Proposed fix to reduce Bloom MM

[Shatner]

I propose we make two versions of the spell Bloom. One works like normal and is unable to spread trees on developed tiles; this version is not available if the caster has the Elven promotion. The other requires the Elven promotion (which is only available to units created by the elven civilizations) and spreads new forests to developed tiles.

The development team has been reluctant to allow bloom to grow trees on developed tiles. The design fear, I'm guessing, was that adopting FoL would allow every non-agnostic civ to have forested improvements by midgame. That would nerf the primary advantage of the elven civilizations. Unfortunately the current implementation of Bloom makes the act of covering elven lands with forests a micro-management chore, requiring you to pillage your own tile, cast bloom, then rebuild. Oi!

This solution allows someone playing as the elves (who are the ones doing the majority of the blooming) to improve their terrain without wearing out their mouse buttons or patience. Since it simplifies the process it should facilitate getting the AI to spread forests in elven lands as well. A more elegant implementation is to make the existing version of bloom behave differently depending on whether the caster has the the Elven promotion. Or you could simply tie the version that can bloom on improved tiles to the Ljosalfar and Svartalfar civilizations themselves (in the same way that only the Khazad civilization can cast Motherload and only the Svartalfar can cast kidnap). However these versions might be too difficult to implement. Or not, I don't actually know.

That said, I have two questions for you all:
1) Are any versions of this revision technically feasible?
2) Are there any balance or gameplay problems I am overlooking?

 

[Ksi]

I would LOVE this. I find it so hard to bloom everywhere if I play on immortal. A unique bloom for the elves wold be beautiful.

 

[slowcar]

good idea!

 

[xienwolf]

This has been proposed before, and I don't think that the team has stated any opinion on it one way or the other. But the main issue is that blocking someone from a certain spell is pretty hard. Essentially the only way to do that would be to create a version of the spell for everyone BUT them. So to do this we would need to have 21 different versions of Bloom, with each one allowing a different Civilization to use it, and with all of them being exactly the same, except the ones for Ljosalfar and Svartalfar, which allow you to not destroy improvements.


However, now that I understand Python a bit better, I can see that it ought to be fairly simple in there to set it up so that if you have the Elven Promotion (or if you are Svartalfar or Ljosalfar controlled) you are allowed to cast it on an improvement, and then have it leave the improvement in place upon casting. Then you would use the same spell, but get different effects from it (much like how Sacrifice is run for Angels. Can be cast in a different location and has a completely different result).

 

[Master_Hugian]

Is it not then possible to have another spell just like bloom except called something else, a sort of Elven Bloom, this would mean you only need to make two copies of it, one for the dark elves and one for the light elves, and both will still be able to cast bloom.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Allowing XML-only spells to add features to tiles with improvements would require an SDK change. It is much easier to make it a single spell that works through python. My first released modmod already make it so that the two elven civs can cast on improvements. My next version will probably let it work in elven cities too.

 

[suedenim]

What are the requirements for Bloom to work right now? It seems you need an undeveloped tile that's, what, either grassland or plains? (Tried to use it in the Desert, and it was greyed out....)

 

[Zechnophobe]

Seems kinda messed up, elves are already about the best perfectionists, this being there one drawback. Why make it more so?

 

[Shatner]

What are the requirements for Bloom to work right now? It seems you need an undeveloped tile that's, what, either grassland or plains? (Tried to use it in the Desert, and it was greyed out....)

Yeah. Grass, plains and maaaaybe tundra (not sure on that last one). Desert and snow are definitely out. Tile must be unimproved (except for a road). So, no forested flood plains.

Seems kinda messed up, elves are already about the best perfectionists, this being there one drawback. Why make it more so?

Yes the elves ARE perfectionists in that they can squeeze the absolute most out of each tile (2 - 3 food, 1 - 2 hammers, 4 - 6 commerce + 1 happy and 1/2 healthy). They also have major incentive to bark up the terraforming tree (nature magic and FoL priests). One could easily argue all this synergy makes them overpowered (and several have). However, making the use of this synergy a painful, micromanagement intensive ORDEAL does not actually correct any imbalances, it just makes you enjoy the game less. And that, pretty much at first principle, is to be avoided within a game. Sure, hit the elves with the nerf-bat but don't punish the player who's following the game's own mechanics to their logical conclusion (i.e. elves covering their empire with trees).

 

[suedenim]

Yeah. Grass, plains and maaaaybe tundra (not sure on that last one). Desert and snow are definitely out. Tile must be unimproved (except for a road). So, no forested flood plains.

Tundra does, in fact, work, much to my surprise. Incidentally, I've seen some spells that say they "upgrade" terrain; what's the exact hierarchy? I'm a little wary of trying that because I'm not always sure what might be considered "better" actually fits my needs.

 

[Mailbox]

I've always thought it's strange that the elves don't have some sort of growth limiting factor, considering how powerful their cities are throughout the game.

 

[Master_Hugian]

To me the elves limiting factor is that that have no siege equipment and in my opinion are not very good on the offensive (barring march of the trees attack)

 

[Niveras]

Tundra does, in fact, work, much to my surprise. Incidentally, I've seen some spells that say they "upgrade" terrain; what's the exact hierarchy? I'm a little wary of trying that because I'm not always sure what might be considered "better" actually fits my needs.

Ice -> Tundra/Desert -> Plains -> Grassland. This also works with Flood Plains (which are deserts by default), which gives you an extra 1 food per upgrade (meaning 4/0/1 plain/floodplains and 5/0/1 grassland/floodplain; note plain/floodplain doesn't provide the 1 hammer of regular plains). I think it's safe to say its a beneficial change unless it's a plains hill.

 

[Vehem]

Allowing XML-only spells to add features to tiles with improvements would require an SDK change. It is much easier to make it a single spell that works through python. My first released modmod already make it so that the two elven civs can cast on improvements. My next version will probably let it work in elven cities too.

I also made the exact same changes as Magister to my personal version for a while. Works fine if you just move all the functionality back into Python as it was several versions ago.

 

[kumquatelvis]

This should work if you consider that there is already a race specific spell (Dwarves get Repair).

 

[Mewtarthio]

This should work if you consider that there is already a race specific spell (Dwarves get Repair).

Yes, but is there any spell that excludes a particular race? It's especially tricky given that there is no "Human" promotion.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The problem isn't making it apply to only certain races, it is making it work at all without changing the SDK.


Also, keep in mind that the two Elven civs actually different racial promotions, for purely graphical reasons, so if you made an elven version you would either need 2 identical spells or a python requirement to use the elven spell. You would probably still need a python requirement on the normal version so that the elves don't have both versions (either that or a significant xml schema/SDK change to allow promotions to block spells, which would actually be pretty useful I think).

Overall, it makes mores sense to leave Bloom as one spell that works through python, like I did in my modmod.

 

[Zechnophobe]

Yes the elves ARE perfectionists in that they can squeeze the absolute most out of each tile (2 - 3 food, 1 - 2 hammers, 4 - 6 commerce + 1 happy and 1/2 healthy). They also have major incentive to bark up the terraforming tree (nature magic and FoL priests). One could easily argue all this synergy makes them overpowered (and several have). However, making the use of this synergy a painful, micromanagement intensive ORDEAL does not actually correct any imbalances, it just makes you enjoy the game less. And that, pretty much at first principle, is to be avoided within a game. Sure, hit the elves with the nerf-bat but don't punish the player who's following the game's own mechanics to their logical conclusion (i.e. elves covering their empire with trees).

Micro Management? Not sure what you mean, you still have to tell your little mage to go around blooming everywhere, how does this prevent that?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The way it currently is, you have to have a unit raze an existing improvement (workers and priests of the leaves cannot destroy improvements), then cast bloom, then rebuild the improvement. In the case of cottages/villages/towns it may take several turns to pillage, then a lot longer to grow back after you've rebuilt (which will take longer than normal because elven workers are slow).

It requires using 3 different units instead of 1, and takes a lot longer.

 

[Zechnophobe]

Hmm, yes, but that's like saying that workers should move 3 squares, to lower micromanagement, or something. This isn't simply a stress on your clicking faculties, but an actual tactical modifier. Cottages DO grow slowly, so don't build them on squares without forests until you've bloomed. Same way that construction lets farms spread irrigation, so does bloom let you put cottages/farms up without needing to resow them later.

Edit: That said, 'auto terraform' would be awesome as an order to give to casters. Auto turn Ice into tundra, or desert into plains, would really cut down on micro in terraforming.