It has to hurt the “host” civ - otherwise you have to get rid of every building/wonder/ability/policy that already exists to hinder/counter spies. If spies don’t hurt you at all, why ever counter them?
Spies need to have something to do in all cities - the spy system lists all cities. As I understand it, that’s not possible to turn off
Spies need to fill a meter - G confirmed that spies in other cities need to fill a progress meter, that’s just how they work.
It would be either impossible or an incredible amount of work to change the spy system from these 3 points.
re micromanagement, that hasn’t been a concern to my mind. My issue with the current system is it’s opaque. It has multiple % chance checks, you don’t know what would have been the best action to take in the target city 20+ turns before it happens, you don’t know how much gold, science, etc it will result in at that time, you don’t know how long it will take, exactly, and you don’t even know if it will work at all, after the timer ends. The whole system is unapproachable and operates in a way that makes information on what it will do abstract and unreliable.
per turn yields stolen, rather than lump sums though? You can see those and rely on them. And if advanced actions are done by a unit that exists and moves on the map, you can direct its movement, the timing of its actions, and other civs can try to stop it with something more tangible than dice rolls
per turn yields stolen, rather than lump sums though? You can see those and rely on them. And if advanced actions are done by a unit that exists and moves on the map, you can direct its movement, the timing of its actions, and other civs can try to stop it with something more tangible than dice rolls
There is a spy option for that, sort of, at the moment. The kidnap one, all your specialists gain more yield per turn for an amount of turns. I just don't take that option very often.
I'm sort of the idea that I would like to have parts of both systems tho, if possible. I like the set-and-forget aspect of certain things. But I would also like to have more agency in the actions and mostly this have to do with the offensive spy abilities that are just atrocious with regards to timing (the hurt wall one, arm rebels/barbarians etc). They are very, or somewhat, hard to time for effect and effort. You sort of know it's going to happen sometime during the war and you sort of hope it will happen before you actually manage to take the city etc. Or you could sit and wait for it to trigger and then see that as the go signal to start the war or siege or whatever. I would then much prefer to have a spy there in the army to send him forth at the right time.
re micromanagement, that hasn’t been a concern to my mind. My issue with the current system is it’s opaque. It has multiple % chance checks, you don’t know what would have been the best action to take in the target city 20+ turns before it happens, you don’t know how much gold, science, etc it will result in at that time, you don’t know how long it will take, exactly, and you don’t even know if it will work at all, after the timer ends. The whole system is unapproachable and operates in a way that makes information on what it will do abstract and unreliable.
per turn yields stolen, rather than lump sums though? You can see those and rely on them.
I don't think the current system is actually that opaque. All said and done its pretty cut and dry. You pick a mission, you know how long it will take, you know what the yields will be (this has been an issue in the past due to bugs but I think that's fixed now), and you know what your chance of death is. There is no chance of failure, just a chance your spy will be dead at the end. All in all the system is pretty darn clear.
That said, there are improvements to make. I agree with you that per turn yields I think are better than lump sum, both for clarity but also because per turn yields are superior in value (money now is better than money later). I think there are tweaks to security to make its effects more clear.
However, I feel the micromanagement is the system's biggest issue. Its common to readjust spies every 5 turns, its tedious and annoying. And longterm, a lot of the decisions really don't feel meaningful.
Speaking as someone whose first Civ game was Civ IV, I'd love to see Great Spies integrated into VP! One of my favorite parts of that game was the espionage system (clunky and generally ineffective as it was), and I quite like the idea of set-and-forget spies (to reduce both excessive micromanagement and the extreme annoyance of every AI deciding to attack your capital's production from the Industrial era on) punctuated by occasional bursts of GSpy brilliance to make the system feel more meaningful.
Anything is possible, but I have no interest in further adding to the spy system. The reason is that the spy code is delicate, our UI is limited, and our capacity to integrate it into the gameDLL for networking purposes is very limited.
The proposed idea seems doable in the current event system?
All the old spy would have to do in this proposed system is steal 1 type of yield of your choice from the city it's in every turn, rather than a big lump sum once his mission completes. Mission completion would just add the spy XP and generate the Great Spy Points that cause the unit to spawn near 1 of your cities.
Adding a Great Spy unit for the more "sharp" espionage events like sabotaging etc. would be a unit on the board doing great people actions, not using the actual spy system. Expending that unit next to a city could trigger the event choices for the actions to be done to that city.
So, after thinking about it some more, I decided to still do a full description of what I have in mind (with numbers and all) as a demonstration of the practicality of the system. In a second part, I'll try to describe the asset modifications that would be required (potentialy or in certainty).
SpoilerPavé César ! Ceux qui ne vont pas lire te saluent :
Minor Spies
Basic Workings
The Minor Spies (which correspond to the Spies of the current system) would be available whenever a player reaches the Classical Era. The number available per player would be 1 + 1 per 12 CStates at the start of the game. There would no additionnal Spy granted by new Eras (but there would be other ways to gain some, as seen below).
Once available, they would be deployable using the same Spy screen as today. Once selected from hideout, they could be sent to any City that has been revealed on the map (same deal as today), and would take from 1 to 5 turns to go to the city depending on the distance to the capital (or their previous place of work).
Once in a City, they would take some time before truly infiltrating the city : 10 turns, reduced by specific parameters.
Ownership : always takes 2 turns if it's your City
Security (for rival or CState cities) : -0.5 turn per level below 10 (so 10 turns at 5 Security, 6 turns at 1 Security)
Influence (for rival cities) : -1 turn per level of Influence (5 levels => 5 potential turns removed)
Once having infiltrated a City, you would be given a window (same style as the current mission selection window) that give you the list of possible missions, and obtain vision of the City (yields, building list, Citizen distribution and production queue) and its surroundings (1 tile distance per Spy level). All of these effects scale with the Spy level (1 / 2 / 3).
For rival Cities :
Disrupt Food - Reduces Food by 5 / 10 / 15 %, and provides a set amount to your Capital, scaling with Era. Reduces Security by 1 every 15 turns and generate 1 / 2 / 3 Great Spy points per turn.
Sabotage Production - Reduces Production by 5 / 10 / 15 %, and provides a set amount to your Capital, scaling with Era. Reduces Security by 1 every 15 turns and generate 1 / 2 / 3 Great Spy points per turn.
Falsify Money - Reduces Gold by 5 / 10 / 15 %, and provides a set amount to your Capital, scaling with Era. Reduces Security by 1 every 15 turns and generate 1 / 2 / 3 Great Spy points per turn.
Vandalize Culture - Reduces Culture by 5 / 10 / 15 %, and provides a set amount to your Capital, scaling with Era. Reduces Security by 1 every 15 turns and generate 1 / 2 / 3 Great Spy points per turn.
Hinder Science - Reduces Science by 5 / 10 / 15 %, and provides a set amount to your Capital, scaling with Era. Reduces Security by 1 every 15 turns and generate 1 / 2 / 3 Great Spy points per turn.
Sow Doubt in Faith - Reduces Faith by 5 / 10 / 15 % and Main Religion pressure by 10 / 20 / 30 %. Reduces Security by 1 every 15 turns and generate 1 / 2 / 3 Great Spy points per turn.
Lead an Anti-Tourism Campaign- Reduces Tourism by 10 / 20 / 30 %. Reduces Security by 1 every 15 turns and generate 1 / 2 / 3 Great Spy points per turn.
Infiltrate City Officials - Reduces Security by 2 every 15 turns and generate 2 / 4 / 6 Great Spy points per turn. Gain knowledge of plots.
Act as an Official Diplomat ( Capital Cities only) - Provides a Vote at the World Congress, give the ability to trade Votes with the Civilization and give a positive Tourism modifier with the Civilization (10 / 15 / 20 %). Gain knowledge of plots. Generate 1 / 2 / 3 Great Spy points per turn. (returns to hideout if the City is captured). Is visible, but cannot be killed.
For owned Cities :
Etablish a Counter-Intelligence Network - Reduces the effect of rival Spies by 10 / 20 / 30 %, provides invisibility Sight for 1 / 2 / 3 tiles around the City and increases Security by 2 every 10 turns. Generate 1 / 2 / 3 Great Spy points per turn.
Infiltrate Discontent Groups - Reduces Needs by 5 / 10 / 15 % and increases Security by 1 every 10 turns. Generate 1 / 2 / 3 Great Spy points per turn.
For City-States :
Manipulate Political Climate - Increases your Influence and decreases the one of other Civilizations by 0.5 / 1 / 1.5 every turn in the City States. Reduces Security by 1 every 15 turns and generate 1 / 2 / 3 Great Spy points per turn.
Increase Fear - Increases the effectiveness of your Units to intimidate the City State by 15 / 30 / 45 %. Reduces Security by 1 every 15 turns and generate 1 / 2 / 3 Great Spy points per turn.
Spy Experience
Whenever you change the Mission of a Spy, its Experience would fall back to 1. When in a Mission, a Spy would gain 1 Experience level every 20 turns (so level 2 after 20 turns, level 3 after 40 turns).
As shown above, the level of Experience of the Spy would multiply its effect (positive or negative), so you would be incentivized to keep your spies in Cities for as long as possible.
Spy killing
As you may have noticed, there is no way to kill rival Spies using Security or your own Spies. The idea is that relocating a Spy already erase its experience anyway, so there is no need to add a mechanic that increases micromanagement. As shown below, the Great Spy has two ways to kill rival Spies, but that is a punctual ability.
When a Spy is killed by one of the two abilities. It would become unavailable for 5 turns and reappear in yoir hideout at level 1.
Spy stacking
There will still be no way for a Civilization to have several Spies in the same City.
If several players have a Spy in a City, the cumulative effect of all Spies on a yield cannot be more than 30 %. Security
As you may have noticed, the Security level of a City (going from 10 to 1), would fluctuate throughout the game. Although always starting at 10 when a City is founded, it would increase or decrease base on several factors :
Spy presence - See above
City Size - Starting at 10 Citizens, a City would start losing Security every 15 turns. The loss would be 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 Security every 15 turns when at 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 / 30 Citizens.
Unhappiness / WLTKD - A City that is Unhappy would lose 1 Security every 15 turns. On the other hand, a City that experiences a WLTKD would gain 1 Security level every 10 turns.
Buildings - In addition to their effect on rival Spies effectiveness, Security Buildings (Constabulary and such) would increase Security every 15 turns by a level, thus compensating for City Size and the effect of Rival Spies.
Policies / Beliefs - Some specific Policies and Beliefs could give Security in some form (ex. : bonus Security in Capital for Tradition Finisher). Specifics TBD.
As I am not a specialist in term of balancing the security level in normal situations, statistical analysis would need to be done to fine tune the numbers, obviously. My presentation is more about more precise forms of the initial concepts than final elements, far from it.
Great Spies
Birth
In the Spy window, a jauge will be implemented showing the number of Great Spy points accumulated. These points are global, and not City-based (like for Great Generals or Great Admirals).
Whenever the jauge is full, it resets, increases its cap and a Great Spy is born.
Nature
The Great Spy would a Great People Unit invisible to other players. It can enter rival Territory and has a base of 2 Movement Points and 2 Vision.
Each Great Spy would have 2 charges that are used for Advanced Actions. If at least one of these charges is used, the Great Spy cannot be expended for other things (in the same way a Great Prophet with less than 4 charges left cannot be used to Enhance a Religion or create a Holy Site). Once both charges are used up, the Great Spy is expended.
Advanced Actions
By using a charge when adjacent to a City, a Great Spy would open a mission list (nature depending if it is an owned / rival City or a City State). Most of these Advanced Actions would have their effect scaling with the Security Level of the City (so targeting a rival City with low Security would provide much greater benefits). Whenever using an Advanced Action on a City, the Security Level of that City would go back to 10 (to reduce the effect of Great Spy spamming on the same City), with one exception (Destroy Rival Networks), and the Advanced Action is no longer available in the City for 20 turns.
Here is lists of possible Advanced Actions (for Security Level 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 / 5 / 4 / 3 / 2 / 1).
For rival Cities :
Assassinate Local Officials (not possible in Capital City) - Lowers the City's yields by 3 / 6 / 9 / 12 / 15 / 18 / 21 / 24 / 27 / 30 % for 10 turns.
Radicalize Local Opposition (not possible in Capital City) - Spawn 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 / 8 / 9 / 10 Barbarian Units around the City and put it in Resistance for 3 turns.
Kidnapp Specialists - Lowers all Great People jauge in the City by 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 / 70 / 80 / 90 / 100 % and gives you half the equivalent in your Capital.
Sabotage City Defenses - Lowers the City Combat Strength by 30 % and put it in Blockade for 5 / 6 / 7 / 8 / 9 / 10 / 11 / 12 / 13 / 14 turns.
Destroy Rival Networks - Kill all rival Spies in the City (including those of the City owner) and reduces its Security by 2.
Steal Great Works - Steal 1 / 1 / 2 / 2 / 3 / 3 / 4 / 4 / 5 / 5 Great Works from the City.
For rival Capital :
Decapitate the Military - Reinitialize Unit Production in all Cities of the targeted Civilization. Inflicts a plague (effect increased with lower Security, see below) to all Military Units of the Civilization for 10 turns. Increases War Weariness generation for that Civilization by 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50 % for 10 turns.
Reveal a National Scandal - Increases Needs by 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50 % in all other Cities of the targeted Civilization for 10 turns.
Reveal the Spy Network - Gives you access to the position and mission of all Spies of the targeted Civilization, and reduces their effectiveness by 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 / 70 / 80 / 90 / 100 % for 10 turns. Increases Security Level in all your Cities by 1.
Steal Technological Secrets - Gives you 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50 % of the Science advancement for all Technologies of the targeted Civilization you haven't researched yet.
For owned Cities :
Cleanse Spy Influence - Kill all rival Spies in the City and gain Science for each killed, scaling with Era.
Reveal the Opposition's Secrets - Reduces Needs in the City by 50 / 45 / 40 / 35 / 30 / 25 / 20 / 15 / 10 / 5 % for 20 turns.
For City-States :
Lead a Coup d'Etat - Erase the Influence of the current Ally of the City State, and increases your Influence by 20 / 40 / 60 / 80 / 100 / 120 / 140 / 160 / 180 / 200.
Sabotage City Defenses - Lowers the City Combat Strength by 30 % and put it in Blockade for 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 / 8 / 9 / 10 / 12 turns.
SpoilerMalus from the Decapitate the Military Advanced Action :
The other way to expend a Spy would simply be the following : Form the next generation of Spies - Creates 1 Spy. Increases the Experience Level of all Spies in Mission and the Security Level of all Cities by 2.
New Buildings concepts
(Idea for an earlier Security building, to compensate for the earlier Spies)
Bookkeeper (unlocked at Mathematics)
200 Production cost (+50 compared to other Buildings of the same Tech tier)
1 GPT maintenance cost
Reduces the effect of Foreign Spies in City by 10 %.
Increases Security Level in the City by 1 every 15 turns.
1 Merchant specialist
(Idea for a Wonder inspired by the Aztec Pochtecas)
Tlatelolco Square (unlocked at Guilds)
500 Production cost
3 Gold
3 Production
+1 TR and +1 Spy
Unlock the "Sap the Guilds" hostile Advanced Action for Great Spy.
=> Sap the Guilds (rival Capital City only) - Reduces the yields (Food, Production, Gold, Culture, Science) from Trade Routes of the targeted Civilization by 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50 % for 15 turns, and increases your own by the same amount for the same duration.
(update for the Bletchey Park)
Bletchey Park (unlocks at Computers)
Requires completion of Rationalism Branch
2150 Production cost
+5 Science
+5 Great Spy points
Receive a Research Lab in the City in which it is built, and all Scientist specialists gain +1 Science.
All Great Spies gain +1 charge.
Improves the Security Level of all Cities by 1 every 15 turns.
Intelligence report
With all these elements, the main way to avoid turn-by-turn checks by the players, and so reduce the number of clicks per turn even more, would be to put a regular "Intelligence report" in place. This would be a window that, every 10 turns after the arrival of the Classical Era, would give several kinds of information :
A list of your Spies : name / mission / experience / city of operation / security of the city
A list of your Cities : name / security level / security level during the previous report
A list of revealed rival Spies : name / mission / experience / city of operation / owner of the city / security of the city
A list of visible rival Cities with low Security (5 or lower) : name / owner of the city / security of the city
As you may have understood, this report would be quite short early, but would increase in size throughout the game, revealing to you the possibilities and effects of the spy system
You wouldn't be obliged to check the report, but it would be indicated in your notifications whenever available.
Automatization
Some people like Closed Sky have expressed their fear that this new system would still be too heavy in term of micromanagement, so the idea of an Optimize button, similar to what the Tourism window uses for Great Works, could be implemented for those who want to reduce their interaction with the system to a minimum.
SpoilerBen maintenant, elle va marcher beaucoup moins bien, forcément ! :
So, with all of that said, what would that mean in term of asset change ?
Minor Spies
The current Spy system wouldn't be changed much in term of assets. The current system already supports passive missions (available for Diplomats and missions in owned Cities), Security is already a visible system (although an icon to use for missions and other elements affecting would be welcome) and Spy Experience is also clearly visible.
Some work would be needed to ensure the type of mission of each spy is clearly indicated in the Spy window (with perhaps an additionnal element indicating the effect of the mission and the benefit it gives to the player's capital city.
Finally, some flavours would be needed for the missions, but the current missions already uses them well, so I think there would be a problem. Major Spies
A new icon for the Great Spy point would be required, in addition to the unit itself (3d model, Icon, code), although the unit itself wouldn't use new functions to exist (invisibility and the ability to enter rival territory are already well established elements, as are charges).
The main problematic element would be the UI for the GSpy jauge in the Spy window at the bottom (similar to the GGeneral and GAdmiral ones), but it is not something major, like the creation of the spy mission window was.
When used, the mission window used by the Great Spy would use the same assets as the current Spy mission window.
Of course, there would some work required to make the AI able to use the Great Spy efficiently (with flavors for each type of Advanced Action).
Intelligence Report
The form the Intelligence Report would take is still to be determined, but I was thinking about a button in the notification bar on the right that would have to be clicked on to open a window with the informations. The main difficulty is in term of UI.
Automatization
Another button would need to be implemented in the Spy window (something very similar to the "Optimize" button in the Tourism window).
As for the coding part, the idea would be to make the spies act as if the AI took the decision, so the success of this mechanic would depend on the success of the revised Spy system as a whole in term of AI friendliness.
I'm well aware this second, more precise presentation of the concept, is quite long, so thank you for reading, whatever your opinion on it is.
Also, don't hesitate to correct me on the second part. As Recursive said to me, the Event system itself seems to be the main subject of concern among members of the VP team. Nonetheless, thank you to @pineappledan, @Recursive and @balparmak for their support, and to all the members who approved the initial concept. Whatever happens to all of this, I have done what I could to present things in a more understandable way, and I leave these ideas at the disposal of actual specialists.
This sounds pretty great to me. I like the idea of the security ratings on cities, and how that affects things. It sounds like a lot of work, but it would clearly be a superior, more fleshed out system than what spies are now.
re: the great spy points icon, that’s easy. We already have a spy icon, we just need more make a gold version of that.
The events system is especially infamous for its networking issues (along with the tactical AI).
I wasn't speaking for or against any specific proposal.
I don't think Hinin's proposal requires extra networking beyond what current functionalities already allow for (invisible units, event popups, building turn creation tracking, etc.) but it may still cause issues in multiplayer.
If one of the current spy abilities needs some time tweaks it's the "disrupt production" ability. In the mid-game (Ren - Indu era) I find my capital more or less stunlocked from it. Getting a building to finish is more or less a miracle. The timer for that spy action is just to short. At least if you just keep it rolling over and do it over and over and over again. I rarely manage to do it to the rival AI but they seem to be able to do it to me. Spycatching at that era isn't very good either so getting rid of them is just usually not an option and if you do manage they just keep coming back again.
I'm not sure but perhaps the timer for running a mission should be come longer and longer if you keep running the same thing over and over? Or the yields from it should be less and less? Sort of if you keep robing the bank over and over again they might not stockpile the same amount of money in there. Here if the sabotage you engage in the police should prioritize such things more and more making it more and more difficult to pull off or take longer and longer to do.
So, after thinking about it some more, I decided to still do a full description of what I have in mind (with numbers and all) as a demonstration of the practicality of the system. In a second part, I'll try to describe the asset modifications that would be required (potentialy or in certainty).
A very well written post. I will break down some of thoughts on what you wrote.
Regular vs Special Spy Missions
I think the fundamental proposal here that I most agree with, is the notion of dividing regular spy activities (stealing science/gold) from the special ones (lowering defense/creating a rebellion). Right now the system tries to do both in the same model, and it doesn't work that great. Special actions need to be immediate, waiting for 10 turns before I can sabotage a wonder is unwieldy. Conversely, these missions need to be rare. If I can sabotage wonders in a single turn, and can spam that over and over again, then that is way too impactful.
And so the divide between these two is the part that I agree with the most. Now mechanically I think a Great Spy is a good way to do it. However, if you wanted to keep it all under the event umbrella, I could see a scenario where after a certain number of "spy points" you unlock these special missions (which consumes those spy points), and then once consumed the missions become locked again. So, I'm on board with multiple approaches to do it, but I think this specific divide is absolutely critical to make the system a true improvement.
One Timer to Rule them All
One thing that just bothers the crap out of me with the current system is the double timer. I send a spy who has a variable number of turns to get to the city where then I get a mission popup, and then a variable number of turns after that. I want to send the spy and set the mission in one stroke. I am fine if you want to say it takes 2 turns for the spy to get there before I can see the city or something, that's fine....but just have all missions have their X turns to complete, and include travel time in that calculation.
Global Spies?
One of the philosophies that we need to address is where spies should be assigned. This is both a question of micromanagement, and a question of constabulary design.
Personally, I think spies should reactivate about as often as Trade Routes do. I think the TR system really nails the balance between new decision making without creating tedium. For my normal spy missions, I want to set a spy, let it give me yields for X turns (roughly equivalent to what a TR takes), and then when it finishes, I can consider moving it. I also agree with PAD that yields per turn is a superior model than the amount after the mission completes. It's easier to understand and easier to scale.
Now currently we set spies in a given city....but if we separate regular missions from special ones, I think we could take this in a different direction. What if regular missions were "civ not city specific". Aka when I go to steal science, I choose Arabia not Istanbul. Lets be honest, my goal when setting missions is ALWAYS to go for the city that's giving me the best yield bang for my buck. Right now I have to decipher the yields and mission times through security to come up with that number, but at the end of the day I want a very simple number....how many yields per turn is this spy going to get me?. Why go through such a middle man in figuring out exactly which city to hit, when my end goal is always the same?
Instead, what if security was a civilization score instead of a city. Constabulary type buildings impact your global security score (perhaps to a certain maximum). This still encourages more constabulary building, but reduces all of the middle men UI pieces. Now when I want to steal science, I pick the civ I want to steal from, I get the yields I'm going to get, and I choose whether I want to do that or not. Maybe I pick a civ because its the best yield for my buck, maybe I pick it because I want those great spy points in that civ for special missions (assuming spy points were civ specific, depending on the design), maybe I pick it because all of my spy missions have propped up its security and so I decide to go for a weaker target. All of the same decision making is there, but now at a simple civ level, instead of the tedium of 40+ cities.
Now while regular missions become this civ specific choices, special missions become the city specific ones. In this case, I do want to poison the well of Istanbul specifically, or lower the defenses of Rio de Janero, etc etc. The mission still works with the security score of the civ (so that no one city is invincible or painful vulnerable), but I still target specific cities on the map to do my dirty work.
Yield Copies or Yield Steals?
Another philosophical area is how are the yields from spies determined. Are the yields "stolen" from another civ, or are the yields "copied".
I go with the "feels bad man" take on this, losing your yields just doesn't feel fun. Seeing your capital with a massive penalty to all its yields because everyone is ganging up on you is just not fun, I don't care how realistic it is. Hinin in his example suggested a 30% cap. While that helps, at the end of the day, I'm still playing a tall civ who main yield producer has a -30% penalty to yields....again, that's just not fun no matter how you try and dress it up.
If your going to go with that, I think that should stay in the realm of special mission. Regular missions are always copies, special missions might be ok to steal...maybe.
The Missions
So I'm still in the camp that would much rather have a few very solid missions than a ton of missions that I'll barely use. Here is my short list of missions I think make sense (using some of Hinin's examples as a base).
Regular Missions
Act as an Official Diplomat - Gives the ability to trade Votes with the Civilization and give a positive Tourism modifier with the Civilization (10 / 15 / 20 %). Generates double the number of spy points (2 * Y) as a normal mission (I like the idea that your trading short terms spy gains for more spy points to be used in bigger operations, that creates a nice trade off).
Academic Espionage - Gain X science and Y spy points per turn.
Counterfeit Currency - Gain X gold and Y spy points per turn.
Propaganda (Cs only): Gain X influence per turn.
Cultivate Patriotism (bad name) - Placed in own civilization. Gain A% more GPP, Reduce Needs by B%, increase security by X. Gain Z spy points per turn (lower than standard mission).
Special Missions (consumes X spy points when used).
Sabotage City Defenses: Targetted city is treated as blockaded for 5 turns (honestly blockade is a very very strong debuff, I don't think anymore than that is really needed, it makes cities much easier to take already).
Sabotage Wonder: Reduce current wonder production by X hammers in city.
Infiltrate Civ: Gain sight into all of civs cities for 30 turns (this one assumes the more global security system I proposed above. We would no longer have spies getting local sight on one city, but you could do a missions to get it in a much bigger way).
Incite Rebellion: Creates barbs around city.
Poison Well: Target city loses 2 population (I feel like special missions should have immediate impacts, instead of a slow burn). A hospital prevents this mission from taking place.
Steal Great Work
Coup (CS only): Increase your influence by X, CS ally loses X influence.
The Role of Security
Another area I agree with PAD and some of what Hinin wrote, I like the idea that security reduces your yields rather than changes the length of the mission. Mission length creates weirdness and complexity. I would much rather have it that my gains are reduced by X amount before the security of the civ is Y. This can also increase the amount of spy points it takes to do special missions (I would not change the amount of spy points gained, leave that consistent, and only effect the spend cost).
what inevitably happens is that multiple civs gang up on a big civ and suddenly you have -30% to all yields in your main cities, which is simply not fun for a player.
Are you really okay with your TALL capital having a -30% on yields? Because that WILL happen if you allow a system where spies can stack and apply negative penalties. Even if its not -30%, is a -15% to your science capital okay?
I just want to clarify, and raise the point that you have repeatedly played this slight of hand of turning 1 yield type into ALL yields. I can't tell if you are confusing yourself or are deliberately strawmanning.
The proposal is that a spy steals 1 yield type at a time. In order to have -30% to Yields in a city, you would need 2 spies for each of the 6 yield types that a city can produce, all working at maximum capacity of -15% each. That would take at least 12 spies from 12 unique civilizations inside a single city, but you talk like it would only take 1 or 2. In a standard 8-player game, it would not be possible to put more than 7 enemy spies in a single city.
However, I do worry that it may lead to a bunch of "I have X amount of yields reduced from my Capital and I have no idea why" concerns. Is there a UI that will explain this? Is it possible to force engagement with spies before you go to the next turn, like policies or techs?
I just want to clarify, and raise the point that you have repeatedly played this slight of hand of turning 1 yield type into ALL yields. I can't tell if you are confusing yourself or are deliberately strawmanning.
Fair point that its only one yield, but my point still stands. -30% to science or culture....that's brutal. In a Tall civ, -30% to culture could be like -20% to my entire civs culture output. Doesn't matter if its one yield or several, its still an incredible penalty to be laying on to a civ due to dogpiling. And what the current spy system has taught me, the AI absolutely knows how to dogpile, and they do it quite frequently when I'm ahead. I have no desire to get beaten up by spies for half of the game.
Fair point that its only one yield, but my point still stands. -30% to science or culture....that's brutal. In a Tall civ, -30% to culture could be like -20% to my entire civs culture output. Doesn't matter if its one yield or several, its still an incredible penalty to be laying on to a civ due to dogpiling. And what the current spy system has taught me, the AI absolutely knows how to dogpile, and they do it quite frequently when I'm ahead. I have no desire to get beaten up by spies for half of the game.
What do you mean it doesn't matter if it's one yield or several? It's 12 spies in the 1st case and only 2 spies in the 2nd one. That's a huge difference.
I think that stealing is better than just copying here, to actually harm a civ, not to just produce yields for yourself. That way all players (and AI should to) would care much more to not be spied on and anty-spy buildings would matter much more. Otherwise, why would I even care if a civ that is behind get more yields if it doesn't harm me? But surely, I would care if I were actually loosing yields.
Maybe the -30% is not the perfect value, it all could be tweaked.
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12 CStates at the start of the game. There would no additionnal Spy granted by new Eras (but there would be other ways to gain some, as seen below).
Ownership : always takes 2 turns if it's your City
Security (for rival or CState cities) : -0.5 turn per level below 10 (so 10 turns at 5 Security, 6 turns at 1 Security)
Influence (for rival cities) : -1 turn per level of Influence (5 levels => 5 potential turns removed)
rival Cities :
Food by 5 / 10 / 15 %, and provides a set amount to your 
Capital, scaling with Era. Reduces 
Great Spy points per turn.
Production by 5 / 10 / 15 %, and provides a set amount to your 
Gold by 5 / 10 / 15 %, and provides a set amount to your 
Culture by 5 / 10 / 15 %, and provides a set amount to your 
Science by 5 / 10 / 15 %, and provides a set amount to your 
Faith by 5 / 10 / 15 % and Main Religion pressure by 10 / 20 / 30 %. Reduces 
Needs by 5 / 10 / 15 % and increases 
Influence and decreases the one of other Civilizations by 0.5 / 1 / 1.5 every turn in the 
City Size - Starting at 10 
WLTKD - A City that is 
Movement Points and 2 Vision.
Barbarian Units around the City and put it in 
Resistance for 3 turns.
Combat Strength by 30 % and put it in 
Great Works from the City.
TR and +1 Spy
