Proposal: Rework of Order’s Geurilla Warfare Tenet

[Stalker0]

It's not like you're putting ranged adjacent to enemy cities.

machine guns swarms can do a fine job weakening cities.

 

[Phosphoraptor]

full heal mechanics are rare, and gives Order a uniquely strong ability to keep momentum on a invasion.

This reminded me of the mobility and thus quick domination victory Air Supremacy from Autocracy gave. If Order is to be competitive with Autocracy for Domi there is all the more reason to have this mechanic that shaves off turns on conquests. This is even more important in games where you are on the clock against other victory types. We assume that the player already has the firepower to take any city and capital in a few turns (should be a hard prerequisite for Domination anyways) and the bottleneck is the turns spent moving to and setting up there. Autocracy saves turns by teleporting your army there, while Order can save turns by bypassing the wait time for unit healing this way.

 

[pineappledan]

Should I put this to a poll in the main forum then?

 

[Stalker0]

Should I put this to a poll in the main forum then?

which options? We had a lot of discussion but I don’t know if any idea really captured any strong interest

 

[pineappledan]

Just option 2 in the OP. Force it into a yes change/no stay the same vote. If we had all agreed on a unanimous direction, there would be little point in a vote. It’s precisely because the discussion broke off into many different directions that we need a unipolar poll to get a resolution.

 

[Stalker0]

Just option 2 in the OP.

I would argue though that this idea didn't get any more enthusiasm than the various other ideas bounced around in the thread. I don't see a reason to single it as the one poll choice. I think you can afford a few ideas in a poll, the key is:

1) No multi-choices. Multi-choice poll completely ruin the statistics, its basically impossible to utilize with the sample numbers we have.

2) You can probably get away with 3 option (aka 3 proposals and 1 "no change" option).


The other option of course is just to start with a generic "should we change this" type poll. Again, considered the lack of support for any one thing, this maybe a scenario where people just don't want to change anything.

 

[Rekk]

1) No multi-choices. Multi-choice poll completely ruin the statistics, its basically impossible to utilize with the sample numbers we have.

Approval voting is... the method to use when there are lots of options to a single result and low numbers of voters.

 

[pineappledan]

With not a lot of participation, that's precisely the situation where you DON'T want to split votes into 4 options.

The discussion went quiet for 10 days. I heard a lot more different reasons why people would want/not want a change, responded and radically reworked the initial proposal as a result, and very few people besides Stalker posted full alternative designs. Seems like the right time to force a vote.

 

[Phosphoraptor]

where poll

 

[pineappledan]

Poll posted on main forum

 

[Thibix Magnus]

very few people besides Stalker posted full alternative designs. Seems like the right time to force a vote

well not to be petty or complaining, but I wouldn't have minded some feedback about the alternative I suggested about keeping the guerrilla concept as a diplomatic perk that order currently lacks, imo. Not a criticism to the new T34 tenet that I like, just thinking how to keep the guerrilla concept elsewhere, but having both is not an option in the poll...

 

[pineappledan]

it's cool to re-introduce as T-34 a unit that was removed, but for the same reason it feels bad to remove another, the guerrilla. I wouldn't have any issue having both, but if we don't have any specific model for the T-34 we can simply remove strategic resource requirements for the generic tanks as order tenet.

I don't know what mental arithmetic assigns more weight to preserving any until model over another, or assigns the Free Company unit model no value. Or assigning any value to any unit model, for that matter. The Free Company unit that replaced the Landsknecht is made of 4 new unique unit models, and we added 1 more unit model to the Landsknecht itself to give it guns in the back line. With this shuffle of units and unit models, we actually have more than we did 2 months ago.

I don't mind @Rekk and @Hinin 's idea that Guerillas could make a return as some sort of era- specific unique partisan, but that is a separate discussion from being the main ideology UU, and we can deal with that another time.

If guerilla was to be changed, an alternative design would be to make them invisible like submarines when they are on forests/jungles, marshes, hills, or mountains (they would still ignore ZOC and rough terrain penalty). Though by design they have some overlap with the scout line.

If you try to melee attack a city with an invisible unit, the game crashes.

Pushing further, I could see them as the order perk for diplomatic victory. I would like all ideologies to have unique approaches to all victory conditions, the other 2 have perks for any VC but I feel order lacking in that regard

I don't agree with this sentiment that all ideologies should have bonuses towards all victories. Autocracy only has 1 tenet that gives any science, and there are only 3 T3 ideology tenets. If you don't intentionally allow any ideologies to be weaker for some things than other ideologies then they will feel more homogenous.

 

[Thibix Magnus]

I don't know what mental arithmetic assigns more weight to preserving any until model over another, or assigns the Free Company unit model no value. Or assigning any value to any unit model, for that matter. The Free Company unit that replaced the Landsknecht is made of 4 new unique unit models, and we added 1 more unit model to the Landsknecht itself to give it guns in the back line. With this shuffle of units and unit models, we actually have more than we did 2 months ago.

"I don't know what mental arithmetic" ... what??? why so defensive? I didn't assign more weight, I said I really like the new T-34 concept and would love the guerrilla to stay in some form. Why not the partizan, but I liked its concept in the order ideology. Free company is great and all. But I won't be commenting it further though, it's too often unnecessarily conflictive where I definitely wasn't.

If you try to melee attack a city with an invisible unit, the game crashes.

I don't agree with this sentiment that all ideologies should have bonuses towards all victories. Autocracy only has 1 tenet that gives any science, and there are only 3 T3 ideology tenets. If you don't intentionally allow any ideologies to be weaker for some things than other ideologies then they will feel more homogenous.

thanks, didn't know that for the melee unit. Would be cool to have a ranged one on land at some point. For autocracy, I lack experience with that specific ideology, but many players have found it better than freedom for scientific victory.

And more generally, well that's simply a disagreement on ideologies and victory conditions, I think there is enough complexity to allow for 3 very different styles to reach each type of victory. The only 3 T3 tenets is not an issue, see order and CV.

 

[pineappledan]

I really like the new T-34 concept and would love the guerrilla to stay in some form.

The Guerilla overwrites the Danish Ski infantry for some reason, so we will also be getting back a CS gift-able unit (and its unit model) with this change, in addition to bringing back the Panzer unit model.

The only 3 T3 tenets is not an issue, see order and CV.

You mention this as a defense for why it should be acceptable to have 3 T3 tenets pursuing 4 victory conditions, but I see it as yet another reason why Order is full of jank and poor design.

 

[InkAxis]

With not a lot of participation, that's precisely the situation where you DON'T want to split votes into 4 options.

Approval voting!
It's very easy, just allow people to have more (unlimited) votes.

Maybe in this case if you think we've narrowed down the options, we only need two choices, but otherwise we should always be able to vote for multiple options.

 

[Rekk]

Approval voting!
It's very easy, just allow people to have more (unlimited) votes.

Maybe in this case if you think we've narrowed down the options, we only need two choices, but otherwise we should always be able to vote for multiple options.

In the end, I guess, Stalker0 is talking about polling, not voting. The final results are representative of the community, not the wishes of the entire community itself. That is, our community is larger than 30 people, and so polling and statistical techniques need to be used compared to a direct voting style.

Granted, the voluntary nondirected polling we do here is flawed since only a specific subset of the community visits the forum and isn't necessarily representative of the VP community at large, but it's what we have to work with; which is why Stalker0 has been advocating for few choice, single answer polls.

 

[azum4roll]

Single choice polls are fine, but
1. You have to make sure all choices are distinct
2. It can't be used to determine the second place
3. It doesn't work for numerical choices