Proposal for Beliefs Overhaul

[pineappledan]

I have been redesigning and thinking about the state of the religious beliefs for more than a year now, and I have come up with an idea for a beliefs rework.

Before I go forward with my work on this as a modmod, I'm going to submit this for the consideration of the general VP community to weigh in.

Currently, the biggest issue I see with the religion game right now is that there aren't enough beliefs.
The game sets the max number of religions in a game as half the total number of players, plus 1, rounding down. As an example, a standard game has 8 players, or (8/2) +1 = 5 religions. Currently there are 22 pantheons, 9 founders, 16 followers, 9 enhancers, and 9 reformation beliefs. With only 16 followers, you only have enough beliefs for 8 religions. This is enough religions for up to 15 players ((15/2)+1=8.5, rounding down).

The base game allows for up to 22 players on any map type, which would be 12 religions, meaning we have enough pantheons, but are 3 founders, 8 followers, 3 enhancers, and 3 reformation beliefs short. This creates a problem where only very dedicated faith-based civs will grab the few religion slots available in larger games, a problem much more pronounced with the 43 civ DLL.

Please find below my proposals for new beliefs of all kinds, as well as a full list of proposed changes to existing beliefs, based on my own impressions, but also with based on a lot of community feedback on the discussions of the specific belief balance as discussed in various Going for Gold and other threads. These changes would increase the number of possible religions up to 9 (max of 17 players). The bottleneck is Founders, which have more complicated designs, but I have some ideas on how to add more.

Everything I have proposed below is already fully DLL-integrated and does not require any new code. Please leave your answer whether you think we should have more beliefs, and what your impressions are on the changes described.

Spoiler New Beliefs :

below are 1 new Pantheon, 1 Founder, 6 Followers, 2 Enhancers, and 1 Reformation belief

(Pantheon) - God of Storms

2 in Cities with a Garrison.
Pillaging a tile provides 15Faith and Production. Does not scale with Era.​

(Founder) - Revelation

Unlocks Chartarium wonder (4, +5 science to holy sites, 3 slots for Great Works of Literature (+6/2 when themed))
When you discover a new Technology, gain 1// for each Follower of your Religion (max of 250 Followers).​

(Follower) - Martial Arts

Melee and Gun Units trained in this City receive the Warrior Monk Promotion (+20% Defense, +30% XP, +25% Religious Pressure when garrisoned in a City)​

(Follower) - Communalism

Internal Food and Production Trade Routes give +3 of their respective yields, scaling with Era.
+2 Production if City has a Specialist.​

(Follower) - Indulgences

+1 Faith in a City for every 10 Gold per Turn it produces, capped at half the Followers in the City.
10% of the cost of Faith Purchases in this city is converted into Production and Gold.​

(Follower) - Guruship

+1 Faith in a City for every 5 Science per Turn it produces, capped at half the number of Followers in the City.
10% of the cost of Faith Purchases in this city is converted into Culture and Food.​

(Follower) - Sweat Lodges

Allows you to purchase Sweat Lodges with Faith​

Spoiler Sweat Lodge :

Sweat Lodge

200 cost
2Faith, 2Science
+25% Religious pressure and -10% Religious Resistance in this City
-1 Distress in this city
Units stationed in this city Heal 5 HP, regardless of what action they take
1Science to Camps and Plantations​

(Follower) - Dar-e Mehr

Allows you to purchase Dar-e Mehr with Faith​

Spoiler Dar-e Mehr :

Dar-e Mehr

200 cost
3Faith, 2Culture
10% of the city's Culture is Converted to Faith each turn
+25% Religious pressure and -10% Religious Resistance in this City
+1 Great Work of Art slot
-1 Boredom in this city​

(Follower) - Gurdwara

Allows you to purchase Gurdwara with Faith​

Spoiler Gurdwara :

Gurdwara

200 cost
2Faith, 3Food
+10%Food
+10% Defense in the City
+25% Religious pressure and -10% Religious Resistance in this City
-1Distress in this city​

​

(Follower) - Daoguan

Allows you to purchase Daoguan with Faith​

Spoiler Daoguan :

Daoguan

200 cost
4Faith
+20%Great Person Rate in the City
+25% Religious pressure and -10% Religious Resistance in this City
1Great Work of Writing Slot
-1Distress in this city​

(Enhancer) - Emirates

Religion spreads to friendly City-States at triple rate
Religious pressure via Trade Routes tripled
+2 and for Every Active Trade Route
​

(Enhancer) - Animism

Missionaries ignore terrain Movement costs.
+1 to unimproved Features, Lakes, and Natural Wonders​

(Reformation) - Orthodoxy (current orthodoxy belief renamed to Ecumenism) -

Courthouses, Constabularies, and Police Stations gain +4Gold and +2Faith and can be purchased with Faith
+15% Combat Strength for units within 3 tiles of any city following your religion​

(Reformation) - Work Ethic

May build Workshops, Windmills, and Factories with Faith. These buildings produce +2 Production each.
Tile improvement rate increased by 25% for Workers and Archaeologists.​

Spoiler Belief Reworks :

Spoiler Founder Beliefs :

Apostolic Tradition

Can build Apostolic Palace (44; +5 to all Holy Sites)
When you spread your Religion to cities other than your Holy City gain +20 Food in Holy City scaling with new followers of your religion. If spreading to a Foreign city, gain +20 Tourism, scaling with the number of Followers of other Religions.
​

Divine Inheritance - Celestial Throne National wonder changed from +5 faith to Holy Sites to +5GAP

Transcendent Thoughts - renamed to Transcendence

Way of Noble Truths - Removed entirely, and replaced with Revelation (influence on spread moved to abode of peace/nunciates; yields per foreign religion on spread moved to apostolic)

Spoiler Follower Beliefs :

Cooperation - Removed (replaced with Mandir rework)

Veneration - Removed (replaced with Indulgences and Guruship)

Mandir

23
+5,,,, whenever a new Citizen is born in the City, Scaling with Era
1 Great Work of Music Slot
+25% Religious Pressure in City
+20% Religious Resistance in City (up from regular 10%)
-1unhappiness from Poverty​

Orders - Remove free Morale Promotion

Creativity - 1 for every 3 followers in a City; max of 10

Spoiler Enhancer Beliefs :

Abode of Peace - Renamed to Nunciatures

May purchase Diplomatic Units with Faith
+30% rewards from City State Quests
**Note: requires (3) City-State Diplomacy**​

Orthodoxy - renamed to Ecumenism (a new Reformation belief is named Orthodoxy)

Religion Spreads 25% faster (50% with Printing Press)
Religion Spreads 25% further Away
+5Faith and Golden Age Points in the Holy City​

Mendicancy

+2 and in all owned cities following this Religion
Missionaries of this Religion erode existing pressure from other religions by 15% when Spreading Religion​

Syncretism - renamed to Universalism

+1 for every 5 followers of foreign religions in your own cities
+1 for every 10 followers of your religion in foreign cities​

Symbolism -

+2GWAM points in Holy City (down from +2 of all 7 GP types)
-1 Policy requirement for World Wonders for every 8 Cities following your Religion (max of 3)
+1 Happiness for every 4 Cities following your Religion (max of 6)​

Prophecy - Renamed to Sainthood. Removed Policy Wonder reduction (moved to Symbolism)

Zealotry - Removed Missionary Spread Erosion (moved to Mendicancy)

Spoiler Reformation Beliefs :

Faith of the Masses - Removed 1 for every 2 cities following your Religion (Moved to Symbolism)

Global Commandments - Removed +15% Religion spread speed (moved to Ecumenism)

 

[Stalker0]

I will focus on the belief reworks for now, as there is already a good amount to unpack there:

Apostolic: So this provides a two-tier system of spreads, the food bonus and the tourism bonus are not the same scaling calculation. Ultimately I find that a bit clunky, I can see the desire to capture this wider range of options, but I think a solid bonus one way or the other is still pretty good. This feels weaker than current Apostolic, but if people still think that belief is too good after recent nerfs it might be worth looking at.

Divine Inheritance: The intent is to synergize the holy site with the GA benefit of the belief. I am ambivalent, the change makes sense but the raw faith is also nice for other reasons...so its a take it or leave it for me.

Mandir: I like the concept here, and this is probably my favorite of the overall proposals. Mandirs are a bit questionable with the recent spy change and cooperation keeps shifting between too weak and too strong, so this form might give it a better home.

Orders: I don't see the need here. Orders are quite strong, but so are a lot of the buildings for various reasons.

Creativity: So the change is just removing the +2 faith per city with a specialist? Honestly creativity is not usually a top choice belief for me, culture is always nice but you really have to work for it here. I feel this is an unneeded nerf.

Abode of Peace: This is the other one I liked a good amount. I do like the idea of having a good solid belief around CS, and this is a nice package of options. further, I think the current Abode is flimsy and not all that great.

Orthodoxy: Remind me, we seperated those spread bonuses in the current version correct? I think that was done with good reason (as previously the holder of orthodoxy could dominate spread pretty easily). I'm not liking this one.

Mendicancy: Looks like a typo with the great monk (I assume that's for the modmod). I think its a weird synergy to have a belief focused on internal religion gives spread bonuses. In fact, I think this would be the best candidate to put back the (missionaries and great prophets are at half strength when converting you) thing that Prophecy used to have.....it makes sense for a belief focused on your own personal religion to be resistant to coversion.

Symbolism: Not a fan. I think the current symbolism is fine conceptually it just needs toning down.

Prophecy: I think the current version is rock solid, this change is not necessary.

 

[psparky]

I find the poll asking a different question compared to the thread title. I would tentatively vote yes to the specific question "Do you think Vox Populi should have more Beliefs?" but I wouldn't want that taken as an endorsement for the specific suggestions in the OP. I would welcome an extra founder and enhancer belief, but for slightly more variety rather than to allow more religions. I find I already have plenty of options in the other categories.

Regarding the number of religions (and please forgive me if my information is out of date) it is based on the map size, not the number of players. The number of religions for each map size is related to the default number of players for that map size by the formula you gave, so a Standard map allows 5 religions, but if you add 2 extra civs, you still only get 5 religions, not 6. The number can be configured to your preference in xml/sql.

I also seem to remember that the 43 civ version allows each belief to be chosen twice, but that could even be from some other mod entirely.

 

[DeAnno]

Overall I don't like the way you set up the poll. It's a false dichotomy where you could want more beliefs but not particularly like this set, and there should be at least 3 options so that can be better addressed.

On beliefs:

(Pantheon) - Trickster God

12Faith and Science when you complete a non-road Improvement. Does not scale with Era.​

I don't like this one much. I feel it's too finicky once you reach the time of workers with nothing to do who can flip things back and forth between villages and forts forever on unused hexes. For the maintenance of a worker those yields every couple turns is a good deal for too much of the game. This would be reasonable if it didn't give credit unless the tile had been unimproved before somehow.

(Follower) - Martial Arts

Melee and Gun Units trained in this City receive the Warrior Monk Promotion (+20% Defense, +33% XP, +30% Religious Pressure when garrisoned in a City)​

I don't like this just because it's too differently set up from the other followers. Maybe if it was grafted onto a building as a more clear alternative to orders.

(Follower) - Sweat Lodges

Allows you to purchase Sweat Lodges with Faith​

Spoiler Sweat Lodge :

Sweat Lodge

200 cost
2Faith, 2Science
+20% Religious pressure and -15% Religious Resistance in this City
-1 Distress in this city
Units stationed in this city Heal 5 HP, regardless of what action they take
1Science to Camps and Plantations​

Does it really need non-standard religious pressure and resistance? Seems finicky for the sake of being finicky to me, I don't like that part at all. I have this opinion for your other buildings as well but I won't restate it, this one at least is good otherwise.

(Follower) - Dar-e Mehr

Allows you to purchase Dar-e Mehr with Faith​

Spoiler Dar-e Mehr :

Dar-e Mehr

200 cost
3Faith, 2Culture
10% of the city's Culture is Converted to Faith each turn
+30% Religious pressure and -15% Religious Resistance in this City
+1 Great Work of Art slot
-1 Boredom in this city​

This seems way too similar to a Church for my liking. Stronger pressure and gives Faith and Culture. It needs more to differentiate it.

(Follower) - Gurdwara

Allows you to purchase Gurdwara with Faith​

Spoiler Gurdwara :

Gurdwara

200 cost
2Faith, 3Food
+10%Food
+10% Defense in the City
+30% Religious pressure and -15% Religious Resistance in this City
-1Distress in this city​

So you want to shuffle this and a Mandir? I'm not really convinced this shouldn't just be the new Mandir.


Apostolic Tradition

Can build Apostolic Palace (44; +5 to all Holy Sites)
When you spread your Religion to cities other than your Holy City gain +20 Food in Holy City scaling with new followers of your religion. If spreading to a Foreign city, gain +20 Tourism, scaling with the number of Followers of other Religions.​

Creativity - 1 for every 3 followers in a City; max of 10

This is kind of just complete trash now. I know you're trying to help its lategame but taking away the Faith makes it too slow and too bad to ever use. How long does it even take to get to 21 followers in one city? Long enough that a couple extra culture can't save this belief.

Abode of Peace - Renamed to Nunciatures

+10 Influence when spreading your religion to City States, scaling with Era.
May purchase Diplomatic Units with Faith
+20% rewards from City State Quests​

I don't really like these two bonuses together because they do too much of the same thing. If you're using Faith to buy influence having two ways to do it seems eh.

Mendicancy

+3 Great Monk Points
+2 and in all owned cities following this Religion
Missionaries of this Religion erode existing pressure from other religions by 15% when Spreading Religio
​

Obvious issue.

Syncretism - renamed to Universalism

+1 for every 5 followers of foreign religions in your own cities
+1 for every 10 followers of your religion in foreign cities​

Symbolism -

+2GWAM points in Holy City (down from +2 of all 7 GP types)
-1 Policy requirement for World Wonders for every 8 Cities following your Religion (max of 3)
+1 Happiness for every 4 Cities following your Religion (max of 6)
​

I think this is the right direction but I don't want to steal from Prophecy.

Prophecy - Renamed to Sainthood. Removed Policy Wonder reduction (moved to Symbolism)

Totally unwarranted nerf.

 

[pineappledan]

Apostolic:

So this provides a two-tier system of spreads, the food bonus and the tourism bonus are not the same scaling calculation. Ultimately I find that a bit clunky, I can see the desire to capture this wider range of options, but I think a solid bonus one way or the other is still pretty good. This feels weaker than current Apostolic, but if people still think that belief is too good after recent nerfs it might be worth looking at.

It fixes another issue which is reducing the total number of missionary spread founders.
Keep in mind also that the current apostolic has 2 clunky bonuses. So if this one is also a bit clunky then at least it's no worse.

Divine Inheritance: The intent is to synergize the holy site with the GA benefit of the belief. I am ambivalent, the change makes sense but the raw faith is also nice for other reasons...so its a take it or leave it for me.

The main intent was to find a home for and on holy sites. With me breaking apart Way of Noble Truths, that removes the on holy sites founder. So I moved that with the on spread action to Apostolic, which doesn't have any GAPs on the main part anymore anyways.

Then, Divine Inheritance had on Holy Sites, which is the same as Ceremonial burial, so the buck stops there, and it is a good home with a natural synergy for GAPs on holy site.

I could also make Revelation GAPs on holy site instead, but it doesn't feel as relevant there as the

Orders: I don't see the need here. Orders are quite strong, but so are a lot of the buildings for various reasons.

I don't like how the Order overwrites the Heroic Epic by giving morale to every city.
We can argue if Heroic even deserves to have a special 10% bonus at all, and we can argue if orders should be stronger, but I am of the firm opinion that Orders shouldn't be made stronger by rendering the Heroic Epic's 1 permanent bonus redundant.

Does it really need non-standard religious pressure and resistance? Seems finicky for the sake of being finicky to me, I don't like that part at all. I have this opinion for your other buildings as well but I won't restate it, this one at least is good otherwise.

TBH, I don't really understand why "standard" 25 spread/10 resistance is a thing? I have changed them all to 'standard' (except the mandir)

I would like to give Mandirs the highest resistance, to depict their resilience to waves of buddhism/christianity/islam/christianity again coming into the subcontinent, and still retaining a majority Hindu identity.

So you want to shuffle this and a Mandir? I'm not really convinced this shouldn't just be the new Mandir

To your point about the Gurdwara/Mandir, the reshuffle was mainly due to complaints about Cooperation, which I agreed with. Those bonuses on birth needed a home somewhere that could give more consistent bonuses, and a building with extra food sounds perfect. Between the two, the Gurdwara makes the most sense for pure food generation, because of the centrality of the langar (soup kitchen) that is in every Gurdwara. On the Mandir, the food bonus seems to only be there as a nod to there just being a lot of Indians in the world, whereas it's actually a central, functional institution of Sikhism to feed their community.

Creativity: So the change is just removing the +2 faith per city with a specialist?

This is kind of just complete trash now. I know you're trying to help its lategame but taking away the Faith makes it too slow and too bad to ever use. How long does it even take to get to 21 followers in one city? Long enough that a couple extra culture can't save this belief.

To @Stalker, the proposal is to take out the specialist boost and raise the cap from 6 to 10
Maybe we could give Creativity 1 for 2, capping at 5, but I don't like that this is the only scaling follower belief with a secondary effect, and I think people didn't try hard enough to find a good level for a culture scaler before landing on 6 and a secondary effect.
So let's debate that.

Mendicancy: Looks like a typo with the great monk (I assume that's for the modmod). I think its a weird synergy to have a belief focused on internal religion gives spread bonuses. In fact, I think this would be the best candidate to put back the (missionaries and great prophets are at half strength when converting you) thing that Prophecy used to have.....it makes sense for a belief focused on your own personal religion to be resistant to coversion.

Typo fixed.
The half effect of enemy GProphets and inquisitors against your foreign believers is still part of Prophecy. That's why I didn't think it would miss losing the -1 policy reduction thing; few other enhancers get 3 bonuses, nevermind 4.

Symbolism: Not a fan. I think the current symbolism is fine conceptually it just needs toning down.

I'm a bit mystified by this. Symbolism is +2 GPP of all types and 5 GAP in the Holy City.
It's not interactive or scalable at all. It's just an inert belief of flat yields.

Meanwhile, Prophecy has cheaper/stronger Gprophets, more yields on holy sites, wonder policy reductions, and inquisition resistance. Depending on how you count Inquisition's bonuses, Prophecy is either the only or 1 of 2 enhancers that has 4 bonuses. Meanwhile, Symbolism has 2 boring, static bonuses. Prophecy has no business being some special Swiss Army knife belief while Symbolism looks this bad.

Orthodoxy: Remind me, we seperated those spread bonuses in the current version correct? I think that was done with good reason (as previously the holder of orthodoxy could dominate spread pretty easily). I'm not liking this one.

The old orthodoxy had the following:
25% pressure power
25% pressure distance
3x pressure via TRs
2x pressure to friendly city-states
Which was a lot. The most powerful part was the trade routes, but people mis-diagnosed the problem as the passive pressure. So I separated those bonuses out to create Emirates.
In the intervening time, G fiddled with adding/moving a few of those beliefs, reducing the power/distance to 15% (but inexplicably leave the TR pressure at +200%), and then finally moved the spread distance to global commandments. It has never been the case that the spread power and distance modifiers were alone on a belief together.

I don't like this just because it's too differently set up from the other followers. Maybe if it was grafted onto a building as a more clear alternative to orders.

Buildings are the easiest followers to come up with, because they can pretty much do anything a belief can do and more. What is hard is coming up with beliefs that don't require a faith-purchased building. The dichotomy of a building that has military boosts and a belief that gives those boosts directly is something I would like to preserve, but we can discuss how the two should interact and diverge.

Abode of Peace - I don't really like these two bonuses together because they do too much of the same thing. If you're using Faith to buy influence having two ways to do it seems eh.

That's kind of the point. If we are going to allow missionaries to give influence, then we should just create a belief that allows players to convert faith into influence. the power of the spread scales on era, so it fluctuates relative to the power of diplomatic units. combining the two bonuses into a single enhancer negates that fluctuation

 

[Stalker0]

To @Stalker, the proposal is to take out the specialist boost and raise the cap from 6 to 10
Maybe we could give Creativity 1 for 2, capping at 5, but I don't like that this is the only scaling follower belief with a secondary effect, and I think people didn't try hard enough to find a good level for a culture scaler before landing on 6 and a secondary effect.
So let's debate that.

The half effect of enemy GProphets and inquisitors against your foreign believers is still part of Prophecy. That's why I didn't think it would miss losing the -1 policy reduction thing; few other enhancers get 3 bonuses, nevermind 4.

I'll need some help from the audience to remember our history. We have tried 1 culture for 2 in the past, and it was universally considered too strong. What was the cap when we tried that?

In terms of prophecy or any belief, the number of components to the policy has 0 (and I do mean absolutely 0) to do with strength of balance. I can easily design something with 12 piddly bonuses vs 1 massive bonus, and you would choose the 1 every single time. So the fact that prophecy has 4 bonuses means nothing.... the question is whether those 4 bonuses together are too good? My answer is no, I think the -1 policy is a key element of prophecy's balance, it gives the belief longevity once you establish a good number of holy sites and the faith becomes too expensive to get more. Further such a bonus needs no scaling, -1 policy is ALWAYS good, -3 policies is not needed.

The critique about Abode's bonuses overlapping each other is valid, but I think with a little tweaking we can fix that. I envision a situation where you do your initial CS friendships through your initial religious spread, and then later game you buy your diplomatic units. So the change here is to give the religious spread bonus a solid (but non-era scaling) bonus. Now each part of the belief has a more defined niche.

Abode of Peace - Renamed to Nunciatures
+35 Influence when a CS first adopts your religion (note this is no longer per spread)
May purchase Diplomatic Units with Faith
+20% rewards from City State Quests

 

[pineappledan]

Abode of Peace - Renamed to Nunciatures
+35 Influence when a CS first adopts your religion (note this is no longer per spread)
May purchase Diplomatic Units with Faith
+20% rewards from City State Quests

Influence on conversion is new code, so make that a stretch goal.
I am more than happy to abandon the missionary spread influence thing. Borobodur alone makes it impossible to reconcile the missionary influence power against diplomatic units, but you also have to consider the purchase cooldowns. Either Missionaries replace diplomats entirely by being unquestionably more powerful at all stages of the game, or you're left constantly reformulating the relative value of / cost of diplomats and cost of missionaries, and determining which one most efficiently converts input yields into influence. The main thrust of my initial proposal was to make doing that math easier. so you can compare faith apples to faith oranges. But I am equally happy to resign Influence on missionary spread back to the toy bin. It's just not a fair, workable mechanic.

So for now:
Abode of Peace - Renamed to Nunciatures
May purchase Diplomatic Units with Faith
+30% rewards from City State Quests

 

[pineappledan]

I expanded the poll.

If we wanted to just expand the game out to 9 religions/17 max players, the bare minimum is adding 2 new follower beliefs and changing nothing else.

In terms of prophecy or any belief, the number of components to the policy has 0 (and I do mean absolutely 0) to do with strength of balance. I can easily design something with 12 piddly bonuses vs 1 massive bonus, and you would choose the 1 every single time. So the fact that prophecy has 4 bonuses means nothing.... the question is whether those 4 bonuses together are too good? My answer is no, I think the -1 policy is a key element of prophecy's balance, it gives the belief longevity once you establish a good number of holy sites and the faith becomes too expensive to get more. Further such a bonus needs no scaling, -1 policy is ALWAYS good, -3 policies is not needed.

On this we will have to agree to disagree, because if longevity is the issue then you will have to make a case why the inquisitor resistance doesn't already fit that bill, and why the holy site yield boosts aren't considered permanent to you.

Meanwhile, I agree that -3 wonder policy reduction at 24 cities is meaningless, but making it scaling at least means you need to do some work to spread to 8 cities to get your first policy reduction. That's also why I combined it with happiness for spreading, because that is a meaningful scaling bonus.

 

[Stalker0]

On this we will have to agree to disagree, because if longevity is the issue then you will have to make a case why the inquisitor resistance doesn't already fit that bill, and why the holy site yield boosts aren't considered permanent to you.

with respect, as the change agent, its you who needs to explain why Prophecy is a bad belief that requires adjustment. With beliefs like Abode or Cooperation your argument is that the existing beliefs have some flaws that could use adjustment. I agree with that stance, and so I am open to change. Prophecy is rock solid, a great belief I use often....so I am not seeing a reason to rock the boat.

As to your note of "why the holy site yield boosts aren't considered permanent to you" my answer is "it does not maintain a bonus of relevance".

Councils give a +1 science bonus is forever, but on turn 350 its no longer a bonus I think is relevant. If building councils meant I couldn't build some other building....I would seriously consider if I wanted them.

Prophecy's holy site bonuses are permanent but not in a relevant way for the entire game. However, the -1 policy can be relevant all the way through the end of the game, as a player not pursuing a strong culture play may always have need of it to build key wonders in the late game.

Now to be clear, I am not saying permanent bonuses are required in all instances, there are various things in the game with such a strong early game edge that any late game bonuses are unneeded. However, in Prophecy's case I do not think the holy site bonuses are good enough on their own, and so maintaining a more permanent bonus alongside them provides a nice balance to keep the belief relevant. This is why Prophecy is such a well designed belief.

 

[pineappledan]

If I am taking it upon myself to do a belief balance rework without adding any further DLL code, then I need to assess what all beliefs do, and where those abilities can be remixed to cover more ground.

I can easily design something with 12 piddly bonuses vs 1 massive bonus, and you would choose the 1 every single time.

This is a misunderstanding of the tools available. You could make a belief with 12 piddly bonuses, but could you CODE a belief with 12 different, unique bonuses that feels like it's not trying to do too many things? Couldn't 3 of those 12 bonuses be strengthened and made into a single more coherent belief, and the other 9 abilities repurposed or strengthened to round out others?

Prophecy has the most abilities of any Enhancer at 4. Like that 12 belief example, couldn't we make 3 of them slightly stronger, maybe giving more yields to holy sites, or making Gprophet spread even stronger, and give that 4th bonus away to those less fortunate? But in GProphets case, I don't even think that's necessary. My impression from playing games with Prophecy is that the combination of stronger, cheaper GProphets, better holy sites, and inquisition resistance stands on its own as a valid enhancer choice, without needing the policy reduction and without needing to be compensated in some other area. Meanwhile, poor Symbolism has no scalable bonuses (Sacred Calendar, Syncretism), it doesn't make spreading easier or more rewarding (eg. Orthodoxy/Ecumenism, Mendicancy rework), It doesn't augment an existing faith sink (Inquisition, Prophecy/Sainthood), and does it give any new faith sink (Zealotry, Abode/Nunciates).

So in addition to being completely inert, it's also the only enhancer that doesn't interact with any religion mechanics at all. Meanwhile, Prophecy is squatting on existing code that could be scalable, but is made not to, hoarding the finite number of tools and mechanics like a dragon.

Edit: And I remind you that we already broke apart Orthodoxy in the exact same way when it had 4 spread bonuses piled into it, depriving the rest of the enhancer pool of any of those spreader tools without overlapping.

 

[Stalker0]

Alright, now I will dig in to the new beliefs.

Trickster God - I don't like beliefs that require "fiddly" maintenance. The idea of a pantheon that rewards me for infrastructure is cool, I like that. However, the idea that I could just maintain workers constantly shifting improvements to different ones to milk bonuses I do not like. If this was a "the first time that tile is improved" kind of thing I could get behind it.

God of Storms - The idea of a pantheon around pillaging is a cool concept. I do think the garrison idea is at a bit of a cross paths (I need to send my units out to pillage....but also leave them behind to get faith....I don't have that many units in the early eras).

Revelation - Conceptually I like it, seems like a cool belief for science bonused civs to take, has some progress synergy. I can't speak to the balance yet, but I like the idea.

Martial Arts - These seem like reeeeally good military bonuses, I'm not convinced on this one.

Communalism - How does this one work, is it the origin city of the TR that needs the follower, the destination city, both? ITRs is a design space that could use some love, so I think there is something here especially for Tradition styles.

Sweat Lodge - the heal is a good concept, but otherwise this feels very niche, aka you need a really strong camp/plantation engine for this....but I guess these can be a bit niche and still work. I feel like I would need a lot of camps/plantations before I'd take this over the science per followers belief....but in the spirit of allowing two science focused followers this could work.

Dar-e Mer - I think we already give so much incentive to go culture, I don't see the need to push that even further. Aka this is a niche that I don't think is needed for the game.

Gurdwara - I think you updated the mandir for good reason, I feel like this just falls back into the trap of being unappealing.

Daoguan - I think some GPP % bonus can work, but probably not 20%, that seems too high. Maybe a +10% with some other bonus.

Emirates - This is a cool concept, I think trade focused religion is an underutilized concept thats worth exploring.

Animism - Hard no, the bonuses seem weak. Unimproved tiles could maybe work as a pantheon, but by enhancer I can't see using unimproved tiles as a mainstay.

New Orthodoxy - In theory with statecraft and other constabulary boosters, maybe this could have some use. Seems like a strong military focused belief, so I'll let others comment on their thoughts on this one.

 

[Stalker0]

couldn't we make 3 of them slightly stronger, maybe giving more yields to holy sites, or making Gprophet spread even stronger, and give that 4th bonus away to those less fortunate? But in GProphets case, I don't even think that's necessary. My impression from playing games with Prophecy is that the combination of stronger, cheaper GProphets, better holy sites, and inquisition resistance stands on its own as a valid enhancer choice, without needing the policy reduction and without needing to be compensated in some other area.

You could do that, but that's not the current proposal, Prophecy is just nerfed.

Frankly if you wanted to strip something from Prophecy than I would go with the half conversion power. Prophecy doesn't really need that (in most games I play I wouldn't notice if it was gone), I don't need strong followers to maintain prophecy so I don't mind if I get converted in many cases.

You could give that boost to mendicancy, whose whole point is spreading to your cities only, holding your religion, and then saving that faith for other things. Giving that belief the ability to maintain its internal religion without additional faith is a very worthy benefit.

 

[pineappledan]

Trickster God - I don't like beliefs that require "fiddly" maintenance. The idea of a pantheon that rewards me for infrastructure is cool, I like that. However, the idea that I could just maintain workers constantly shifting improvements to different ones to milk bonuses I do not like. If this was a "the first time that tile is improved" kind of thing I could get behind it.

This isn't the first time this criticism has come up. logging individuals tiles is pretty expensive -- there's a lot of them. The yields don't scale on era, so by the time you get to the point where you have improved all your tiles and could just cycle improvements on some unworked tile, you're probably in renaissance, and it's hardly worth the 3-5gold maintenance on the worker to generate 1212 every 4-6 turns. Until you reach that point, you're better off just improving tiles and working them.

God of Storms - The idea of a pantheon around pillaging is a cool concept. I do think the garrison idea is at a bit of a cross paths (I need to send my units out to pillage....but also leave them behind to get faith....I don't have that many units in the early eras).

The trouble with a pantheon all about pillaging is that there's nothing to pillage in the early game. So you won't get to use that part of the belief until you have enough units that you can afford to leave a garrison.

Martial Arts - These seem like reeeeally good military bonuses, I'm not convinced on this one.

Keep in mind it's only melee and gun units. 30% XP rounds down to only +1 XP (6 XP on attack up from 5), so it's a lot less scary in practice. The 25% spread is the same as any building, so it's whatever. The 20% defense is the big part. I've tried it and didn't get the impression it was OP.

Communalism - How does this one work, is it the origin city of the TR that needs the follower, the destination city, both? ITRs is a design space that could use some love, so I think there is something here especially for Tradition styles.

Not exactly sure, since I tend to convert all of my own cities. It's the old mendicancy code.

Sweat Lodge - the heal is a good concept, but otherwise this feels very niche, aka you need a really strong camp/plantation engine for this....but I guess these can be a bit niche and still work. I feel like I would need a lot of camps/plantations before I'd take this over the science per followers belief....but in the spirit of allowing two science focused followers this could work.

My experience with this building so far is that it's a bit strong. Those are already high-priority tiles, and you can get 3-5 camps around a single city okay, plus the base yields is 25-7, which is considerable.

Dar-e Mer - I think we already give so much incentive to go culture, I don't see the need to push that even further. Aka this is a niche that I don't think is needed for the game.

It's not really a culture building; it's a faith building. It converts to faith. I felt there was a niche for a lategame scaling faith battery. I could switch the YieldIn type to something like gold, since that seems like a very Persian yield.

Animism - Hard no, the bonuses seem weak. Unimproved tiles could maybe work as a pantheon, but by enhancer I can't see using unimproved tiles as a mainstay.

It has its uses with a marshy start, combined with goddess of Renewal. Unimproved tiles needs to show up late if at all, because you need a reason to not chop or build lumber mills, etc. that can slightly outcompete those tiles for a bit, and then can get relegated to Natural wonders, atolls, oases, etc.

It does NOT work as a pantheon, because "unimproved tiles" is overbroad, covering more specific applications like Aurora, Renewal, Sea, and Spirit of the Desert, which boost specific unimproved tiles. boosting all unimproved tiles as early as a pantheon, before you have a worker anyways, eclipses other beliefs. As an Enhancer, however, you have to make decisions what tiles to leave alone.

I have fiddled with the unimproved tile yields a bit; I don't know where the right balance is, but I started with 1 and that felt a too good. I lowered it to 1 and it still felt too good, plus you could just feed the faith into you faster missionaries.
Putting that aside, we have stronger missionaries, spreading more, degrading pressure, but we don't have faster ones. I thought the niche of a missionary that saved micro and could cross a river, get in place and spread in 1 turn without taking any attrition had some value.

New Orthodoxy - In theory with statecraft and other constabulary boosters, maybe this could have some use. Seems like a strong military focused belief, so I'll let others comment on their thoughts on this one.

I think the main draw is you can basically use it like an early Iron curtain, faith-buying courthouses in 1 turn is convenient.

 

[pineappledan]

Frankly if you wanted to strip something from Prophecy than I would go with the half conversion power. Prophecy doesn't really need that (in most games I play I wouldn't notice if it was gone), I don't need strong followers to maintain prophecy so I don't mind if I get converted in many cases.

the resistance to deconversion feels at home with the more powerful GProphet bonus. It ensures that if you do use your Gprophets in that way, the converts you made will also stick around longer. It's the one place in the Enhancers, where it can combine with a foreign spread boost while not making the belief feel overburdened. Also just thematically I feel it makes good sense with a sainted martyr figure. I wanted to get away from "prophecy" as a name. It feels a bit on the nose for a belief that boosts prophets. It's also too similar to "revelation", and other ideas of spreading divine knowledge, because prophecy is an overarching, and non-specific term.

Meanwhile something like "symbolism", in my mind invokes great buildings and works of art, and things like the poor man's bible, so the wonder policy reduction feels of-a-kind to me.

You could give that boost to mendicancy, whose whole point is spreading to your cities only, holding your religion, and then saving that faith for other things. Giving that belief the ability to maintain its internal religion without additional faith is a very worthy benefit.

The ability to resist inquisitions by definition means we aren't dealing with your internal religion; the followers have to be outside your empire to be exposed to foreign inquisitors.

I put the degrades foreign pressure on spread thing onto mendicancy because it felt the most appropriate there (mendicants are full-time, vow of poverty, spreaders of the faith). It's also a belief where the other bonus (2 per city) feels weak enough that the degradation doesn't become OP, like it was when it was on Symbolism before. the reason you give for the inquisitor resistance on mendicancy better describes the degredation bonus, which could save you having to spend faith on inquisitors to de-convert your own cities.

 

[Stalker0]

I put the degrades foreign pressure on spread thing onto mendicancy because it felt the most appropriate there (mendicants are full-time, vow of poverty, spreaders of the faith). It's also a belief where the other bonus (2 per city) feels weak enough that the degradation doesn't become OP, like it was when it was on Symbolism before. the reason you give for the inquisitor resistance on mendicancy better describes the degredation bonus, which could save you having to spend faith on inquisitors to de-convert your own cities.

But there is also no synergy here. If I'm playing mendicancy, I have no desire to spread, the whole point is to bow out of that religion game and use my faith for other stuff, else the belief is much weaker than other options. So giving me spread power is wasted.

You mentioned that I can spend faith to buy inquisitors, that is exactly what I don't want to do as Medicancy. I don't want to spend faith to convert back, I want my belief to be rock solid enough that people aren't doing to want to convert me in the first place, which the half conversion power does well.

 

[Stalker0]

I thought the niche of a missionary that saved micro and could cross a river, get in place and spread in 1 turn without taking any attrition had some value.

I agree this is a fine benefit to have in a belief, I'm just not convinced that having a bonus for unimproved tiles should even be a thing. Civ is about improvement, that is the whole point of the game. I feel like pushing benefits for unimproved tiles pushes us away from that core gameplay. I can respect the concept as the thing you use BEFORE you start improvements....which is why I thought it might work as a pantheon, but if your testing has shown its not balanceable as a pantheon....than I don't think it should exist.

 

[pineappledan]

But there is also no synergy here. If I'm playing mendicancy, I have no desire to spread, the whole point is to bow out of that religion game and use my faith for other stuff, else the belief is much weaker than other options. So giving me spread power is wasted.

You mentioned that I can spend faith to buy inquisitors, that is exactly what I don't want to do as Medicancy. I don't want to spend faith to convert back, I want my belief to be rock solid enough that people aren't doing to want to convert me in the first place, which the half conversion power does well.

It doesn't work that way. The degradation can be used on your own cities to save you having to inquisitor yourself if you're focused on maintaining your own religion. The conversion resistance on prophecy only works vs enemy Gprophets and inquisitors. If you are worried about your own followers in your own cities, then they are already immune to inquisitors, and foreign missionary spreads hit them at full power just fine.

I agree this is a fine benefit to have in a belief, I'm just not convinced that having a bonus for unimproved tiles should even be a thing. Civ is about improvement, that is the whole point of the game. I feel like pushing benefits for unimproved tiles pushes us away from that core gameplay. I can respect the concept as the thing you use BEFORE you start improvements....which is why I thought it might work as a pantheon, but if your testing has shown its not balanceable as a pantheon....than I don't think it should exist.

At the very least there are some tiles which are just always unimprovable, and it can combine with pantheons that boost things like Natural wonders, oases, atolls, and marshes to keep them relevant. I might add lake tiles to the mix as well

 

[Stalker0]

This isn't the first time this criticism has come up. logging individuals tiles is pretty expensive -- there's a lot of them. The yields don't scale on era, so by the time you get to the point where you have improved all your tiles and could just cycle improvements on some unworked tile, you're probably in renaissance, and it's hardly worth the 3-5gold maintenance on the worker to generate 1212 every 4-6 turns. Until you reach that point, you're better off just improving tiles and working them.

I think you underestimate that there a good number of civ players that are perfectionist and completionist type players. Your right that there are many players that would at some point just not bother to do this, as they would get tired of it. But there are players who would be driven mad with the notion that they are leaving yields on the table by not doing the clicks. The simplest answer is.... maintaining a 5 GPT maintenance to generate 4 SPT and 4 FPT is a good trade, and so there are players that will absolutely utilize every click to maintain it, even long beyond when those yields would generate true benefit.

I think any mechanic that expends clicks from a player with practically no benefit should be removed whenever possible, that's just good practice. The idea of balance through laziness I don't adhere to.

 

[Stalker0]

and it can combine with pantheons that boost things like Natural wonders, oases, atolls, and marshes to keep them relevant. I might add lake tiles to the mix as well

If it worked on lakes that could round it off enough to make it work.

 

[pineappledan]

I think you underestimate that there a good number of civ players that are perfectionist and completionist type players. Your right that there are many players that would at some point just not bother to do this, as they would get tired of it. But there are players who would be driven mad with the notion that they are leaving yields on the table by not doing the clicks. The simplest answer is.... maintaining a 5 GPT maintenance to generate 4 SPT and 4 FPT is a good trade, and so there are players that will absolutely utilize every click to maintain it, even long beyond when those yields would generate true benefit.

The funniest part about your answer is that I could just lie to you and tell you that it only works the first time you improve a tile. That would relieve you from this hamster wheel mind prison without actually changing anything, and it wouldn't substantively affect balance whether it was true or not, because the amount of yields we're referring to here is too low to move the needle when you are making hundreds of per turn from other sources.

It's not an issue to not implement pantheons. We don't actually even need any more of them, since we have the full compliment of 22 already.