Proposal for the forested plantations issue

[black213]

Introducing slash-and-burn as a way to clear vegetation! Available on turn 0 but gives less/no production. It's both intrinsic to the Civ theme and a fix to forested plantation resource starts.

 

[crdvis16]

Could also just give calendar both forest and jungle removal. The main issue I see is that you have to hit 2 different 2nd level techs to improve forested plantations whereas jungled plantations seem in a good spot.

 

[Heinz_Guderian]

Could also just give calendar both forest and jungle removal. The main issue I see is that you have to hit 2 different 2nd level techs to improve forested plantations whereas jungled plantations seem in a good spot.

The flavor in that is also absolutely ridiculous, I realise it isnt the exact same thing but to have different techs for cutting down jungle and forest just feels wrong.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Vanilla Civ had forest removal unlocked at Mining. Is there a specific reason VP moved away from that?

 

[ASCII Guy]

Maybe Animal Husbandry should unlock forest removal.

 

[Recursive]

If it's available too early, it could mess with the balance of Stonehenge and other early Wonders (since forest removal gives a fair amount of Production at that stage). Civs with a forest/jungle start would have an advantage.

 

[ASCII Guy]

If it's available too early, it could mess with the balance of Stonehenge and other early Wonders (since forest removal gives a fair amount of Production at that stage). Civs with a forest/jungle start would have an advantage.

I feel like forest/jungle starts need a buff anyways.

 

[CrazyG]

We could just move forest chopping to mining. I think almost everybody researches mining, right?

 

[andersw]

For the very early yields the forest on the plantations arent horrible (better yields than jungle plantations), its the combination that plantations are worse than mine/quarry with the extra worker turns.
But I either reroll start or take it as a more challenging start depending on my mood, it will ofc hurt the AI when they start in certain locations like that.

 

[LifeOfBrian]

Any possibility for forest chopping to unlock when you discover either bronze working or calendar?

 

[Edaka]

Calendar could unlock both forest and jungle chopping. Bronze working could receive the -2 turns to chop as a compensation and to keep the flavor. Wasn't there a discussion that chopping as a means to boost production is a weak tactic at the moment anyway?

Unlocking chopping anywhere not directly in the way of calendar (read: plantations) doesn't deal with the complications of improving forest luxuries.

 

[pineappledan]

While I think that having chopping for both forest and jungle in the same place makes sense, I this will cause a major problem with the Ancient tech tree. Bronze working will be a totally barren tech.

Imagine playing celts with calendar chop. There's would be nothing worth getting on Bronze working. Just a wonder you don't need and iron which you don't care about until you're well into classical and want forges/swordsmen up.

If you are going to talk about this you also need to talk about what you would give to Bronze working to replace chop

 

[Stalker0]

Imagine playing celts with calendar chop. There's would be nothing worth getting on Bronze working.

I consider getting my super awesome UU a pretty decent reason to get Bronze Working.

 

[pineappledan]

You don't get the celtic UU on bronze working, it's moved a tech level earlier. That's the point, if you move 1 more thing off Bronze working the tech is farcical.

 

[andersw]

Also forest iron is a thing, if you play for early swords (or as Rome) skip calendar and get forest iron ... well that ... is not optimal.
Id rather have it as is now.
Would 2hammers on plantation for herbalist be too strong? I guess that would also unintentionally also boost camps, fur and truffles in particular, bison would actually need it.

 

[Stalker0]

You don't get the celtic UU on bronze working, it's moved a tech level earlier. That's the point, if you move 1 more thing off Bronze working the tech is farcical.

 

[LifeOfBrian]

While I think that having chopping for both forest and jungle in the same place makes sense, I this will cause a major problem with the Ancient tech tree. Bronze working will be a totally barren tech. /.../ If you are going to talk about this you also need to talk about what you would give to Bronze working to replace chop

Also forest iron is a thing, if you play for early swords (or as Rome) skip calendar and get forest iron ... well that ... is not optimal.
Id rather have it as is now.

That's why I asked if it were possible to set up a system where you unlock forest chopping either at calendar or bronze working, whichever you research first. That way civs that go the bronze working/iron working/warmongering route can still get their early iron without having to research calendar and the civs that wish to beeline plantations can get them without having to research mining and bronze working.

 

[Teholb]

Introducing slash-and-burn as a way to clear vegetation! Available on turn 0 but gives less/no production. It's both intrinsic to the Civ theme and a fix to forested plantation resource starts.

This feels like a good compromise to avoid the mentioned chop benefits issue. I wonder if it would be simple to implement, though?

 

[pineappledan]

Introducing slash-and-burn as a way to clear vegetation! Available on turn 0 but gives less/no production. It's both intrinsic to the Civ theme and a fix to forested plantation resource starts.

i think this remains the most sensible solution, and would be an improvement over the current system. I would make 1 minor change though:
- removing forest/jungle is available at agriculture, no production from chopping.
- Production from chopping is unlocked at bronze working for BOTH forest and jungle.
- Instant bonus from chopping increased slightly to make teaching to bronze rewarding enough to bother.

 

[pineappledan]

Moving the chop discussion back to its proper thread.

The AI starting workers are probably going to clear forests and then discover deer on that tile

But... this is already possible in the situation we have now. Both calendar and bronze don’t require you to reveal deer before learning to chop. I haven’t seen the AI chop plain forests in the early game. If anything, the AI has the opposite problem, where they tend to underuse their workers.

at any rate, this would be extremely easy to handle re:AI logic. If the AI has not researched bronze working for the production on chopping and there not a visible resource on that tile there is no reason to chop. So, tell the AI not to chop. All they stand to do is lose an early 21 tile; if they get no benefit without bronze then there is only 1 right answer for optimal AI behaviour.

What do you propose should be added to bronze working to prevent it from just being an empty tech if chopping were to be moved off of it, as in options 2 or 3? Would you want to move well back?