Proposal: Ranged Naval Unit Promotion Tree Rework

[pineappledan]

Hello,

I have a bit of a bone to pick with the Naval Ranged promotion lines.

Spoiler Naval Promo Lines :

So here are some issues I see with this setup:

• Indomitable is a really, really good promotion. Very flexible with the plague immunity.
  • Why is this very pickable, defensive utility promotion Only on the Targeting line? It's exactly as necessary and useful a pick-up on the Bombardment line.
  • Why is this promotion a prereq for Logistics? It's already a great promotion, it doesn't also need to be in-line with the best promotion in the tree.
  • Not only is Indomitable a great promotion on its own, it is a much better promotion than Broadside, which you are forced to pick up if you are aiming for Logistics down the Bombardment line.
• Shrapnel rounds gives a big bonus vs land units, but is on the anti-city line. This is like giving the land melee Shock line a big +100% siege promotion right at the end. This isn't in the theme with the rest of the promotion tree, and it's the only promotion I am aware of in the game that works like a sort of "diversity" pick, giving the other side's main bonus as a tier 4 on the opposite side, meaning you have to be lvl 8 to max land unit damage.
• England's Ship of the Line gets Indomitable for free, which means that UU has instant access to logistics at 10XP. That means the SotL gets the 1st and 2nd most powerful promotions basically for free. This change was made specifically to take logistics Away from the SotL, but all it managed to do was make the unit even stronger.

Proposal:

• Make Indomitable available as a tier 4 leaf promotion to both Targeting III and Bombardment III, and remove it as a prereq tech to Logistics
• Move Shrapnel Rounds to be unlocked by Targeting III
• Make Shrapnel Rounds the Prereq tech to Logistics for the Targeting line

Maybe this would also require some small number tweaks, since promotion priorities are shuffled around a bit; I think Shrapnel could probably be reduced to 35% if it's made a logistics line promotion, for instance.

 

[Stalker0]

So in a nutshell:

1) Bombardment gains Indomitable (and nothing else if I'm not mistaken).
2) The power route for Targetting would be Targetting III -> Shrapnel Rounds -> Logistics.

So this would shift naval ranged into a more anti-land route as opposed to anti-boat route in the later part of the game, as I would expect to see a large increase in shrapnel rounds as compared to indomitable, at least for earlier ships. Later ships that you don't think are going to get to Logistics you might take into indomitable.

The biggest change this will do is make ranged units into coastal slaughterers. Targetting's innate CS bonus + shrapnel rounds bonus + logistics will rip land units to pieces... but at the cost of some ranged defense and boarding immunity.

I do think sharpnel would need to be nerfed, as 50% would be way too much combined with the innate CS bonus of targetting.... but otherwise I could see the concept.


The fundamental question is whether people would like to see ranged naval ships lose some defense in exchange for a much stronger anti-coastal power?

 

[phantomaxl1207]

I would say that Splash Damage NOT leading to Logistics makes its opportunity cost higher than it should be. (I wondered why and then I remembered how the Ranged and Siege promotion lines look like.)

I would like to see Supply moved down to Bombard II to facilitate City Sieges.

+1 to lowering Shrapnel Rounds down to 35%.

 

[azum4roll]

So Targeting III unlocks Shrapnel Rounds, Indomitable, Supply and Splash Damage, while Bombardment III unlocks Indomitable, Supply and Broadside only?

 

[pineappledan]

So Targeting III unlocks Shrapnel Rounds, Indomitable, Supply and Splash Damage, while Bombardment III unlocks Indomitable, Supply and Broadside only?

In total, Broadside would have the same number of promotions while Targeting has 1 more. Perhaps we can think of a an extra, 4th tier 4 promotion for Broadside III?

 

[Heinz_Guderian]

Off topic but on a related subject, does anyone ever pick field for siege weapons? Feels like that should get a rework too.

 

[Stalker0]

Off topic but on a related subject, does anyone ever pick field for siege weapons? Feels like that should get a rework too.

sure I use field plenty in the later game.

 

[Stalker0]

In total, Broadside would have the same number of promotions while Targeting has 1 more. Perhaps we can think of a an extra, 4th tier 4 promotion for Broadside III?

there is no rule that every promotion line has to have the same amount of promotions, it’s just about ensuring choice that makes sense for the roll. I mean 9 out of 10 times I’m picking broadsides, as anti-city is the very reason I took the line in the first place

 

[Closed Sky]

Off topic but on a related subject, does anyone ever pick field for siege weapons? Feels like that should get a rework too.

I go with 2 siege three into range catapults, and 1 three field into logistics. Volley isn't that useful to sacrifice range IMO, cover is deceptively strong on siege units in tight spaces. Barracks + Orders or Armories you are nearly at two promotions from the start. Damage difference is negligible initially. When you have largely open terrain enemies that requires cities to be surrounded anyway, you can go with two field. They get range and indirect fire later anyway and double EXP is amazing on any logistics unit.

 

[Thibix Magnus]

what should happen to the ship of the line with that rework? Start with srapnel rounds? Or just logistics and be done with it? It is one of the latest UU, I don't mind its current power level (people tend to fear netherlands naval a bit more I feel), and generally logistics suits well its historical advantage based on superior training and reload rate (iirc). Otherwise it could be given "fast learner", and/or a "great admirals" promotion.

 

[pineappledan]

It could just keep indomitable, but the promo doesn’t lead to anything else now.

 

[Heinz_Guderian]

I do think that it is a bit crazy that england would start with the two best promotions in the game on their UUs (with 3/4UC) in range/logistics

 

[pineappledan]

I do agree it is a bit crazy that England has such powerful UU(s). Frigates are already very good base units; a unique one doesn't need much of a push. This change would nerf England a bit without changing anything about them.

 

[KlHannibal2]

I have no concept of how to change naval ranged promotions, but here is my experience using the current setup.

I mostly take the targeting line because I first have to win naval superiority and then kill defending land units around a city before I have a chance of taking it. I only get a few ships with bombardement after I have 10 to 20 targeting ships.

Interestingly, I don't value indomitable as high. I usually have enough melee ships so my ranged ships don't get melee attacked. I would always take broadside or shrapnel rounds over indomitable if they were on the path from targeting to logistics.

I feel melee ships are better than ranged in the early and mid game as they get blitz much faster than the others get logistics.

 

[Rekk]

Move Logistics to Supply.

• England's Ship of the Line gets Indomitable for free, which means that UU has instant access to logistics at 10XP. That means the SotL gets the 1st and 2nd most powerful promotions basically for free. This change was made specifically to take logistics Away from the SotL, but all it managed to do was make the unit even stronger.

Note that the code tries to give Breacher to Ship of the Line (the naval melee promotion: +10% defense per adjacent enemy, 15 damage to units adjacent to the killed unit). It didn't work, but that doesn't mean we can't make it work.

 

[pineappledan]

Move Logistics to Supply.

Supply => logistics is interesting, because they are thematically similar, but I don't think players would like having to pick up a non-combat option so they can get to their big combat promo.

What do other people think?

 

[Stalker0]

Supply => logistics is interesting, because they are thematically similar, but I don't think players would like having to pick up a non-combat option so they can get to their big combat promo.

What do other people think?

Its a solid nerf to ships, supply has its uses but I think its a nerf as opposed to combat promotions, but again logistics is so good I'll make the sacrifice (again on earlier ships, I might not do it for later ships if I don't think I'll get to logistics).

So the question is, do you want to nerf ships?


At least with the shrapnel rounds idea we aren't "nerfing" ships as much as shifting their focus, ranged ships lose some defense and gain anti-land power. We can argue whether that's good or not, but its still quite useful. Supply on the other hand has much more limited use with ranged ships and will mean the ship is just straight up weaker than it was before.

 

[Gidoza]

I have a question, a proposal, and a comment.

My question: For targeting - the first bonus is 10% CS against land and melee, but it doesn't say RCS. Is this to imply that it only gets a defensive bonus from this promotion unless it is attacking units below 50 HP?


My proposal: Rather than nesting Logistics behind a particular promotion, perhaps it could straightforwardly be available to all ships when they hit a certain level. The simple reason for this is that with Logistics being as useful as it is, it actually makes choosing promotions pretty bland as you precisely need to take certain ones - save an emergency to take something else, there's no incentive to diversify the palette of promotions.

I think it was also once suggested that Logistics should not give XP on the second attack, which for me would still make it a strong choice, but not such a serious must-have as it presently is. Must-haves just shouldn't exist.

Supply => logistics is interesting, because they are thematically similar, but I don't think players would like having to pick up a non-combat option so they can get to their big combat promo.

What do other people think?

While it's not exactly the same as what I propose above, it's in the same genre of an appropriate nerf, so I like it.

 

[Rekk]

My question: For targeting - the first bonus is 10% CS against land and melee, but it doesn't say RCS. Is this to imply that it only gets a defensive bonus from this promotion unless it is attacking units below 50 HP?

Combat Strength modifiers always modify Ranged Combat Strength.

I think it was also once suggested that Logistics should not give XP on the second attack, which for me would still make it a strong choice, but not such a serious must-have as it presently is. Must-haves just shouldn't exist.

It's been suggested for years, yeah.