'd get Theology from Oracle, you might even pick up Judaism from Mono for 3 religions, with the focus on Great Priests that could mean 3 early shrines.

I'd only go CoL if the elephant got settled - the Writing pre-req means early War Elephants are on the cards and the delay in DoWing Toku would mean more cities so Courthouses/Math would be very welcome.

Can you even get Philo from Oracle in time given the pre-reqs for it?
 
I've gotten Philo from the Oracle before; I did it in the recent Alexander Nobles' Club game, but to be honest I think it was sort of a fluke. That might be a shade ambitious, to be honest. I'll shoot for either CoL or Theology then.
 
I've played through until a bit later than you but I won't spoil further than you've played.

Unfortunately I scouted SE first and then looped round, so I didn't find Japan - or that Memphis site - until turn 35 or so. (Love the "walking in Memphis" link BTW) Kyoto founded a religion on my play too, and I settled Memphis exactly where you did as my 3rd city, 2nd city grabbed the corn/cow site SE of your cap. I suppose the lesson is I should explore away from the sea, not towards it.

Stonehenge is so freaking quick to build, I would say get it then rush. Also, remember that war chariots ignore first strikes, which nerfs those pesky protective archers somewhat. I hate Toku.
 
Played a shadow. 1ad.

Spoiler :
Went for SH and oracke>monarchy before rushing Toku 800-500bc, lost 17 WCs in the process but I've got the north to myself. Went for theology which has delayed everything else but hopefully land will become power.

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Question for TMIT:
Spoiler :
Did you go for theology/AP or straight towards CS?
 
Cities will require more micromanagement to prevent their governors from derailing us through non-priest specialists.

Click automate population, click food, hammer, and commerce, click priest specialists.
 
I know what you're saying, Jet, but I trust the city governors about as much as I trust the game itself whenever it tells me that I have greater than 90% odds to win a battle. Maybe it's just my experience, but, if Civilization IV can find a way to laugh at my expense, then it will.

More on-topic, going after Stonehenge before crushing Tokugawa (or, heck, Toku and Churchill) with War Chariots is definitely reasonable. War Chariots are too strong and fast to be stopped right now on Monarch, even by Protective archers. Alternatively, you can let one or both survive and allow them to settle cities for you while you focus more on infrastructure. Not that many wonders are open to you, but... *shrug*
 
For Pigswill:

Spoiler :
Did you go for theology/AP or straight towards CS?


Spoiler :
Straight there. With all that monarchy spam growth might as well get CS ASAP. AP can always be captured later if needed, but lost turns toward CS not so much. So much :health: to grow made it super easy to get big sizes early too since we have all 3 grains for +6 :health on granary.
 
I hate Toku.

I agree!

Chapter 2
If You Meet the Buddha, Kill Him

Goals for This Round:

* Build a Stonehenge monument that is not in danger of being crushed by a dwarf
* "Sort out" the Tokugawa situation
* Shoot for The Oracle
* Scout the surrounding land in search of nice city sites

(As you can see, I decided to go for a trifecta here. :p

My reasoning was simple and is best illustrated in this shot of the active civics screen I took just after war were declared:

Spoiler :
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Notice anything? Besides the identity of our other continental neighbor? Toku is the only one not running Slavery! That means two things:

1. Toku couldn't access metals even if he had them (he didn't), and
2. Toku couldn't whip out extra defenders!

I figured he'd shoot for Bronze Working at some point, but, well, you'll see. :lol:

So three major goals! One sort of a foregone conclusion, one a calculated risk, and the other something of a gamble. Can we pull it off?)


Ramesses's behavior in Thebes was becoming something of a concern. The closest friends and advisers of the king were suddenly shut off from entering the royal tent. In the mornings, the circles and patterns drawn in the dirt would grow ever more intricate as Ramesses's hierarchy of the heavens unfolded.

One morning, the people of Thebes awoke to find a strange circle of stones near the outskirts of town.

Spoiler :
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(With a chop, it took three turns, and I immediately put the overflow into a Barracks. Not too shabby, and the first part of our strategy is in place.)

Near the outskirts of the circle, Ramesses himself stood, his eyes wild and bloodshot. It was clear he had not slept in many, many days.

"WE RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE!" he roared before stomping off to the newly constructed Barracks of Thebes.

Privately, Ramesses had meditated on the matter for some time, and he saw that Tokugawa was a pretender. No man boasted when granted the yoke of enlightenment, as the Japanese daimyo had done. Tokugawa had taken the work of his own wise men and claimed it as his own. For that, he would pay.

But Tokugawa was fully unaware of Ramesses's machinations. In fact, he seemed just as interested in expanding his sphere of influence as the Egyptian king was.

Spoiler :
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As Thebes began using its new military training camps to build potent chariots to outfit fresh soldiers, an emissary from the distant south approached the city. Ramesses greeted the man and his king, a man of proud bearing. He spoke of an enlightened faith centered around the Christ, and his stories of modesty, humility, and sacrifice intrigued Ramesses.

Spoiler :
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(Oooh, another neighbor! This made a move against Tokugawa that much more inviting, of course.)

In the sciences, meanwhile, Ramesses expanded his newfound interest in faith, educating himself in the Meditative ways of the West before moving towards codifying a proper Priest caste. Even as these enlightened teachings sought to uplift the Egyptians of the East, they would not so easily find wisdom in the West.

The forests of Thebes had been cut, their trunks made into sturdy War Chariots. It was time to inform Tokugawa that his days as a puppet on the throne had come to an abrupt end.

Spoiler :
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(More Chariots were on the way behind this, but Tokyo was garrisoned by only two archers, one of whom had taken Drill 2. It helped. No, really. :lol: )

The raid against Tokyo was swift, with a pair of casualties as Tokugawa's steadfast Archers made their stand. However, the Egyptian chariots had been trained to move quickly against the fast strikes of the garrisons.

Tokyo fell quickly into Egyptian hands...

Spoiler :
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...and Ramesses, in his mercy, spared the people.

(I love you, War Chariots, let's have babies. :love: Seriously, this is a pretty nice site, with rice up north and moocows already available. It'd probably be a backfill site normally, but I thought it was good enough to spare me a settler and give me a forward base against Toku.)

The War Chariots, fresh off of a few days bandaging their wounds, descended on Kyoto, where they found a beautiful little town ripe for the taking.

Spoiler :
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As with Tokyo, the strike was quick and efficient, with only minor casualties.

Spoiler :
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(Kyoto came with a Granary as well. No shrine, obviously, but we can remedy that if we want in short order.)

While the War Chariots wheeled past Kyoto and to the south, attention in Thebes suddenly changed. While the brutal policies of Ramesses had previously led to a sudden creation of a military class, now, all at once, these policies turned to the creation of a new structure. If Tokugawa could steal the wisdom of the immortals from his wise man, then surely someone who was truly touched by divinity could do far, far greater with an Oracle of his own.

All at once, Ramesses's brutal campaign against the Japanese came to a bloody end in the fishing village of Osaka.

Spoiler :
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Tokugawa--who had felt fit to remind the world of his favor with the spirits all those years ago--suddenly found himself sniveling and pleading for his life as the charioteers closed in on his hut. Without a word, they barricaded the entryway and set the entire structure ablaze.

(It might need refounding later; it's one of the only sites that can work the fish. Right now, though, we have better options on the table, and no one's going to get there before we do.)

With the supposed enlightened Buddha roasted alive in his own vacation home, the conquered Japanese suddenly found themselves shiftless and without a leader. The land was thrown into chaos, and Ramesses's War Chariots dispersed to quell the violence.

When peace was at last restored, it came with the crack of the whip, as the slaves of Thebes completed the sacred structure by which Ramesses could hear the whispers of the gods.

Spoiler :
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There, inscribed in the center of the temple, sat two tablets of filigreed limestone. In the midst of the chaos, they had somehow emerged for the Egyptian chief to find.

Spoiler :
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And, amidst the new rule of law created from the brutalization of the Egyptian slaves... a new religion was born in Tokyo.

Spoiler :
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(...sorry, I couldn't resist. :p

So that's the round! We took a little bit to finish up Pottery so we could get some workers cottaging up Memphis. We'll need more of them for sure, and they're on the way.

I figured Code of Laws was the best use of the Oracle for a number of reasons. Pacal, I know, WILL wonder-spam if we let him. Code of Laws--our best path into Philosophy--was set to take a ton and a half of turns, and without Pottery our treasury was bound to run out beforehand. So I went with the less ambitious option. Angkor Wat will be nice, but it's not in any danger, and we have a strong economic tech now to fuel expansion.

We have a tech choice:

Spoiler :
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So far, the religious path has done nicely for us, so with CoL in hand I'm inclined to continue down that route, making our next major target the AP. Monotheism's religion has already gone [I think it was Taoism, which I'm pretty sure suggests China is on the map unless Pacal took it], but Organized Religion will be a powerful means of kicking our religious economy into high gear.

We've got Judaism's free missionary as well; I'm sending him down south to bring Churchill into the fold. Pacal--I suspect--is even further south, so having a handy shield will help.

Here's Egypt as she now stands:

Spoiler :
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Four cities with a lot of potential. I think our goal next round should be to increase that number.

Scouting in the north:

Spoiler :
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I'm thinking that double gold city should be ours soon, and another one right between the cows and jumbos [north of the square where I met Toku] will be on the docket as well.

The south:

Spoiler :
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Lots of good land, but without IW it's sort of a crap shoot. 1NE of the cows is solid, though; maybe that turns into a priority so Winny can't get it?

Demographics:

Spoiler :
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We're doing pretty well, and we'll do better once our cottages come online.

Assets:

Spoiler :
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Workers are coming!

Micro in Thebes:

Spoiler :
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I pulled the worker off the mine and onto the priest to speed along our first GP. We need to figure out what to do with him.

Memphis:

Spoiler :
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That FP is being cottaged as we speak. I'm letting it work out some whip angst on that Worker build. I've been trying to make a point to whip a lot more often this game since it's one of my weak points. And as Egypt, it just feels right, doesn't it?

Tokyo:

Spoiler :
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Needs a worker down there. The axe has been building for a while to free up the WC to go raise some Cain, but that was before it became the Jewish holy city. I'll probably finish up that build, whip it out, and then parlay the overflow into a religious building.

Kyoto:

Spoiler :
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Just finished two-pop-whipping that temple since it was over the happy cap. In other news, look at all those trees! This is a very, very nice capital that can do a lot for us. I'm thinking about chopping out some workers and putting them on a combination of mine duty and additional chopping and making a run at Chichen Itza. I hardly ever build that stupid thing, but it is on our list of acceptable wonders, we do have a head start, and it'll give additional GPP to our most obvious priest-heavy site.

So that brings us to the housekeeping.

Phase 1 of our priest economy is going swimmingly, with four good cities, the two earliest Prophet-fueling wonders, and two holy cities in our hot little hands. Our first great person is due in just a few turns, and another should follow out of Kyoto not long after that.

Short-term, we need to figure out what to do with our first Great Prophet. My immediate inclination is to have him build one of our two shrines. Both are decent options, I feel. Shrining Buddhism will give Kyoto two more priest slots, putting it up to five. That'll be nice, but it might be a little excessive.

Judaism, on the other hand, is most likely going to end up our state religion if we spread the faith down to Churchill. He'll likely adopt immediately (as the AI usually does), and he may stay in it a while. If he doesn't, having at least one Jewish city in his empire means that we can exert control with the AP, which will be--I think--a whole ton of fun.

Which brings me to another possibility: we have the War Chariots, and we have the production to build more. We COULD just keep right on rolling, aiming to wipe Churchill out before he knows what's what. The obvious downside is that we'll likely be alone on the continent with Pacal [I can see four AIs on one continent on Hemispheres, but not five], who has already founded Christianity. Buddying up to Pacal might not be hard--I did it in the Sitting Bull game--but I'd really like to have someone else helping me keep him in check. He's not dangerous, but he's usually a good techer. With an early religion and an opportunity to grab some choice wonders, he can be a bigger problem.

So my inclination is to leave Churchill be for now and shoot for manipulating him to work in our favor. That, to me, will make for a DRASTICALLY different game than I'm used to. And it sounds pretty fun.

So our short-term goals are to tech towards Theology [probably bulbing it with our second or third prophet] and build the AP. After that, trade for backfill, tech toward Philosophy, and see where we go from there.

Thoughts? Save is attached!)
 
I am not sure warring Churchill right now is a good idea. Pacal is the biggest long term threat. Crashing the economy now by taking on even more cities while we can't hire scientists to force the tech pace doesn't sound appealing to me.

Use the GPs for shrines. They will make good Golden Age fodder down the road, but shrines and settling is better in the short term. Too bad no pyramids for making the settled GPs better.

Will watch this game, good luck! :)
 
Not sure about taking on the PRO Churchill with a WC rush that must be slowly running out of steam by now. Especially since Pacal's not likely to switch over to our religion any time ever. I say expand a little toward Churchill (i.e. grab the wheat and cows site) but otherwise focus northwards. We already have most of those jungle resources under contention and I don't see IW in our tech path.

The happy situation is a complicated one. Calendar gives us spices, sugar and incense as well as those nanners (to further grow our favourite site) but is all the way beyond mathematics. Just expanding northwards nabs us jumbos, gold and fur and the monarchy locked wine. I'm rather keen on getting those free happys relatively soon so that we might grow our prophet farms a bit more.

Pacal is usually keen to trade Monarchy and the AI usually likes to get and trade both Maths and Calendar so is there a way we can crowbar Alphabet into our build at any point to pick up the other happy generators?
I think the shrine decision is very simple. Judaism. Once the missionary spreads it it will be in two cities. Buddhism is only in one. Most importantly it will save us missionaries as it will spread to our own cities more quickly. The second prophet probably bulb Theology? Then we can start spending our tech towards the happies so we can grow. Only after we've nabbed the extra happies can we afford to worry about filling more priest slots.

Is Pacal beyond Churchill or to the north?

This adventure is very interesting btw, thanks for posting! :)
 
Agree with others that attacking Churchill is not a good idea.

So three major goals! One sort of a foregone conclusion, one a calculated risk, and the other something of a gamble. Can we pull it off?

Pfff this is only Monarch difficulty, you have one of the best early game UU's and a great capital... makes chasing multiple targets somewhat easy...

I'd settle the first GP. The 5 gold will be better than you get from a shrine for a bit, plus you get the 2 hammers which is very nice. By the time a shrine would get you more than 5 gold, you should have a second GP coming along that you can use for that (run 2 priests in your capital = a mere 20 turns until your next GP). There is the spreading effect of the shrine too I suppose, but since your free missionary is going to spread it to the only religion-less leader out there, I don't see that as a massive issue.

Agree with the settling priorities. The next 3 (in some order) I think should be the wheat/cow south of your cap (a bit of a production monster in the making), the cow/elephant city in the north/middle of your empire is decent and will give you +1 happy and the gold site will give you another +1 happy. Getting more happy faces is important right now.

Finally, that Japanese city you razed will be a nice site for Moai statues.

Oh and finally-finally, I know you want philosophy for Angor Wat too, but you could persue Shwedgon Paya or whatever it is to unlock pacifism and for the GPP. You should build it really quickly with the gold online and being industrious. Just an idea.
 
I think the consensus is laying off Churchill for now, which is kind of what I was planning anyway. We'll let him stick around for now. I would eventually like to own (or at least control) the continent, but I'd say we're in a pretty strong position already.

1NE of the cows comes first, then probably the double-gold, since I'd like to use that to finance further expansion, then the jumbos. Down the road, I'm thinking about settling a site on top of the easternmost spices near the fish. It grabs Osaka's fish and rice and is quite a bit better than Osaka was. The old Osaka site is definitely a strong Moai city, though, and that's the only national wonder we can build.

We'll eventually want to backfill a city east of Thebes to work those fishies. The site I have in mind is 2S of the fish--sort of lousy, but it'll run some priests, and assuming Thebes remains our capital, maintenance will be very low. It's low, low priority, of course.

Speaking of Thebes, how is it looking as a bureau cap right now? I think it's pretty good, but Kyoto is a much, much stronger city overall. On the other hand, Memphis stands to benefit a lot from being cottaged up. I only ask because--unless I'm mistaken--Bureau won't multiply the effects of the shrine or settled priests (since it affects commerce rather than raw gold), so it doesn't necessarily need to go in a shrine city.

Food for thought!
 
Nicely played, you took a risk with late Oracle and it paid off. Your next challenge is likely to be balancing expansion with research, particularly interesting without scientists or bulbs. Don't forget about barbarians.

Research is another issue: do you go for wonder techs (philosophy and theology) or economic techs (currency and CS)?
 
I had some free time this morning and decided to play the next round, but I'm getting ready to head out to teach a class, so expect the write-up tonight or tomorrow morning.

Results in spoilers:

Spoiler :
We now have the Jewish shrine, Chicken Pizza, a settled prophet, Shwedagon Paya, and a Jewish AP. Tech slowed down considerably for a while, but we're doing a whole lot better thanks to priest gold and being able to run a high slider. Tech path was the Monotheism path, then Aesthetics, then traded for a bunch of backfill with Pacal. Pacal's doing well as techs go, but he's not part of the Jewish bloc and is therefore irrelevant. Churchill, meanwhile, is my bestest buddy in the world, so good idea keeping him around, gang. We've got Alpha (to build research) and Currency (to build wealth), so keeping the slider high's not going to be much of a problem anymore.
 
I forgot about unrestricted religions for a moment and was flabbergasted at 2000 BC Christianity.
 
Whilst we wait for The Oz Man to post again, here's how my game went.

To 700 AD….

Spoiler :
Well I found the Japanese quite late, but decided to rush them anyway. However when my 15 war chariots and 3 axemen turned up at their 60% cultural defence capital with around 9 archers in it, I decided maybe this wasn’t going to work. (I did try attacking it but 3 archers lived so I reloaded). I just pillaged all their stuff, razed 2 cities and captured a third, leaving them with their capital and that peninsular city. I expanded to 6 cities by 1AD (including oracleing monarchy) but the economy was on its knees, I was losing money at 0% or 10% science. Without being able to run scientists I just couldn’t get back into it, the only way to get more commerce was to build cottages, so that’s what I did on a large scale. Eventually at 700 AD I researched currency, my capital built a market then wealth, and the economy got moving again. (No-one had researched alphabet up to this point either! :()

To end of game….

Spoiler :
Teched to construction, took some catapults and finally destroyed the Japanese. Our continent was then a great big Taoist lovefest, and I had lots of commerce thanks to all those cottages maturing so I got back to tech parity. I didn’t found any religion but got 4 spread to me, and I had the Buddhist holy city. I shrined that and settled all the others in my capital. I missed out on Chicken Pizza and the Angry Cat though due to being behind on tech, but I build all the other GP-creating great wonders. I then decided to go for a nice peaceful cultural win, which I thought would be a bit wacky to do without the help of any great artists. My capital had over 70 culture from buildings and my #2 and #3 cities relied on lots of riverside cottages and the culture slider. I took printing press with Liberalism in around 1350AD, then teched/traded to optics before turning the cultural slider to 100%. (I decided to get Astronomy too later on, just to give me something to do - settle islands and annoy people with my culture there :D) Oh, and a trade mission of sorts helped too – the English sent a GM on a trade mission to my empire and then offered me 1150 gold for Liberalism :)

Eventually I won in 1896 AD, having taken 2 English cities on the mainland through culture and 1 on an island. The English had 7 cities left on the mainland, London (which was fine), then 3 cities that were being heavily culture-pressed by me and 3 that were heavily culture-pressed by Pacal, who was also going for a cultural victory. Poor churchill, he's used to defending an island I guess!

End of game stats showed most killed units were workers (7), catapults (7) and archers (FIFTY!!!).... I hate Toku.


And this was the most fun I've had with the AP for a long while...
Spoiler :
So I settled a couple of islands for the fun of it. On one of them I was joined by the Mayans and the Romans. Lots of culture builds up with me & the Mayans. Then the Greeks (who had Roman vassals) declare on me, and take that city, so I am not on that island anymore. Next turn I am glad I sent a taoist missionary to Greece all those years ago as I force through a vote to end the war. Soon the Romans lose the city to the Mayans to culture. Along comes another vote and one option is for me to have that city back again! I have just enough votes to pass that motion despite everyone else voting against. Later on the icing on the cake comes with me taking a Roman city on the island via culture :lol:

So to recap, I went from 1 city on the island, to 0 and then back to 2, with both those cities at one point being owned by someone who didn't even have the AP religion :p
 
I actually typed this up a few days ago. Then the stupid thing crashed. For most people this is "oh well I'll start over" but for me you might as well ship me off to Mars because I'm not touching it for another hundred billion years. I'll probably get to it tomorrow.
 
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