Prostitution & Porn Legality/Morality?

[JRD]

removed

 

[Narz]

I appreciate what you're trying to do. FWIW, if I knew any more demeaning words to describe drug dealers and bookies I would have used those too.

Are you in a bad mood? You seem a bit meanspirited today.

 

[Narz]

But on the topic of the poll I think prostitution is immoral, but I have no problems with the porn industry. One is clean (ish) the other is seedy and backstreet, especially here.

They're basically the exact same except in porn sometimes the girl knows who they're going to be with & because it's legal it's regulated so no one gets STDs.

 

[_random_]

Er, why isn't there a poll option for being neither moral nor immoral? You know, amoral?

I'm assuming that "moral" means "not immoral" for purposes of the poll.

 

[Fugitive Sisyphus]

I'm assuming that "moral" means "not immoral" for purposes of the poll.

Voted joke answer because of lack of 'amoral' option.

 

[Traitorfish]

I find both tragic because the person never should never have been put into that position and society has failed them. I can only pity people in those positions that they would have to degrade themselves and essentially lose their value as people

Why are those things seen to be innately degrading?

 

[Terxpahseyton]

An interesting point. One could argue that prostitutes, in a society that did not so consistently attempt to marginalise them, would be among the more fulfilled members of the proletariat, because they have far more immediate control over their means of production. Given that both collectivisation and freelancing are both rather straightforward models for prostitutes, they arguably have the potential to become rather less alienated than many wage workers.

This is one of the most hilarious things I have read on this board.

 

[Traitorfish]

This is one of the most hilarious things I have read on this board.

Only if you consider prostitution to be inherently lumpenproletarian. I am not sure that this is the case even today.

 

[remake20]

I voted both are moral, though I don't quite think that, however I don't consider them immoral. So put me in between.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Only if you consider prostitution to be inherently lumpenproletarian. I am not sure that this is the case even today.

My amusement was fairly unrelated to the quality of your post Hard to explain why, but the way you managed to wrap up prostitution in the core rhetorics of Marxism just made me laugh very hard. Maybe some remaining immaturity on my part.

But to comment on the actual content: So essentially you are suggesting that being screwed by random strange people holds no negative influence on once psychological well-being in itself, but said negative influence is only a product of the prejudices ingrained in our societies. For example by lowering the prostitute's sense of self-worth.

Well my impression is that it is literally unnatural for the average women to enjoy that, as this job inevitably reduces heir qualities to those of a chunk of meat, but not a complex person. And I feel that at the workplace and especially for a woman it is essential to be appreciated for the latter for a healthy psych.
And I feel that the direct relation to the created product does little to negate that.

The only way to avoid this I see in a society where good-quality sex for bugs is associated with remarkable mental skills / creativity / somehting like that. But just as cleaning the toilet is not and will not be associated with such qualities, sex for bugs will not be (both requiring no special skills). Which by the way reminds me that a toilet cleaner also has a very close relationship to his or her product.

 

[civ_king]

I don't like the word slut because I don't understand what makes one a slut. You can't rag on someone for having too much sex, because you cant decide how much sex is too much sex.

I will however grant you that there are many people in this world who will have sex because they feel they're pressured to for one reason or another rather than for the pleasure of having sex.

But words like slut and whore are just belittling and can do a lot of harm to a person's self esteem. Having someone call you a slut or whore can make it hard to feel comfortable about sex. These words imply that you've got a shameful sexual history and really no one should be ashamed of what they're doing.

Sex can be emotional and sacred to you or it can be something you just do for pleasure. Do it as much as you want but do it safe and do it well.
Doing it more often than another person does not make you less than or a "slut".

I don't believe there is such a thing as a slut and I really hope this word goes out of usage.

sleeping around with many people increases the chance for you to get and spread STDs, so yes there should be a social stigma
if you are having lots of sex with one person it isn't as bad because the STDs are confined between you two, though if you are having sex more than once a day you should slow down

What does that mean?

slut implies a promiscuous woman and wannabe play is a (generally dumb) guy who thinks it's cool to have sex with many people

They're basically the exact same except in porn sometimes the girl knows who they're going to be with & because it's legal it's regulated so no one gets STDs.

they still get STDs, condoms have a failure rate

Why are those things seen to be innately degrading?

it is effectively sexual slavery to make ends meet

 

[kill fire]

Being a prostitute is no more if not less degrading than the average persons job .

 

[Traitorfish]

My amusement was fairly unrelated to the quality of your post Hard to explain why, but the way you managed to wrap up prostitution in the core rhetorics of Marxism just made me laugh very hard. Maybe some remaining immaturity on my part.

Ah, well, that I understand; I will admit to staring at the screen for several minutes after making the original post, trying to figure our how I'd reached the point at which I used "means of production" in reference to a vagina. I'm not entirely certain that it was what Marx had in mind.
So my apologies for my humourlessness. Chalk it up to over-sensitivity on my part.

But to comment on the actual content: So essentially you are suggesting that being screwed by random strange people holds no negative influence on once psychological well-being in itself, but said negative influence is only a product of the prejudices ingrained in our societies. For example by lowering the prostitute's sense of self-worth.

Well my impression is that it is literally unnatural for the average women to enjoy that, as this job inevitably reduces heir qualities to those of a chunk of meat, but not a complex person. And I feel that at the workplace and especially for a woman it is essential to be appreciated for the latter for a healthy psych.
And I feel that the direct relation to the created product does little to negate that.

The only way to avoid this I see in a society where good-quality sex for bugs is associated with remarkable mental skills / creativity / somehting like that. But just as cleaning the toilet is not and will not be associated with such qualities, sex for bugs will not be...

I think that makes very particular assumptions about the nature of sex work, which, while not unreasonable in reference to the industry as is found in most of the world, does not necessarily represent the innate nature of such occupations. It seems rooted, I would suggest, in a traditional understanding of sexuality- particularly female sexuality; tellingly, you only reference female prostitutes, which, while certainly the majority, hardly represent the entirety of sex workers- which I would not hold to be a particular useful guide to any essential or invariable human attitudes towards sex and sexuality, at the very least not to the point where I would begin prescribing social mores or legislation off the back of it.
I'm also not sure about this "complex person" stuff; I, for example, am employed stacking shelves, a job which, 90% of the time, demands little more of me than the ability to move boxes of onions around without either dropping them or falling over. There is no recognition of me as a "complex person", no appreciation of me as an individual, just labour, and a pay-cheque. To the supermarket which employs me, I am little more than a "chunk of meat"; that they are interested in my ability to lift vegetables rather than to perform erotic services doesn't exactly change that relationship, again suggesting that you only consider it exceptional in his case because sex is involved, and that this necessarily renders it drastically more demeaning or psychologically damaging.
Remember, human beings are different. How you relate to sex is not representative of how others relate to sex, so it's unwise to assume such absolutes. Sex work would probably be ill-advised for some individuals, I'm quite sure, but air traffic control work would be equally ill-advised for others; what's important is allowing people, through withdrawal of social prejudices and the provision of proper information, to make intelligent choices about this sort of thing.

...(both requiring no special skills).

That, I would suggest, depends entirely on the quality of prostitute which you are willing to pay for.

Which by the way reminds me that a toilet cleaner also has a very close relationship to his or her product.

And if it wasn't for their endeavour, we'd have pooh all down our toilets and piss all up our walls. I, for one, am not in the habit of disparaging such noble and necessary work.

Just to make it clear, I will state that I am attempting to contest the cultural tendency towards drastic marginalisation of sex workers, not to act as an apologist for the contemporary sex industry, which, I will more than readily acknowledge, is deeply flawed. I simply suggest that the conditions endured by contemporary sex workers are not innate to sex work, any more than the conditions endured by medieval serfs were innate to agriculture.

it is effectively sexual slavery to make ends meet

It can be, but that doesn't mean that it necessarily is. As I say above, agricultural work has, for much of history, been effective slavery, but that doesn't imply that turnip-picking is an innately degrading form of labour. One can't assume that the conditions of the present represent an absolute or eternal template (especially when the conditions don't even form a heterogeneous template, as in this case).

slut implies a promiscuous woman and wannabe play is a (generally dumb) guy who thinks it's cool to have sex with many people

The former is also a slur, while the latter is not (even if the "wannabe" aspect lends it a pejorative air). Telling, I think.

they still get STDs, condoms have a failure rate

Professional pornographic performers actually have a far lower rate of STDs than the rest of the population, due to the strict standards of the industry. One is entirely more likely to contract an STD by engaging in even semi-regular casual sex than by acting as a pornographic performer.

 

[NovaKart]

There are some cultures where high-class prostitutes like the geisha in Japan or the hetaera in ancient Greece had a high status although limited in certain ways. In some ancient cultures there were temple prostitutes. Prostitution is not universally despised.

 

[LucyDuke]

Are you in a bad mood? You seem a bit meanspirited today.

No, I try to use slurs when I find them particularly ridiculous. It just jives better with me than Traitorfish's angle.

slut implies a promiscuous woman and wannabe play is a (generally dumb) guy who thinks it's cool to have sex with many people

Yes, I know what the words mean. I was asking what your post meant.

 

[civ_king]

sorry TF, I just don't know a word that is the male equivalent of slut

 

[Traitorfish]

No, I try to use slurs when I find them particularly ridiculous. It just jives better with me than Traitorfish's angle.

If it's any help, one of the reasons I avoid such terms is the particularly misogynistic flavour that they gain when used by men. It's harder to use such terms ironically when you're part of the class that has historically used them as a tool of oppression; it puts one in mind of a Southern white attempting to "ironically" whip African-Americans.

sorry TF, I just don't know a word that is the male equivalent of slut

"Slut" would be the obvious term, surely?

 

[civ_king]

If it's any help, one of the reasons I avoid such terms is the particularly misogynistic flavour that they gain when used by men. It's harder to use such terms ironically when you're part of the class that has historically used them as a tool of oppression; it puts one in mind of a Southern white attempting to "ironically" whip African-Americans.


"Slut" would be the obvious term, surely?

The definition is promiscuous woman...

 

[Traitorfish]

The definition is promiscuous woman...

Which, as I suggested, is very telling of our society's attitudes towards sexual promiscuity (or perceived promiscuity) in regards to each gender.

 

[Disgustipated]

It's a slur because of the general view towards sex workers. Whether prostitution etc is legal or not, its not going to make the girls any different to the ones who hang around street corners in next to nothing, or the kerb crawlers any more pleasant. Don't give them the time of day to seem valid...its a terrible excuse for a human who spends their time selling themselves to anyone and everyone.

But on the topic of the poll I think prostitution is immoral, but I have no problems with the porn industry. One is clean (ish) the other is seedy and backstreet, especially here.

actually...

most porn does not use condoms, where legalized prostitution (and most illegal stuff in my city) do use condoms.

Now tell me which is cleaner.