Psilonemo
Chieftain
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2022
- Messages
- 53
Not sure if this post will get any attention at all, but here goes nothing. I'll try to be concise.
I think the Unique promotions of the Persian Immortal and Roman Legion are both, somewhat arbitrary in their choice of design.
1. The Persian Immortals are basically a professional backbone that is always maintained at the expense of an imperial treasury, better trained than seasonal conscripts, yet dismounted and not as elite as royal household/guard units. In this sense they are pretty generic. Their name "Anusyia" literally means "Companions", a very common term used to refer to such units shared by almost all Mediterranean cultures of antiquity. An example is the early Macedonian "Shieldbearers" Infantry and "Companion" Pikemen. What does make them distinct, however, is their iconic depiction as being replenished so quickly as to be "Immortal" in the eyes of the Greeks, and the fact that unlike their counterparts from other contemporary cultures, the Immortals were a hybrid unit - meant to embody the dismounted half of Persian martial tradition, which emphasized the mastery of not only melee combat but archery in particular as the weapon of choice. Considering those two unique factors, the Immortals are indeed quite special and so generic as first imagined.
Hence, in any historically accurate depiction of the Immortals, what really sets them apart is the fact that they not only have melee weapons for close quarters and their iconic silver-butted spear (golden butted spears being reserved for an elite household bodyguard of 1000 "Apple-Bearers") but also a bow and quiver. They would deploy their large wicker shields, as would Genoese crossbowmen, and serve as archers if need be, and immediately engage in melee if need be, with spear and sword alike. They were truly a jack of all trades. You'll notice that in Civilization 6, the Immortals actually do have such a design, with respect to history.
Obviously, the "Faster Healing" promotion reflects their replenishment very well, and it's too iconic to modify, since even their name is indeed "Immortals". So this should remain as is. However, the 25% armor plating promotion, is rather questionable. The Immortals, were never known for how well armored they were in particular. Sure, the Greeks really obsessed over how every Immortal always had top of the line scale armor, but it wasn't all that superior or notable - in fact the Persians considered traditional scale armor interchangeable with Greek lino-thorax armor.
Considering all this, I think it is reasonable to suggest changing this "Armor Plating I" promotion into something different. Perhaps a promotion which allows adjacent ranged units to ignore terrain and fire over the Immortals themselves to simulate coordinated archery? Or perhaps a promotion much like the Legion's "Pilum" which damages units adjacent to it when fortified. It would be way too much work and hassle to create new animations, models, and mechanics just to make Immortals a ranged unit, but this would be ideal if possible. Ideally, the Immortals would be given the option to shoot bows as a ranged attack that's slightly weaker than their melee attack, and also let adjacent ranged units shoot shoot over obstacles - with both of these functions being explained by a dummy promotion. This way Persian players would be naturally encouraged to use Immortals alongside other archer units (or other Immortals too), and maintain excellent cover for their army.
Speaking of the Legions' Pilum promotion.. it's not that I find the notion of the pilum arbitrary. It's not. The legionnaries were indeed the ONLY unit in history to perfect the design of skirmishing javelins into their iconic Pilum, but what was it that made it so special? It was always meant to be used as a precursor in combat, which would stick into the shields of the enemy and bend, preventing the enemy from using that shield and throwing the pila back towards the Romans. Besides, this, nothing is all that special or unique about the Pilum.
Therefore, since I suggested the Immortals should get a promotion like the current "Pilum" anyways, I propose that the Roman Legions' "Pilum" either be changed into a modified version of an Impi warrior's precursor attack (since it would be exactly the way the Romans used it in combat - offensively before engaging in melee.) OR, give the Romans a unique promotion that gives them a buff when defending in open terrain to capture just how feared the Legions were on the open field. Almost every historical source states that the Legionnaries were so formidable when fought against on the open field that all of their adversaries either avoided it altogether and insisted on ambushing them from rough terrain, or relied on cavalry instead. The whole point of the battle of Teutoberg Forest (which is why Augustus looks so stressed out in Civ 5) was to neutralize this advantage the Romans had in a pitched battle on an open field. If this is redundant with existing promotions.. some other ideas of mine are just giving the Legions the march promotion, to simulate how they would encamp every night to rest and recuperate in relative security, or a unique promotion which simply gives them +5 healing outside of friendly territory as well as a bonus to production when garrisoned in a city to simulate how Legionnaries were simultaneously colonists and specialists who rebuilt their own conquests into Roman towns.
Just some thoughts of mine.
I think the Unique promotions of the Persian Immortal and Roman Legion are both, somewhat arbitrary in their choice of design.
1. The Persian Immortals are basically a professional backbone that is always maintained at the expense of an imperial treasury, better trained than seasonal conscripts, yet dismounted and not as elite as royal household/guard units. In this sense they are pretty generic. Their name "Anusyia" literally means "Companions", a very common term used to refer to such units shared by almost all Mediterranean cultures of antiquity. An example is the early Macedonian "Shieldbearers" Infantry and "Companion" Pikemen. What does make them distinct, however, is their iconic depiction as being replenished so quickly as to be "Immortal" in the eyes of the Greeks, and the fact that unlike their counterparts from other contemporary cultures, the Immortals were a hybrid unit - meant to embody the dismounted half of Persian martial tradition, which emphasized the mastery of not only melee combat but archery in particular as the weapon of choice. Considering those two unique factors, the Immortals are indeed quite special and so generic as first imagined.
Hence, in any historically accurate depiction of the Immortals, what really sets them apart is the fact that they not only have melee weapons for close quarters and their iconic silver-butted spear (golden butted spears being reserved for an elite household bodyguard of 1000 "Apple-Bearers") but also a bow and quiver. They would deploy their large wicker shields, as would Genoese crossbowmen, and serve as archers if need be, and immediately engage in melee if need be, with spear and sword alike. They were truly a jack of all trades. You'll notice that in Civilization 6, the Immortals actually do have such a design, with respect to history.
Obviously, the "Faster Healing" promotion reflects their replenishment very well, and it's too iconic to modify, since even their name is indeed "Immortals". So this should remain as is. However, the 25% armor plating promotion, is rather questionable. The Immortals, were never known for how well armored they were in particular. Sure, the Greeks really obsessed over how every Immortal always had top of the line scale armor, but it wasn't all that superior or notable - in fact the Persians considered traditional scale armor interchangeable with Greek lino-thorax armor.
Considering all this, I think it is reasonable to suggest changing this "Armor Plating I" promotion into something different. Perhaps a promotion which allows adjacent ranged units to ignore terrain and fire over the Immortals themselves to simulate coordinated archery? Or perhaps a promotion much like the Legion's "Pilum" which damages units adjacent to it when fortified. It would be way too much work and hassle to create new animations, models, and mechanics just to make Immortals a ranged unit, but this would be ideal if possible. Ideally, the Immortals would be given the option to shoot bows as a ranged attack that's slightly weaker than their melee attack, and also let adjacent ranged units shoot shoot over obstacles - with both of these functions being explained by a dummy promotion. This way Persian players would be naturally encouraged to use Immortals alongside other archer units (or other Immortals too), and maintain excellent cover for their army.
Speaking of the Legions' Pilum promotion.. it's not that I find the notion of the pilum arbitrary. It's not. The legionnaries were indeed the ONLY unit in history to perfect the design of skirmishing javelins into their iconic Pilum, but what was it that made it so special? It was always meant to be used as a precursor in combat, which would stick into the shields of the enemy and bend, preventing the enemy from using that shield and throwing the pila back towards the Romans. Besides, this, nothing is all that special or unique about the Pilum.
Therefore, since I suggested the Immortals should get a promotion like the current "Pilum" anyways, I propose that the Roman Legions' "Pilum" either be changed into a modified version of an Impi warrior's precursor attack (since it would be exactly the way the Romans used it in combat - offensively before engaging in melee.) OR, give the Romans a unique promotion that gives them a buff when defending in open terrain to capture just how feared the Legions were on the open field. Almost every historical source states that the Legionnaries were so formidable when fought against on the open field that all of their adversaries either avoided it altogether and insisted on ambushing them from rough terrain, or relied on cavalry instead. The whole point of the battle of Teutoberg Forest (which is why Augustus looks so stressed out in Civ 5) was to neutralize this advantage the Romans had in a pitched battle on an open field. If this is redundant with existing promotions.. some other ideas of mine are just giving the Legions the march promotion, to simulate how they would encamp every night to rest and recuperate in relative security, or a unique promotion which simply gives them +5 healing outside of friendly territory as well as a bonus to production when garrisoned in a city to simulate how Legionnaries were simultaneously colonists and specialists who rebuilt their own conquests into Roman towns.
Just some thoughts of mine.

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