(proposal) Create a hybrid Spying system

[Hinin]

Hello everyone,

Following numerous comments about the current Spying system, and its flaws despite of the advantages it brought in term of code optimization and possibilities for future modifications, I have been thinking a bit about it.

One comment some time ago mentionned Tomatekh's Great Spy mod for base Civ V, and I found that, if adapted well while keeping the current parts of the spying system, the result could be worth the efforts.

Here is a link to the mod : https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/Tomatekh's_Great_Spy#Overview
=> Keep in mind that I do not intend to simply integrate this mod into Vox Populi, but to inspire myself from some of its elements while making sure the result doesn't feel overwhelming.

So, what do I have in mind ?

Basically, a two-faced system (hence the "hybrid" in the title) :

• I would keep the current spying system with minor spies sent into cities and performing tasks. However, instead of having to choose a new task every few turns (creating a lot of micromanagement for often meager results), they would be assigned to more 'passive' missions (collecting intelligence or counter-intelligence, yield drain, need augmentation etc). In a way, they would not change a lot in principle, but could still have noticeable effect on targeted cities while being less "user-intensive".
• These passive missions, in addition to beliefs, WWonders or policies, would generate "Great Spy points" (for lack of a better word as of now). In a similar way to Great General or Great Admiral points, these points would cumulate globally, and generate a Great Spy whenever the threshold is reached.
• The Great Spy would be an invisible Civilian unit that would be used a number of times (number TBD) in rival cities for immediate actions with drastic consequences (lowering the Combat Strength of a City ; obtaining vision in the entire enemy empire for a set number of turns, including knowledge on where its spies are ; putting a City in revolt with a powerful barbarian army spawned next to it ; performing a Coup in a City-State ; etc), or in a friendly city to augment your spying network (or some other beneficial effects, similarly to how each GP has different uses).
• The two systems would interact : in addition to the Great Spy points generated, minor spies would also augment the effect of Great Spy actions within the city they are in (meanwhile, City Security would decrease that effect in hostile cities, or augment it in yours).

What would that mean ?

• Basically, the system would have a passive and an active part, with more punctual but powerful powerspikes.
• The passive part could be used in a lot of ways to hinder your opponents in the long-term or generate benefits for yourself (bonus to techs already researched by the targeted opponent, increased GPeople generation in your capital, gold drainage etc). As long as you wouldn't choose to move or change the action of your minor spies, you wouldn't be asked to.
  
• The active part would be about specific decisions. By throwing your opponent off balance, it would mean the moments when you interact a lot with this spy system, the result would be worth it.
  
• This clarification between the passive and the active part would mean more options opened for bonus from policies / beliefs / wonders / buildings : for example, the ability to generate Great Spy points from other actions (combat, religion conversion, trade routes), the ability to see enemy Great Spies within your territory (would be for a World Wonder), the possibility to unlock specific spy actions (for minor or Great Spies) etc.

What about :

• City Security ? => As I said, this part of the current system would still be kept, with minor spies and different effects being used to increase or decrease it and pave the way for Great Spy effects
• Spy experience ? => Minor spies would still keep a way to be more efficient the more they are being used without being killed. I'm also thinking of a way for an experienced minor spy, if used well, to counter the effect of a Great Spy entirely (at the price of killing it maybe ?)
• Diplomats ? => Minor Spies could also be used as diplomats, with relatively minor changes (can always be discussed)

So, what do you think ? I know the idea comes a little out of nowhere (like a Great Spy, in a way ), but I think talking at least a bit about it could bring interesting results. I'm very much open to discussion about the principles or the details. Is it a good idea, or have I been suffering from an intelligence drainage caused by an enemy spy in my capital ? Don't hesitate to let me know.

 

[usadefcon1]

Tomatekh's Great Spy mod is really good.

If integrated with diplomacy and the intrigue system (target is planning an invasion / building a wonder) it could work well.

 

[Stalker0]

I think the key element here is dividing spying into "minor/major" activities.

For one, I completely agree that spies should work more like TRs, you assign them to a city, and they "do their thing". That thing might be getting some science, or maintaining vision of a city, or whatever. I should not be reassigning spies after 5 turns or 10 turns.

And then periodically a "major thing" should happen. Whether that is just the result of the spy finishing its duration (similar to how when a TR finishes its time you get a benefit) or if we want to use a vehicle like the great spy noted here, I think its makes sense to reorganize things under that banner.

 

[looorg]

Why not just build "spy" units, just like you build ambassadors and diplomats (or even missionaries and inquisitors) now. Those get sent, mostly to city-states to gain favor with them. Build spies instead then and send those to the cities you like. Run to the city you want to do things in and activate the yield bomb, get some ui thing where you select what you want to perform in the city or something. If you use the missionaries vs inquisitors thing you could have the spies be like missionaries and the inquisitors be like spyhunters.

They could be the minor things, minor spy stuff gains great spy points and eventually you'll create a great spy then that can do one or a couple of really big things.

 

[Stalker0]

Why not just build "spy" units, just like you build ambassadors and diplomats (or even missionaries and inquisitors) now.

That has three major effects:

1) Hammer Utilization: This puts a whole new strain on your hammer supply, having to decides between military, buildings, diplo units, wonders, and now spies. It would likely require some shift of the hammer amounts in the game.
2) Scaling: The current system scales very slowly, only adding a new spy once in a while. Similar to TRs, it ensures the system remains relatively balanced throughout the game. Allowing that to become full units instead would allow massive swings in espionage capability, where one hammer heavy city could completely infiltrate and knock out other civs in the spy game.
3) Micromanagement: Units require micro and babysitting, and adding a sea of spies to manage would increase this even more.

 

[pineappledan]

Gonna flesh this out with how I feel this could/should work:

I would keep the current spying system with minor spies sent into cities and performing tasks. However, instead of having to choose a new task every few turns (creating a lot of micromanagement for often meager results), they would be assigned to more 'passive' missions (collecting intelligence or counter-intelligence, yield drain, need augmentation etc). In a way, they would not change a lot in principle, but could still have noticeable effect on targeted cities while being less "user-intensive".

I mentioned this in the other thread, but this is a great way to tie tourism into the espionage mechanic: If you have more influence over a civ, you get more yields from spying on them:

When your spy arrives at a city, you are prompted to select 1 yield type that it will steal from that city's yields c5culture:, and maybe ) and give to your Capital:

• They steal a flat amount, based on your spies' level (eg. 2/4/6 per turn)
• And in addition they steal a %-based amount of that yield, based on your influence level:
  • 0% Unknown
  • 3% Exotic
  • 6% Familiar
  • 9% Popular
  • 12% Influential
  • 15% Dominant

Instead of adding Security Level, Constabulary/Police Station could reduce this steal rate by 25% each,

Eg. If a lvl 2 spy from a player who was Popular with you was in your city they could steal: 4 flat rate per turn, and 9% per turn.
If you had a constabulary in that same city, they would steal only 75% as much: 3 flat per turn, and 6.75% per turn​

These passive missions, in addition to beliefs, WWonders or policies, would generate "Great Spy points" (for lack of a better word as of now). In a similar way to Great General or Great Admiral points, these points would cumulate globally, and generate a Great Spy whenever the threshold is reached.

You could also add a free Great spy with the NIA.
You could add a spy mission that doesn't steal any yields, but instead gives extended vision around the city and generates more Spy points.

The Great Spy would be an invisible Civilian unit that would be used a number of times (number TBD) in rival cities for immediate actions with drastic consequences (lowering the Combat Strength of a City ; obtaining vision in the entire enemy empire for a set number of turns, including knowledge on where its spies are ; putting a City in revolt with a powerful barbarian army spawned next to it ; performing a Coup in a City-State ; etc), or in a friendly city to augment your spying network (or some other beneficial effects, similarly to how each GP has different uses).

It would be really cool if Great Spies had all sorts of movement bonuses (ignore ZOC, ignore terrain costs, 5 base moves, etc.) in addition to being invisible, but they were always kill-able. ie. they were a unique unit that was always considered "at war" with all other civs. So you have this game of cat-and-mouse to try to get your Great Spy into position next to an enemy city without it being detected. avoiding patrols in enemy territory, because patrolling military units can stop them even if you aren't at war.

The two systems would interact : in addition to the Great Spy points generated, minor spies would also augment the effect of Great Spy actions within the city they are in (meanwhile, City Security would decrease that effect in hostile cities, or augment it in yours).

I don't actually think the two should interact. If they did, ALL GSpy bonuses would have to be things that can be augmented by a spy in the city. This means discrete bonuses like stealing techs or GWs don't work anymore. It would also be harder to train the AI.

City Security ? => As I said, this part of the current system would still be kept, with minor spies and different effects being used to increase or decrease it and pave the way for Great Spy effects

There could be a dichotomy of two options for spies in your own cities:

• Work with local law enforcement / establish overt surveillance: Reduces the unhappiness and % per turn yield steal from enemy spies in a city, acting like a free constabulary. % steal block gets better with level
• Create a sting operation / counterespionage: gives a small chance (1% per level) that you will catch any enemy spies in the city. Advanced actions from enemy Great Spies in this city have a %50 chance to Fail.

Since spies don't do discrete actions in this system, they can't pass/fail a security check. So counterespionage has to be passive too.

Diplomats ? => Minor Spies could also be used as diplomats, with relatively minor changes (can always be discussed)

I think Diplomats should give GSpy points too. What are diplomats other than legal spies, after all? I agree nothing more needs to be done with diplomats.

Spy experience ? => Minor spies would still keep a way to be more efficient the more they are being used without being killed. I'm also thinking of a way for an experienced minor spy, if used well, to counter the effect of a Great Spy entirely (at the price of killing it maybe ?)

Spies getting experience would have to be passive. Diplomats already do this.

 

[Stalker0]

It would be really cool if Great Spies had all sorts of movement bonuses (ignore ZOC, ignore terrain costs, 5 base moves, etc.) in addition to being invisible, but they were always kill-able. ie. they were a unique unit that was always considered "at war" with all other civs.

How would the invisibility work, wouuld it be like subs where if your adjacent to them you can see them?

Its going to be hard to navigate late game AI territory, as they tend to have tons of units around.

 

[pineappledan]

Yes, it’s easy to make units invisible, like subs. The problem is they can’t capture cities or the game crashes. Not a problem with a civilian unit.

And a human could just ring their cities, and now they are immune to advanced actions :/

it needs more though, but I think it should be possible to “catch” spies on the map.

ideally they should be able to travel through other civs’ units like other civilian units. But they should be “pillageable” like a trade unit on the enemy civs’ turns.

 

[Hinin]

Yes, it’s easy to make units invisible, like subs. The problem is they can’t capture cities or the game crashes. Not a problem with a civilian unit.

And a human could just ring their cities, and now they are immune to advanced actions :/

it needs more though, but I think it should be possible to “catch” spies on the map.

ideally they should be able to travel through other civs’ units like other civilian units. But they should be “pillageable” like a trade unit on the enemy civs’ turns.

One concept could to give additionnal effects when using a counter-spying network on a friendly city :

• At level 1 : reduces the effect of enemy spies in the city by an amount scaling with level
• At level 2 : reveals all invisible units within 1 or 2 tiles of the city (including submarines and spies)
• At level 3 : if a Great Spy advanced action is used against the city, counters it in exchange for a spy level (or kill the spy, if you think it's too strong)

That way, with a level 2 spy, you at least have the possibility to declare war to kill the Great Spy directly, like for a rival Great Prophet or Great Musician in your territory. At level 3, you can counter one advanced action (which means a big part of the GSpy potential, depending on the number of charges we give it).

Thus, there could also be a "counter to the counter" : before sending in a Great Spy, you could use a "minor spy" to check if the city is unprotected enough to be targeted.

Right now, we have this dichotomy between spy actions that really hurt a civ, like rebellions and poison the well, or things that only benefit the player, like gold/science "steal". I think that's baloney. Spies should hurt a bit AND help a bit. How can they rubber band people if they can only help or only hurt, but not do both? They need to leech off the leaders, or else they aren't doing their job.

To your broader point. I completely disagree that spies shouldn't hurt people. If they are supposed to be a rubber-band mechanic that pulls leaders back in, then they damn well better do that. There should be ways to mitigate and counter them, sure, but they need numbers that pose a legitimate amount of hurt, to look and feel impactful, before you start talking about mitigation.

So, YES, I do think a combined 27% of 1 yield type steal from 3 enemy civs that are Popular with you colluding against you is a good place to start. Actually I think a 4% scaler might be an even better place, since everyone can build constabularies to reduce that to an effective 3% right away. A Tall civ that prioritizes counterespionage/mitigation can cover their own cities' steal reduction with their own spies and constabularies immediately, reducing 27% down to 13% with minimal investment. Spies are a limited resource for the enemy AI too, and if they converge on a single player like that, then the tools exist for that player to soften that while still giving enough leech to be tangible before the tools to completely lock the stealing come out in the late game.

TL;DR - it sounds to me like your "case" is that you want to make spies so weak as to be ignorable (you don't want them to affect turn-by-turn play above a noticeable level), but also you want spies to be uncounterable (you want to disable placing defensive spies). That doesn't sound good to me at all.

I completely agree on that front with pineappledan : since there would be ways to drastically reduce the amount of yields you lose by installing the necessary counter-spies, buildings and such, you can reinstall the principle of "aggro spy" (spy that make the enemy lose something). The main thing that makes it acceptable to me is that, since spying operations now becomes passive, the "time increase for spy operations" anti-spy buildings previously used now becomes useless, and so they can be used for "malus reduction".

Also, the idea of making Tourism affect the efficiency of your spying seems great to me : in particular, it gives tall civs a specific advantage by making them both easier to defend and have more potent spies most of the time. On the other hand, and because I proposed alternative ways to obtain Great Spy points (for example the diplomatic buildings), I think wide civs could have ways to obtain more Great Spies throughout a game (in exchange for overall much weaker defense).

For the concept of "Spy killing", I think it should be a very specific type of spy action that would allow you to kill rival spies : most hostile spy actions could be made much less problematic by using counter-spying and anti-spy buildings and such, but some beliefs or ideological tenets could allow operation to "clean up" cities entirely (yours or those of other civs, perhaps).

 

[Closed Sky]

I didn't know there was mod for spies. But it's 100% what I would not like from what I see. Adding strange beliefs, resources, buildings: absolutely not what I had in mind. Resistance in all cities, clearly unfun option for the player and I want player to be 100% vulnerable to it. Destroying defense buildings is also too strong. We can use new Motherland Calls icon though and pre-Industrial spy icon seems fun, if not historical.

I want to see it simple and easy to implement. GPP from civil servants, ability to be useful to all playstyles, but no more primitive gold science stealing. No annoying survival chance, or counters, you expend it, it's gone and get desired result like with other GP. I think kill some citizens, sabotage wonder production, and make city unable to heal/lose some defense or HP, whatever is easier to code, would be enough. In later age or some policy also great work steal. That's it. I don't want to see any counter spies, complex calculations, more clicks. That only adds annoyance and will never be balanced, or implemented properly but require a lot of work.

 

[Hinin]

I didn't know there was mod for spies. But it's 100% what I would not like from what I see. Adding strange beliefs, resources, buildings: absolutely not what I had in mind. Resistance in all cities, clearly unfun option for the player and I want player to be 100% vulnerable to it. Destroying defense buildings is also too strong. We can use new Motherland Calls icon though and pre-Industrial spy icon seems fun, if not historical.

I want to see it simple and easy to implement. GPP from civil servants, ability to be useful to all playstyles, but no more primitive gold science stealing. No annoying survival chance, or counters, you expend it, it's gone and get desired result like with other GP. I think kill some citizens, sabotage wonder production, and make city unable to heal/lose some defense or HP, whatever is easier to code, would be enough. In later age or some policy also great work steal. That's it. I don't want to see any counter spies, complex calculations, more clicks. That only adds annoyance and will never be balanced, or implemented properly but require a lot of work.

Meaning you are for eliminating the current spying system as a whole : no more minor spies, only great spies ?

I mean, what we propose isn't that particularly complexe either, and doesn't require many clicks : you see a city to defend, you click on your spy, then your city, you choose the "counter-spy" option, and you keep it there as long as you want. The "3 clicks" method would be the same for most actions, and wouldn't have to be renewed unless you want to (contrary to the current system which makes have to make a decision every couple of turns for each spy).

Also, as I said in at the beginning, the idea isn't to implement Tomatekh's Great Spy mod, but to inspire ourselves from it : the complexe part about Intelligence and advance options unlocked by specific amounts of it would be overwhelming for many players, hence the Great Spy points system, that would work like GG/GAdmiral points, meaning a simple jauge that creates a Great Spy once it is filled up. That GSpy would then be able to perform a certain number of actions freely (with some additionnal actions potentially unlocked by techs, tenets or beliefs).

The possibilities to add alternative ways to generate Great Spies or new actions is there, thanks to Gazebo and how the current spy system was coded, much more cleanly than the original mess of base BNW, but we have no obligation to go into that direction as of now. I would prefer that we focus on the core tenets of the system to make it feel intuitive, less micro-intensive, yet more potent when used well.

 

[Closed Sky]

If it can work and be simple, then okay. But I fear it's too complex, we can start with just great spies then reenable generic spies if we find out how they can interact to be fun. I can't be bothered to read all posts, there's so much on the forums. I get a headache from reading about global modifiers, things difficult to assses like strange 3% yields pinneapledan wrote recently. I think my idea also gives a niche to England (who could get 100% GPP bonus and 50% more effects to be really perfidious and gain a free spy on some tech) and just not usable diplo buildings in many strategies. CS would now rely solely on diplo units and diplomats, good tradeoff and niche for them and statecraft too. Imperialism could get a bonus to spies too. Spies would be great for warmongers who now can safely ignore chancellaries and CS play forever. I'm against involving tourism. Spies should be slightly more appealing for warmongers and big progress IMO.

I just propose a new great person with four actions to hurt enemy city and science buff elswhere instead of all the spying we have which is annoying. If peple like that, we can try this for one version, and reanable some options after need be.

 

[Closed Sky]

That GSpy would then be able to perform a certain number of actions freely (with some additionnal actions potentially unlocked by techs, tenets or beliefs).

That's my concern. We would have to agree what techs, beliefs, then balance for ages. Why? Simple great person skippes most of this, while delivering powerful, guaranteed options at the very tangible and easily to calculate cost of a specialist. It reinvigorates diplo play too, all good.

 

[Closed Sky]

I've just noticed, moving all offenisve spy actions to great person frees up a generic spies gained from renaissance to be renamed diplomats and be used solely for their traditional diplomat way and CS play which reinvigorate World Congress play!

 

[looorg]

That has three major effects:

1) Hammer Utilization: This puts a whole new strain on your hammer supply, having to decides between military, buildings, diplo units, wonders, and now spies. It would likely require some shift of the hammer amounts in the game.
2) Scaling: The current system scales very slowly, only adding a new spy once in a while. Similar to TRs, it ensures the system remains relatively balanced throughout the game. Allowing that to become full units instead would allow massive swings in espionage capability, where one hammer heavy city could completely infiltrate and knock out other civs in the spy game.
3) Micromanagement: Units require micro and babysitting, and adding a sea of spies to manage would increase this even more.

Still from what I gather it seems some people want to get rid of the "gambling" aspect of spying and just want free yields from nothing. In that regard you could then just replace the whole thing with building one building (the super spy agency or something) and as soon as you have the bonus just like any normal building and then just scrap the entire spy system all together as it's just micromanagement and tedious? I think that would be a horrible idea.

I don't know why people are against micromanagement and such. It's optimizing play to gain it all. You don't have to do it. The built in system does a "reasonable" job if you don't want to. Just build things in the order the system suggests, work the tiles it suggests etc. It will work. I don't see the fun in those tasks being automated. But I guess that is another issue or story and not really related to the topic of espionage and the system about it. But if micro is to hard or harsh for this isn't or couldn't the same thing be said for the religious system with all the pressure and missionaries and inquisitors. Very much micro. You can't even allow them to move on their own cause they'll stand in the wrong tiles and lose power etc.

(1) Hammers. It's a choice like anything else -- build a building, build a unit, run a process. This would then compete with building diplomatic units. Religious units are separate since they are all faith purchases. It's sort of what the game is about isn't it? Making choices. Do I do this now and get something after and forever or do I need to do something to correct an issue now. Is it better to do A or B or C at this stage.
(2) See (1) If you want to run the super spy central that just chugs out spies one after another then fine. You won't be building buildings or units or anything else then. One could math or wing it out eventually to see that perhaps it's more efficient to do that. Build spies to steal the work from other civs better then doing research yourself.
(3) See previous comment above. Micro is a core of the game if you want an optimized experience. Taking that away if dumping down the game. If I wanted that I would play Civ6.

 

[CppMaster]

(3) See previous comment above. Micro is a core of the game if you want an optimized experience. Taking that away if dumping down the game. If I wanted that I would play Civ6.

How about optional automation, like with workers? If you want to micro, you could and you'll probably make better choices than an automation tool, just like with workers. If someone don't want to micro it for some reason (considering it not fun is a very valid reason to) then he could just automate it. Imho it'd make both sides happy.

 

[Hinin]

Still from what I gather it seems some people want to get rid of the "gambling" aspect of spying and just want free yields from nothing. In that regard you could then just replace the whole thing with building one building (the super spy agency or something) and as soon as you have the bonus just like any normal building and then just scrap the entire spy system all together as it's just micromanagement and tedious? I think that would be a horrible idea.

I don't know why people are against micromanagement and such. It's optimizing play to gain it all. You don't have to do it. The built in system does a "reasonable" job if you don't want to. Just build things in the order the system suggests, work the tiles it suggests etc. It will work. I don't see the fun in those tasks being automated. But I guess that is another issue or story and not really related to the topic of espionage and the system about it. But if micro is to hard or harsh for this isn't or couldn't the same thing be said for the religious system with all the pressure and missionaries and inquisitors. Very much micro. You can't even allow them to move on their own cause they'll stand in the wrong tiles and lose power etc.

(1) Hammers. It's a choice like anything else -- build a building, build a unit, run a process. This would then compete with building diplomatic units. Religious units are separate since they are all faith purchases. It's sort of what the game is about isn't it? Making choices. Do I do this now and get something after and forever or do I need to do something to correct an issue now. Is it better to do A or B or C at this stage.
(2) See (1) If you want to run the super spy central that just chugs out spies one after another then fine. You won't be building buildings or units or anything else then. One could math or wing it out eventually to see that perhaps it's more efficient to do that. Build spies to steal the work from other civs better then doing research yourself.
(3) See previous comment above. Micro is a core of the game if you want an optimized experience. Taking that away if dumping down the game. If I wanted that I would play Civ6.

I also don't really understand the principle of making a system averse to micromanagement in a game like Civ V. That's even more true in VP, where the quality of the AI means that you must be much more careful of your actions.

Clarifying the system (by making a clear cut between passive and active spying) and making it less micro-intensive while still keeping a good amount of depth to the system (I even think the new version would allow for more interesting strategies) seems the best target to me.

How about optional automation, like with workers? If you want to micro, you could and you'll probably make better choices than an automation tool, just like with workers. If someone don't want to micro it for some reason (considering it not fun is a very valid reason to) then he could just automate it. Imho it'd make both sides happy.

Automating the spying system (with a button like "optimize" in the Tourism window) could indeed be a good answer for those who really doesn't like the its micromanagement aspect. That said, I don't think it should be more than that : a button, for those who want to use it, not a systematic automation.

 

[CppMaster]

a button, for those who want to use it, not a systematic automation.

What's the difference?

 

[Hinin]

What's the difference?

Those who want to use the button to optimize automatically their spy placement (aka letting the AI decide for them) can do it, but without eliminating the possibility to manually control your spying system for those who would still want it.

Thus, we can preserve the potential complexity of the system while allowing people like Closed Sky to streamline their experience if they want to (and I say that without judging them : we all play for different reasons).

The Great Spies would still have to be controlled manually in all cases (as units on the map), but honestly, that would require a minimal amount of micromanagement compared to the current system.

 

[CppMaster]

Yep, I agree