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Proposal: Democratic Oligarchy

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Multi-site Demo Game: High Council' started by Octavian X, Oct 3, 2003.

  1. Octavian X

    Octavian X is not a pipe.

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    My plan for a new system of government. Please see below for my own thoughts.

    The Council of Admisitrators
    -three members: Chief Administrator, Administrator of Domestic Affairs, Administrator of Foreign Affairs, Administrator of Military Affairs
    -elected to office for what is currently defined as two terms (90 turns)
    -staggered - two administrators are elected every 45 turns
    -all admins are exepected to be very active in the game, both fourm and chatroom wise
    -only admins allowed to play the save
    -responsible for posting specific orders on a turnly basis
    -expected to produce regular progress reports to inform the general public
    -all admins are expected to act as diplomats, in addition to whatever special ambassadors the Admin of FA would appoint
    -only elected officials - other officials would be appointed by this council
    -can be removed via impeachment - to be discussed if the idea as a whole is liked

    -oligarchy - chief authorities of Fanatikou: can make decisions on behalf of Fanaikou without necessairily having citizen support on the specific issue, expected to follow the general will of the people, and to consult with other Administrators on a regular basis

    --Chief Admin.
    ---head of state for symbolic purposes
    ---coordinates efforts of other admins
    ---final say in all disputes
    ---master record-keeper

    --Admin. of DA
    ---in charge of domestic conerns: build queues, city placement, etc.
    ---may appoint others to delegate authoity (ex: Minister of City Placement, Minister of Workers, governors)

    --Admin. of FA
    ---in charge of dealing with other nations
    ---may appoint Ambassadors, other officials to delegate authority (Office of Trade, etc)

    --Admin. of MA
    ---controls all military actions
    ---delegation of authority, etc.

    The Lower Councils
    -each admin (minus Chief Admin) heads up a Lower Council
    -consists of all people that admin has delegated parts of their authority to
    -citizens may join only one of the three lower councils
    -Admins are expected to gather opinions and information their councils, and to use those opinions in the creation of turnly orders

    Why?
    An effcient ruling council of four would allow us to reduce the time it takes to play the save, and allow us to look at least semi-coordinated diplomatically. This allows for easier negotiations, as time often constricts all our actios.

    This system mandates that orders be posted by these admins on a regular basis. At the moment, DPs play the save all too haphazardly. The turn threads rarely have useful opinions for the daily running of the country, and turn chats are only available to those who happen to be thre when the save is played.

    Adims are also mandated to regulars issue reports on all aspects of the nation. This will help the confused figure out what's going on.

    The Lower Councils are a feature I particularly like. They are used for two reasons:
    1. Specialization. If a group of people only does one thing, at least theoretically they'll know what they're doing.
    2. Ease of Information Gathering. It is easier for opinions to be gathered by one person over a smaller group that one person over a larger group. This way, more opinions can be squeezed from a smaller group.

    Of course, turn threads and other discussion would still persist. Admins would be expected to use all resources at their disposal to also gather information fromt the public at large: polls, public discussion, etc. Each council, though, would have a specific thread where only it's members could post, and perhaps a specific chat-room where it's members could discuss things. Like I said, this allows for people to specialize in very specific areas which hopefully allows for us to become a better team as a whole.
     
  2. Bacon King

    Bacon King Chieftain

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    sounds like a pretty good plan.
     
  3. Bootstoots

    Bootstoots Warlord Super Moderator

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    I don't particularly like this plan...there was significant uproar over a few powers that the council had, and somehow I don't think an oligarchy is a good idea for our country, given that little has to have citizen support. And if none of the four was present or able to play the save for any extended period of time, we would hold up the save for a long period of time. I also don't like the Chief Administrator having the final say in all disputes...that is far too open for abuse.
     
  4. Octavian X

    Octavian X is not a pipe.

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    Think about it. First, we already place several people in a position where they have free reign with the save game. Any person who happens to be a DP can, basically, hijack the entire nation. He can screw up the save, present a different summary on the fourms, and no one would be any the smarter. Besides, this 'final say in all disputes' revolves around disptues between the other admins - like if the military wants upgrade money, but domestic doesn't want to approve the entire spending request. Of course, this would all be polled to settle anything before just one person uses that resolution power.

    And administrator leaves for an extended period of time? He can appoint someone to fill in, or the other admins can vote on a temporary replacement for that MIA admin.No big deal.

    If there's still concern, a recall system could be set up. A 3/4 majority of the admins, or a simple majority vote in a poll, could remove an administrator from power.

    Considering the amount of work our current cabinet does, there's only a change for the better. These four admins are expected, no, required to be extremely active - both here on the forums and on that chat rooms. If the forums go down, they are expected to keep up constant discussion via e-mail, chat, or anything else. They are required to post specific, turnly orders. This is a vast improvement from a DP just winging from the forums.

    Yes, they do have extraordinary powers in comparison to what we use today. However, this is only as a last-case resort in the event that pariticpation on the part of others drops out, which has been the case all too often in this team. Because they are also expected to regularly ask the opinions of citizens on the Lower Councils, we can at least squeeze some discussion out of the lesser-active.
     
  5. Gingerbread Man

    Gingerbread Man Dark Magus

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    I like the plan. It avoids problems like me very well...

    I would be happy with that system, but then I hold a high up position, which means I could easily get a high up job again. I dont know how the average citizen would fit into this plan. We need some way to ensure that the administrators will involve the citizens more.
     
  6. Zarn

    Zarn Le Républicain Catholique

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    Yeah, but how can you say one get the citizens involved in foreign affairs (besides appointments). The problem isn't an inactive Ministry. It's an inactive people. We don't have too many regulars. Bless the ones that particpate, but not all look at this forum, everyday. I ain't got the input from citizens. I have to talk to ambassadors and other officials. Sure that helps, but we need citizen input. Most citizens here seem are only concerned with GCA and Poly. GWT is not even in the picture to them.

    BTW, GWT is still not talking. Any suggestions to get their attention? I think someone not answering the 'call' is not a good thing.
     
  7. Octavian X

    Octavian X is not a pipe.

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    GBM and Zarn, this plan utilizes the 'Lower Councils' mentioned after the stuff about the administrators. These lower councils all consist of citizens who join voluntarily, though they all may only belong to one.

    These councils give administrators an effcient method of gathering information. They would have a set list of people interested in discussion those subject matters. In fact, if those people were added to the internal buddy list, or placed on an e-mail list, an admin could, on a regular basis, send on PMs and e-mails asking for specific advice on various issues.

    These councils could also have forum threads and their own chatrooms to discuss issues specific to that paticular council.
     
  8. Ankka

    Ankka Chieftain

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    But do we have enough participants here? We really have only the council + about five citizens here, and DZ and CG aren't posting here regularily. So, now we have Oct, president, GBM, domestic minister and Zarn, foreign minister in the council who post at least almost every day. That isn't enough for an Oligarchy. Not even nearly.
     
  9. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    I'm with Wizard and Bootstoots on this one.

    Octavian you just showed how it would be easy for us to hijack the nation. You should have said how great it was for non officials like bootstoots to responsibly play the save on his own to keep the game running, while these super active and great elected officials are not there any more than the rest of us that will have posted in this thread.
     
  10. Octavian X

    Octavian X is not a pipe.

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    Before you continue to dismiss the plan, please look closely at my ideas for the three Lower Councils again. Despite the fact the majority of the top post was taken up by the Admin's description, it was these councils that were the center of the plan.

    Because administrators would need to coordinate effectively with these councils, and constantly ask of their opinions, we could increase citizen participation, encourage a bit of specialization of talents, and therefore play this game better, and more effectively too.

    Yes, it's nice that any ol' citizen can play the game right now. However, it creates an air of confusion, especially when the forums go down, or if a miscommunication occurs. Case in point: the recent mistake where we sent two different saves two different times.

    During forum downtime, the administrators would be expected to keep in contact with the rest of the Administrative Council, as well as with their own lower councils, over other means. This allows the game to continue smoothly.

    While such mistakes only occur rarely, they can be damaging to our reputation. If we are too disorganized to play a save, how can we be expected to fight, or communicate with other nations, effectively?

    Yes, some of our current ministers post regularly enough. However, they are sometimes forced to use more power than is granted to them by the constitution. And, this doesn't even take into account the deadbeats who come up from time to time, or instances where volunteers can't be found (example: we still don't have a Minister of Science due to the last constitutional amendment).

    Again, having officials that are expected to be active,who have power at the risk of losing their jobs if activity declines below a certain point, would resolve this problem.

    In essance, I'm trying to increase citizen participation (Lower Councils), streamline effciency (fewer elected officials), and grant some emergency powers. These are the more basic level the changes. Our nation, as we know it today, would change only for the better.
     
  11. Ankka

    Ankka Chieftain

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    The reason for no minister of science is simple: no nominations have been held. Who is responsible?

    But, Octavian, you kinda convinced me a little. It doesn't sound that bad after all. :)
     
  12. Gingerbread Man

    Gingerbread Man Dark Magus

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    I appointed Octavian as Science minister. He quit, and went to be prezzy. Nobody has asked about it since.

    Look, I find the position of Science minister absolutely useless. It is a small job, it has nothing much to do, maybe it has some sway in the tech path. At least this plan is getting rid of these offices that have little use, therefore are forgotten about. I am for the change.
     
  13. Bootstoots

    Bootstoots Warlord Super Moderator

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    My main problem with this is that it would take power from the citizens. Of course, the Lower Councils are an interesting idea, but let's face it, the current level of participation shows that one or two people would likely dominate a council, with the other members appearing sporadically. If we didn't have enough participation for political parties, what makes you think that the lower councils are a good idea? And since the administrators can make any decision they want without consulting the people as a whole, what would make this a democracy game, instead of a game of republic where we have a few people holding all the power elected by the people. Though this is perhaps a good thing in a nation with millions of people, when there are only about 10-15 participants why should we delegate all effective power to four of those citizens?

    As to the proposed benefits, let's face it, a Game of Elective Dictatorship would be far more efficient than a democratic oligarchy, so why don't we go there? We'll get more done and not show indecisiveness, we would likely get the save sent faster (if the dictator or his appointees are very active), and we wouldn't have to go through indecisiveness and inefficency. And it's very simple: all the citizens have to do is elect a new dictator every term, who may appoint deputies and advisors and plays the save whenever it comes around, makes every decision needed and is very informed and efficent (he will easily be the most-informed citizen around). He would also (if he were a good Dictator) keep the citizens informed and also conduct the occasional informational poll, which he is expected to look at for advice but is under no obligation to follow. So why shouldn't we have a Game of Elective Dictatorship?

    I would, however, be in favor of canning the Science Ministry, as it has been shown that it is useless.
     
  14. Ankka

    Ankka Chieftain

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    Yeah, the Science minister pposition is as useless as the Term 3: Official Instruction thread. :D
     
  15. Veera Anlai

    Veera Anlai Southern Belle

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    Take power from the citizens? If we left power in the hands of the citizens in this game, nothing would get done ^_^;

    I say Octavian's idea is a good one, so long as the elected officials pay attention to the ideas of the citizens. And I don't think that'll be a problem at all due to the small size of this team.

    (Yes, I *do* read these forums at least every other day, even if I rarely post)
     
  16. Plux

    Plux Emperor

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    I used to attend this forum for quite a while as well, but now I just got back to see the state of affairs after more than a month's absence. Nice to see the WM finally came round :).

    What I wanted to say is that I enjoyed following the game regularly, but I felt my posts about what actions to take were ignored because the DP's just do their own thing, prolly for the lack of official instruction and debating threads. So I just kept on the sideline watching things and actions change every few turns or so. I might return if the discussions and deciding structure of this team would improve. I guess this proposal can only make things better in that respect. :)
     
  17. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    What are you talking about??

    The citizens that post are as active as the officials that post--as in, civgeneral and DZ, who make up half our officials, post less than Bootstoots, Wizard, and I, [possibly] among others.

    And need I continually point out that our citizen bootstoots keeps playing the save?? How's that for ineffectual citizens?
     
  18. Octavian X

    Octavian X is not a pipe.

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    Believe me, I wish I could be playing the save. As you know, circumstances beyond my control prevent me from doing so. If such a system was impleamented, I would shy away from the everything but the Foreign Administration, just because I can't plan without the save.

    Tomorow, I'll post an informational poll to decide whether or not there is enough support for me pursue the changes.
     
  19. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    I'm not 100% against it... but I don't quite understand why I should be for it. I've read the idea and your supporting arguements... but I'm still unsure.
     
  20. Gingerbread Man

    Gingerbread Man Dark Magus

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    Well, just for fun I am starting a democractic debate: invading GCA to retake our land. Here we will discuss how we destroy GCA.
     

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