(proposal) Create a hybrid Spying system

[Recursive]

Adjustments to the spy system are coming soon.

 

[Gazebo]

Im back! I’ll provide a change log. The hits are:

• spies now earn experience for actions, making their leveling process more gradual. Leveling speed and XP gain is all editable in XML so we can tweak the speed.
  
• Removed all the instant yield stuff from spy actions as-is
• Removed the potential scaling for event potency, as it caused UI inconsistencies
• Overhauled the notification system for spies, fixing a bunch of missing text and making the pop ups/ notifications provide better info. Also a new unique icon for spy missions (no longer the generic exclamation mark)
• Added a new spy yield system: siphon yields. Instead of arbitrary yield amounts, there are now spy missions that siphon and steal Tourism, Science, or Gold. Currently at 10% of target city production (30 turn duration, with a minimum of 1 per turn. At the end of the mission, the siphoned yields are stolen from the city and given to the spy owner. So yes, it actually steals, but the % nature means it is always proportional to the target city’s output.
  
• Added another spy mission, ‘Stoke’, which makes your spy increase a city’s yield unhappiness for a duration after the event completes. Useful for targeting cities that are already unhappy or on the edge.
  
• Counterspies are more effective at identifying spies.

Edit: biggest testing point will be the % of siphon. Right now it is 10% for each type (Gold, Science, or Tourism), which may be too low. We'll see.

Biggest early game impact is actually on England, as her early spy can only reveal area around a city as its action (and view the city). This means that early England as a neighbor isn't as mind-numbingly frustrating, as she's just getting visual recon on you...at least until your city is bigger!

Edit edit: The design decision behind siphon for those three yields is:
1.) Gold - as an alternative to trading via diplomacy (in which gold is the primary transaction method), being able to just siphon gold with spies feels right. It isn't arbitrary now, so the amount makes sense relative to the spy's location. It also means that high-potential targets, though higher gold output most likely, may also take long enough to do that it isn't as worthwhile.
2.) Science - until you can steal techs later on, being able to siphon science is a decently small rubberband mechanic (or, if you're in the lead already, a nice gap adjuster). And since civs further ahead have more science, this benefits backwards civs more than others).
3.) Tourism - there aren't a lot of tourism catch-up mechanics, so this will be a useful tool for the aggressive culture victory.

Again, % numbers are key here. I started with 10% for testing, but I can definitely see 25% or more for the Tourism and Science ones.

 

[usadefcon1]

Im back!

Welcome back

Just my initial thoughts without play testing, I love that yields are actually lost, but other then leaving a spy at home there needs to be another defense.

Perhaps a counterspy project any city can run for a few turns.

Edit: It might make sense to to steal tourism but get culture

 

[Recursive]

Im back! I’ll provide a change log. The hits are:

• spies now earn experience for actions, making their leveling process more gradual. Leveling speed and XP gain is all editable in XML so we can tweak the speed.
  
• Removed all the instant yield stuff from spy actions as-is
• Removed the potential scaling for event potency, as it caused UI inconsistencies
• Overhauled the notification system for spies, fixing a bunch of missing text and making the pop ups/ notifications provide better info. Also a new unique icon for spy missions (no longer the generic exclamation mark)
• Added a new spy yield system: siphon yields. Instead of arbitrary yield amounts, there are now spy missions that siphon and steal Tourism, Science, or Gold. Currently at 10% of target city production (30 turn duration, with a minimum of 1 per turn. At the end of the mission, the siphoned yields are stolen from the city and given to the spy owner. So yes, it actually steals, but the % nature means it is always proportional to the target city’s output.
  
• Added another spy mission, ‘Stoke’, which makes your spy increase a city’s yield unhappiness for a duration after the event completes. Useful for targeting cities that are already unhappy or on the edge.
  
• Counterspies are more effective at identifying spies.

Edit: biggest testing point will be the % of siphon. Right now it is 10% for each type (Gold, Science, or Tourism), which may be too low. We'll see.

Biggest early game impact is actually on England, as her early spy can only reveal area around a city as its action (and view the city). This means that early England as a neighbor isn't as mind-numbingly frustrating, as she's just getting visual recon on you...at least until your city is bigger!

Edit edit: The design decision behind siphon for those three yields is:
1.) Gold - as an alternative to trading via diplomacy (in which gold is the primary transaction method), being able to just siphon gold with spies feels right. It isn't arbitrary now, so the amount makes sense relative to the spy's location. It also means that high-potential targets, though higher gold output most likely, may also take long enough to do that it isn't as worthwhile.
2.) Science - until you can steal techs later on, being able to siphon science is a decently small rubberband mechanic (or, if you're in the lead already, a nice gap adjuster). And since civs further ahead have more science, this benefits backwards civs more than others).
3.) Tourism - there aren't a lot of tourism catch-up mechanics, so this will be a useful tool for the aggressive culture victory.

Again, % numbers are key here. I started with 10% for testing, but I can definitely see 25% or more for the Tourism and Science ones.

Concern right off the bat: If spies from 10 civs entered a city (and it is not uncommon for a leading warmonger/city-state leader/etc. to be ganged up on) they would receive 100% of its Gold, Tourism or Science output. At 25% this would only require 4 civs.

 

[Gazebo]

Concern right off the bat: If spies from 10 civs entered a city (and it is not uncommon for a leading warmonger/city-state leader/etc. to be ganged up on) they would receive 100% of its Gold, Tourism or Science output. At 25% this would only require 4 civs.

two spies can’t do the same action in a city, so there’s no dog piling

 

[CppMaster]

two spies can’t do the same action in a city, so there’s no dog piling

They can't? So another player can basically block me from spying in a city? That's a new.

 

[Rekk]

They can't? So another player can basically block me from spying in a city? That's a new.

No, another player can stop you from (eg) stealing gold specifically. This has been the case for a long time.

 

[Gazebo]

They can't? So another player can basically block me from spying in a city? That's a new.

no, they can just block you from doing an action, say gold theft, in a city.

 

[Zanteogo]

• Spies can transfer AND settle to a city with as minimum a time as possible (ideally 0-1 turns, however short is possible).

Not sure why this would be important. A problem with this is one of the very few advantages of tourism is that civ's you have influence over is your spies settle time is faster. It's not a big bonus, but at least it's something.

• Steal yield missions are now "infinite time" (if possible), aka they never expire. Yields are gained each turn (if possible) based on current city security level. Security level for the city increases by X per turn instead of a massive amount all at the end.

Yes, 100% agree with this. Though it merges in with your next point, we need to have a separate major/minor spy mission types. Minor give a small bonus each turn, but have a low chance of being caught while major have a massive effect, but high chance of being caught.

Edit: Looks like Gazebo is adding in the minor mission yields over time, but rather than collecting them each turn (which I think is better), you collect them all at the end of the mission?

• Other more aggressive missions automatically kill the spy. Spies come back in X turns (if this is adjustable to the mission great, if not, we pick a suitably large number of turns to make these missions powerful, but rare).

I don't think they should automatically kill, but just have a much higher chance of it happening. I like the idea though. Again, we can have major and minor spy missions. I think spy killed return delay rates should be increased, as spies return WAY too quickly now.

• Counterspies give the bonuses they do now, but perhaps has a 5% chance per turn of killing a spy in the city. Or...if security level cannot be increased by these new steal yield missions, counterspies could be the way to boost security in a city to reduce those effects.

All I can say is that currently, defensive spies are horrible at actually being defensive spies right now. Their "secondary" effect is alright, but they HARDLY ever catch spies.

 

[Zanteogo]

no, they can just block you from doing an action, say gold theft, in a city.

Is it possible to allow two spies to both do the same mission, but just with a less return for both spies?

Example:

1 spy receives 10% (each turn)
2 spies receive 15% in total (each turn, split)
3 spies receive 18% in total
4 spies receive 20% in total
5 spies or more receive 21% in total

 

[Gazebo]

Is it possible to allow two spies to both do the same mission, but just with a less return for both spies?

Example:

1 spy receives 10% (each turn)
2 spies receive 15% in total (each turn, split)
3 spies receive 18% in total
4 spies receive 20% in total
5 spies or more receive 21% in total

No, as you'd be adjusting the UI on the fly for the outcome for both spies and that would be confusing for the initial player. Better to make it a limited action.

G

 

[Zanteogo]

No, as you'd be adjusting the UI on the fly for the outcome for both spies and that would be confusing for the initial player. Better to make it a limited action.

G

But wouldn't the player only see the per turn or end of mission amount? If I see that my spy took 40 gold or took 35 gold if I wouldn't really know the difference unless I did the math. (and if it's only showing at the END of mission, good luck, as the city output would likely change turn to turn)

Either way, if I went hardcore and did the math, it would just be a signal that another spy happened to be doing the same mission. I'm not understanding what would be confusing with this.

I mean, if you guys want to go so far as to note that the returns were reduced due to competing spies you can.. but I honestly don't think anyone would notice.

 

[Gazebo]

But wouldn't the player only see the per turn or end of mission amount? If I see that my spy took 40 gold or took 35 gold if I wouldn't really know the difference unless I did the math. (and if it's only showing at the END of mission, good luck, as the city output would likely change turn to turn)

Either way, if I went hardcore and did the math, it would just be a signal that another spy happened to be doing the same mission. I'm not understanding what would be confusing with this.

I mean, if you guys want to go so far as to note that the returns were reduced due to competing spies you can.. but I honestly don't think anyone would notice.

People would notice. Not gonna happen. Too confusing.

 

[Zanteogo]

People would notice. Not gonna happen. Too confusing.

Even if you put in the notification *Yields may have been reduced due to competing agents* ?

In addition, even if they did notice change and even if they didn't see the above addendum, what would it matter?

VP is full of "higher rules" and is less dumbed down than vanilla. It's something I like about it. The happiness system for example.

Seems like an extreme solution to block more than one spy doing the same task in the same city because the end result will be slightly different and might have a couple people pop up on this message board and ask for clarification. We see this occur all the time and there are dozens of people here more than happy to help.

 

[Gazebo]

Even if you put in the notification *Yields may have been reduced due to competing agents* ?

In addition, even if they did notice change and even if they didn't see the above addendum, what would it matter?

VP is full of "higher rules" and is less dumbed down than vanilla. It's something I like about it. The happiness system for example.

Seems like an extreme solution to block more than one spy doing the same task in the same city because the end result will be slightly different and might have a couple people pop up on this message board and ask for clarification. We see this occur all the time and there are dozens of people here more than happy to help.

We already do that. World Congress proposals don’t allow you to propose a weaker version of an existing proposal, they just don’t let you do it. Same with world wonders, projects, etc. etc. Having things disable because someone else has done it first is totally within the scope of the game.

 

[Stalker0]

Added a new spy yield system: siphon yields. Instead of arbitrary yield amounts, there are now spy missions that siphon and steal Tourism, Science, or Gold. Currently at 10% of target city production (30 turn duration, with a minimum of 1 per turn. At the end of the mission, the siphoned yields are stolen from the city and given to the spy owner. So yes, it actually steals, but the % nature means it is always proportional to the target city’s output.

So need a few clarifications here:

• For the 30 turns, so I feel a steal each round, or is it only at the very end of the duration? You noted both a minimum per turn and an end of the mission value, hence my confusion.
• Are their 3 siphon missions, or one siphon mission where I pick a yield as part of the mission? Basically I'm curious if 3 spies can be in my city siphoning 3 yield types, or is it only 1.
• What impact (if any) does security have on the steals?

 

[Stalker0]

Not sure why this would be important. A problem with this is one of the very few advantages of tourism is that civ's you have influence over is your spies settle time is faster. It's not a big bonus, but at least it's something.

The relevance is around "attack" missions like damaging city defenses. Right now these missions are too slow to be effective, I don't need defenses blown up in 10 turns, I need them now as my army advances. If spies had a very minimal travel/settle time, these types of missions become more effective and actually usable.

Frankly the spy benefit from tourism is flavor text to me. I have never ever ever pushed my tourism to get faster spies.

 

[Rekk]

Frankly the spy benefit from tourism is flavor text to me. I have never ever ever pushed my tourism to get faster spies.

It's meant specifically to beat benefit for civs with high tourism. I disagree with removing it.

If you're ignoring tourism, that's on you.

I agree that travel time should always be one turn, though .

 

[CppMaster]

If you're ignoring tourism, that's on you.

Isn't it better to ignore tourism if you don't pursue cultural victory? It seems to have little benefit outside that.

 

[Gazebo]

So need a few clarifications here:

• For the 30 turns, so I feel a steal each round, or is it only at the very end of the duration? You noted both a minimum per turn and an end of the mission value, hence my confusion.
• Are their 3 siphon missions, or one siphon mission where I pick a yield as part of the mission? Basically I'm curious if 3 spies can be in my city siphoning 3 yield types, or is it only 1.
• What impact (if any) does security have on the steals?

End of duration you get what you’ve been collecting for x turns. If for some reason the cities output drops below zero with respect to a percentage of value, you’re still guaranteed to get one per turn.

3 separate actions.

Chance of capture and speed of mission.