1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Proposal: Buffing Brandenburg Gate

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Cokolwiek, Mar 26, 2020.

?

Is the current state of Brandenburg Gate underwhelming?

  1. Yes

    8 vote(s)
    44.4%
  2. No

    10 vote(s)
    55.6%
  1. Cokolwiek

    Cokolwiek Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2019
    Messages:
    512
    Gender:
    Male
    Self-explanatory. Brandenburg Gate is a very weak wonder in my opinion for every type of playstyle. For wide militaristic empires, which has plenty of cities thus plenty of supply, experienced troops, and generals, and by the time it becomes available likely multiple vassals, it is useless. For wide progress it still less experience and supply than just building military academies. And a great general for a price of wonder, at the time when far more powerful wonders, especially for wide play, like Eiffel, Neuchsweinstein, or even Slater Mill just for coal, becomes available, is not enough to validate it. I would consider it the most useful for tradition for vital supply, but again, this is very high price for just plus ten supply, as in case of tradition you usually have 200% price for wonders by industrial. I would suggest at least giving it a free military academy as a minimum. And we can either change it completely, or give it more flavour with spawning a free great writer von Clausewitz alongside a general. Or, if happiness or warmongering system be revised (make it harder to mantain) we can give it -1 unhappiness from distress in every city (from mass military conscriptions which basically provides employment and chance of social advancement), and make it quintessntial warmonger choice, but currently it is very easy to mantain happiness in even very wide, militaristic empires, so it would be overkill.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020
  2. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2017
    Messages:
    878
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Pyongyang
    Although it was buffed recently - the global xp was definitely needed - I do agree with some of your argument. I know others such as PDan have debated over the removal of the GG, switching to a GW, etc., but the only thing I can say for certain (something which you already mention above) is that it 100% needs to include a free military academy; every time the wonder is built, you're immediately following up with a military academy. It's less than ideal, and instead of building the wonder and getting to roll out units, you have to tack on several more turns for something that should be a given. Motherland Calls already brings distress reduction, otherwise I'd say that's an option.

    I think a final change could be kept simple: Global xp, +10 supply, and a free military academy.
     
  3. Legen

    Legen King

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2015
    Messages:
    839
    Free academy makes sense. Note that the wonder is actually +12 supply when factoring the free general. I don't think the wonder needs much else, the supply and the experience are usually good enough for Tall, and a few militaristic civs have special use for it.

    I don't see what a great writer is meant for this wonder, there's already the Eiffel Tower close to it for a cultural path. The wonder's theme is supply and unit quality, better stay focused on that.
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  4. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    6,004
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    Free Military Academy would really improve BBurg. The main reason I proposed that change, however, was to reduce the number of free GGs from wonders overall (this was back when Heroic Epics gave a free GG, so there were 4 GGs from wonders/NWs)

    The main problem with BBurg, as you say, is you also have to build the academy immediately afterwards. That's a lot of lost momentum, but it's a lot better than it used to be, because you can now build the wonder in 1 city and an academy in another city and still get the full effect as soon as it's finished.
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  5. Cokolwiek

    Cokolwiek Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2019
    Messages:
    512
    Gender:
    Male
    Sorry, I wasn't aware, I have not been active for a few weeks now, gf was hijacking my civilization time. Now I am back at work, so I can post. In this case, credits for this adjustments should go for you.

    Two things. You are right, although "mechanically" at odds with the military wonder, I proposed great writer to simply add flavour, because it fits thematically. For those unfamiliar: 19th century was a time when militaries scarcely engaged each other but became national vanguard of science, pride, and philosophy. Modern logistics, modern engineering, and modern approach for industrial organization of military and industry were were tied to military. In US the only engineering schools for the first half of 19th century was West Point and Virginia Military Intitute. Antoine Henri-Jomini and Carl von Clausewitz redefined approach to managament of national resources and philosophy of war. Many military and logistical books which are foundations to this day were written. The art of war and military traditions became sources of national pride and unity, mass conscriptions were accepted, and philosophical grounding of nation states wrested in universal military service.
    Even when I am warmonger I go for Eiffel (I always go for it), it is just too good compared to Brandenburg. It may mean one or two autocracy tenets faster. How does plus ten military supply and fifteen exp compare to that?
    The last thing, I may guess why Brandenburg didn't get military academy already. Because of the nature of the wonder. It is simply a monument, not a military academy. And I have observed that only when a building alings with the wonder, it is given along with it. Temple for Oracle (which is a temple), druid's council for Stonehenge, library for Great Library, gardens for H. Gardens, Mausoleum of marble would obviously required quarries, and so on. Am I missing something?
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2020
  6. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2019
    Messages:
    1,577
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Australia
    Because mass military conscription has never been contraversial lol.
    Yep, exactly. +12 supply is actually a big deal IMO. Not that you would build the wonder for that alone, but with the global xp and the free GG it seems pretty decent to me in it's current form.

    I agree with pineapple dan that the GG really isn't an issue at the moment (it's my favourite part of the wonder tbh).

    Also, great writer are arguable less valuable at that point. When you build the Heroic Epic that's the earliest a great writer is available (kind of funny because you haven't neccesarily learned how to write yet lol). Whereas by the time Brandenburg Gate turns up you probably have a bunch of great works already if you've been working your guilds. On the other hand, I am always looking for more Great Generals to expand my territory and give me and edge in warfare.

    Overall I would happy to see BB get a free Military Academy. Otherwise though I would just find changes annoying, especially if the GG was removed for some reason. If there needs to be a balance for adding the Military Academy I would suggest swapping out the Great Scientist points it provides, as they are not core to it's theme (and there tend to be lots of great scientists in the late game anyway).
    Lol. I love this game but spending time with your partner is important (and hopefully you enjoy their company!).
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2020
  7. Legen

    Legen King

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2015
    Messages:
    839
    Ancient Era wonders have been inconsistent at that, Temple of Artemis giving an herbalist/barracks, Statue of Zeus giving a forge/barracks. People also questioned why the St. Petersburg gives an Order as well.

    Eiffel Tower is good, but so are Sistine Chapel and Oracle for their respective eras; that doesn't mean Himeji Castle and Great Wall have to provide cultural enhancements to stand to them. All Brandenburg Gate needs is to fit a proper military purpose, even if it isn't a warmongering need.

    So far, it mainly addresses Tall's supply issue (like the other ones also do); if the wonder needs more, maybe an instant +15xp boost to existing units would do? A veteran army/navy has a decent chance that a few units will get a promotion, and you are free to train units in a city that got a military academy ready without feeling you're missing out the extra +15xp from the wonder while it's still under construction.
     
    cammcken and Carloshooter like this.
  8. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    7,826
    I could get behind a free military academy, it does make sense to me. I don't think anything beyond that is necessary.
     
    phantomaxl1207 and vyyt like this.
  9. Der_Zorn_gottes

    Der_Zorn_gottes King

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2003
    Messages:
    758
    Now I have seen that particular name been brutally butchered before, but this one really takes the cake.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2020
  10. Legen

    Legen King

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2015
    Messages:
    839
    Like that unit from Authority.
     
  11. Cokolwiek

    Cokolwiek Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2019
    Messages:
    512
    Gender:
    Male
    Good point, I forgot about those. But in case of ancient wonders which need more substance than flavour, this is an understandable design.
    St. Petersburg? The only thing from there we have is an Hermitage. I think you meant Moscow's Orthodox church (former) that stand opposite Kremlin on Red Square (well, GUM is the exact opposite, but its stands nearby), that I do not know what English name is, because in my Russian-influenced country we just use original name.

    I can swear that it was always neu-SWEIN-stein in my pronuncation. Now I checked and it was totally FTW for me that this castle is in actually named after swan, not a pig :c5happy:.

    That was humorous statement, I am surprised you haven't gotten it. You bet I have no problem with her keeping me away from computer. Or not so away... as I mostly play on my notebok in bed already.
     
  12. Legen

    Legen King

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2015
    Messages:
    839
    Yeah, the russian wonder on Medieval Era that eases the religion's reformation. I actually meant St. Basil, I mixed with the name of the place it's in, St. Petersburg, for some reason.
     
  13. Cokolwiek

    Cokolwiek Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2019
    Messages:
    512
    Gender:
    Male
    I am pretty sure that the wonder refers to Moscow, not Peterburg. The church on the Red Square. At least it has an icon from it.
     
  14. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2019
    Messages:
    1,577
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Australia
    That's why I started my statement with 'lol'. Tbh though I am just a bit tired of that kind of humour.
     
  15. NoirSuede

    NoirSuede Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2014
    Messages:
    30
    If I can play devils advocate for a bit here, the current Brandenburg Gate allows Assyria to be able to get Blitz promoted Special Forces/XCOM without having to collect 8 Great Works of Writing (with BB Gate they only need 5 bc 75 XP from XP buildings and BB Gate + 5x5 XP from Royal Library) or rummage through the entire Authority tree to attempt to build the Alhambra.

    Now, the reason this is significant is because Blitz promoted Special Forces /XCOM can paradrop on top of someone's city and immidiately capture it on the same turn, allowing for a backseat style of warfare when combined with Air Repair promoted Bombers/Stealth Bombers that you will also have if you got Blitz Special Forces, and especially nukes.
     
  16. Crag Hack

    Crag Hack Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2019
    Messages:
    140
    Gender:
    Male
    Really ? A city with military academy and high defense can go down to a single XCOM ? I can't believe it, never seen it but if true then yes broken.
     
  17. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2010
    Messages:
    845
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Indiana
    I thought Special Forces only got Scout Promotions?
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  18. NoirSuede

    NoirSuede Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2014
    Messages:
    30
    What I meant was that you first chip the city down with Bombers and nukes, and then once the city has no HP left if you got Blitz promoted XCOM you get to just paradrop them onto the 0 HP city and take it immidiately
     
  19. Crag Hack

    Crag Hack Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2019
    Messages:
    140
    Gender:
    Male
    Hmm I see what you mean. How can I protect against this scenario ? I guess having a anti-aircraft unit in the city is good option to protect against the bombers. I didn't know I was vulnerable to this exploit.
     
  20. NoirSuede

    NoirSuede Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2014
    Messages:
    30
    Yeah its actually very hard to defend against esp when nukes are involved (bc it'll blow up the AA guns), it was the whole reason Alhambra was the best WW in vanilla (technically you not only needed Alhambra, but also either Brandenburg Gate or the Autocracy ideology tenet that gives +15 XP on new units) and it dominated late-game warfare in vanilla multiplayer games

    The only feasible way to deal with it is to prolly somehow get rid of the Bombers or to snipe the XCOMs first
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2020

Share This Page