1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Proposal for the forested plantations issue

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by black213, Jan 10, 2020.

  1. black213

    black213 Emperor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2010
    Messages:
    1,442
    Introducing slash-and-burn as a way to clear vegetation! Available on turn 0 but gives less/no production. It's both intrinsic to the Civ theme and a fix to forested plantation resource starts.
     
    SupTo, Edaka, Chandler and 4 others like this.
  2. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

    Joined:
    May 2, 2013
    Messages:
    1,033
    Could also just give calendar both forest and jungle removal. The main issue I see is that you have to hit 2 different 2nd level techs to improve forested plantations whereas jungled plantations seem in a good spot.
     
  3. Heinz_Guderian

    Heinz_Guderian Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2020
    Messages:
    82
    Location:
    Sweden
    The flavor in that is also absolutely ridiculous, I realise it isnt the exact same thing but to have different techs for cutting down jungle and forest just feels wrong.
     
    Mauro Mezzina and Dimmy like this.
  4. Blue Ghost

    Blue Ghost King

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2016
    Messages:
    687
    Vanilla Civ had forest removal unlocked at Mining. Is there a specific reason VP moved away from that?
     
  5. ASCII Guy

    ASCII Guy Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2019
    Messages:
    74
    Gender:
    Male
    Maybe Animal Husbandry should unlock forest removal.
     
  6. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors King

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    981
    Gender:
    Male
    If it's available too early, it could mess with the balance of Stonehenge and other early Wonders (since forest removal gives a fair amount of Production at that stage). Civs with a forest/jungle start would have an advantage.
     
    JamesNinelives and Erikose like this.
  7. ASCII Guy

    ASCII Guy Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2019
    Messages:
    74
    Gender:
    Male
    I feel like forest/jungle starts need a buff anyways.
     
    JamesNinelives and telelavoro like this.
  8. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    4,781
    Location:
    Beijing
    We could just move forest chopping to mining. I think almost everybody researches mining, right?
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  9. andersw

    andersw King

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2008
    Messages:
    751
    Location:
    sweden
    For the very early yields the forest on the plantations arent horrible (better yields than jungle plantations), its the combination that plantations are worse than mine/quarry with the extra worker turns.
    But I either reroll start or take it as a more challenging start depending on my mood, it will ofc hurt the AI when they start in certain locations like that.
     
  10. LifeOfBrian

    LifeOfBrian Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2019
    Messages:
    207
    Any possibility for forest chopping to unlock when you discover either bronze working or calendar?
     
  11. Edaka

    Edaka King

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2015
    Messages:
    703
    Calendar could unlock both forest and jungle chopping. Bronze working could receive the -2 turns to chop as a compensation and to keep the flavor. Wasn't there a discussion that chopping as a means to boost production is a weak tactic at the moment anyway?

    Unlocking chopping anywhere not directly in the way of calendar (read: plantations) doesn't deal with the complications of improving forest luxuries.
     
  12. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    4,881
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    While I think that having chopping for both forest and jungle in the same place makes sense, I this will cause a major problem with the Ancient tech tree. Bronze working will be a totally barren tech.

    Imagine playing celts with calendar chop. There's would be nothing worth getting on Bronze working. Just a wonder you don't need and iron which you don't care about until you're well into classical and want forges/swordsmen up.

    If you are going to talk about this you also need to talk about what you would give to Bronze working to replace chop
     
    Rhys DeAnno likes this.
  13. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    6,073
    I consider getting my super awesome UU a pretty decent reason to get Bronze Working.
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  14. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    4,881
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    You don't get the celtic UU on bronze working, it's moved a tech level earlier. That's the point, if you move 1 more thing off Bronze working the tech is farcical.
     
    CrazyG likes this.
  15. andersw

    andersw King

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2008
    Messages:
    751
    Location:
    sweden
    Also forest iron is a thing, if you play for early swords (or as Rome) skip calendar and get forest iron ... well that ... is not optimal.
    Id rather have it as is now.
    Would 2hammers on plantation for herbalist be too strong? I guess that would also unintentionally also boost camps, fur and truffles in particular, bison would actually need it.
     
  16. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    6,073
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  17. LifeOfBrian

    LifeOfBrian Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2019
    Messages:
    207
    That's why I asked if it were possible to set up a system where you unlock forest chopping either at calendar or bronze working, whichever you research first. That way civs that go the bronze working/iron working/warmongering route can still get their early iron without having to research calendar and the civs that wish to beeline plantations can get them without having to research mining and bronze working.
     
    BiteInTheMark likes this.
  18. Teholb

    Teholb Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2012
    Messages:
    199
    This feels like a good compromise to avoid the mentioned chop benefits issue. I wonder if it would be simple to implement, though?
     
  19. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    4,881
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    i think this remains the most sensible solution, and would be an improvement over the current system. I would make 1 minor change though:
    - removing forest/jungle is available at agriculture, no :c5production:production from chopping.
    - :c5production:Production from chopping is unlocked at bronze working for BOTH forest and jungle.
    - Instant :c5production:bonus from chopping increased slightly to make teaching to bronze rewarding enough to bother.
     
  20. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    4,881
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    Moving the chop discussion back to its proper thread.
    But... this is already possible in the situation we have now. Both calendar and bronze don’t require you to reveal deer before learning to chop. I haven’t seen the AI chop plain forests in the early game. If anything, the AI has the opposite problem, where they tend to underuse their workers.

    at any rate, this would be extremely easy to handle re:AI logic. If the AI has not researched bronze working for the :c5production:production on chopping and there not a visible resource on that tile there is no reason to chop. So, tell the AI not to chop. All they stand to do is lose an early 2:c5food:1:c5production: tile; if they get no benefit without bronze then there is only 1 right answer for optimal AI behaviour.

    What do you propose should be added to bronze working to prevent it from just being an empty tech if chopping were to be moved off of it, as in options 2 or 3? Would you want to move well back?
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020

Share This Page