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Protection against diplomats?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by njmfff, Aug 1, 2013.

  1. njmfff

    njmfff Prince

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    Hi everyone,

    I recently moved from Immortal difficulty to Diety, and I've played my first game as Zulu, which were awesome. No clue why I haven't tried them before, but Impi just rocks.

    anyway, I had The Aztecs, China and Dutch as my neighbors, and of course, I eventually get into a war (several times) with Monthy, so I pretty much clean him up (took his capital and few of his larger cities).

    On the other side of the map there's Mongolia, who has massive empire (taking almost 1/4 of the map), Theodora and Spain are next to him, and Rome got supertall for some reason, altho he's not doing best because Khan is constantly attacking him (without successes tho).

    Dutch and Thea took Freedom, China and Rome took Order and the rest of us took Autocracy.

    and now, Dutch\Thea\China sent their diplomats into my cities and make huge pressure on my ideology (I am still at positive happiness, but I noticed I got into "Civil Resistance"). Dutch probably has the highest culture\tourism because he was wonder spammer entire game.

    I have no open boarders with any of them, but pressure seems to be getting from TR and Diplomats?

    Is there any way you can fight off Diplomat pressure without declaring war? I know higher tourism will help me, but since Dutch took most (if not all) Cult. Wonders there's not lot of place to get the theming bonuses.

    or should I just knock out Dutch? :lol:
     
  2. phillipwyllie

    phillipwyllie Wannabe Deity

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    Tourism buffs come from open borders, trade routes(if you trade with a civ they get a buff too), shared religion. Tourism penalties come from different ideologies. You could try for a trade embargo against the dutch. you might find many civs would support you.

    War has the advantage that it closes all but the shared religion buffs. If the Dutch is the runaway he needs to be taken out.
     
  3. Hyperion529

    Hyperion529 Prince

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    i think higher tourism is the only available defensive mechanism against ideology pressure other than declaring war and removing the other ideologies. You could try declaring your ideology the world ideology though, that should take some pressure of your people and put some on theirs.
     
  4. njmfff

    njmfff Prince

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    Thanks. Yes, I am familiar with what gives tourism buff, but highest pressure comes from Dutch once he put his Diplomat just sitting in my Capital. :(

    I played as warmonger so I couldn't build all those Cult Wonders, but I didn't neglect my culture\tourism too. I never allow open boarders with AI, I buy theirs, but don't let them have mine.

    He also has most of the CS so there's not much I can do in WC (altho, I've build Forbidden Palace), so I planed on taking out CS that are next to me. This will probably piss off other Civs, but what the heck, they probably all think I am a warmonger anyway. :lol: (I did almost completely take out Monthy, and had several wars with him that I initiated). Taking out CS will also shorten votes of Dutch too.

    I thought of taking out Dutch, altho, my happiness is dropping, so it will take some time to get all of his cities (he's also on the same tech level as me), so I'll probably pay Mongolia to attack him first. They've been in war often and Dutch wants to embargo Mongolia, so my guess is Khan will do it almost free. :lol:

    China will not be huge problem to take out, she went 4 cities tradition and Khan is her neighbor who often attacks her (altho, not successfully), the only problem would be Thea who is runaway (and Freedom civ)
     
  5. ashvin.l

    ashvin.l ITendToLoseALot

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    Actually, this is not true. With different ideologies, there is a 34% penalty and the diplomat buff is only 25%. Still you come out ahead (9% penalty) by having different ideologies. With same ideologies, there can be potentially 34% buff on tourism.

    Note that the tourism is offense, while culture is defense. Assuming you are NOT going for culture victory, shore up your culture to reduce the impact of their tourism. Build as many culture buildings as you can afford to. Use all your GWA to either give you culture (political treatise, GAs). Musicians unfortunately, cannot give you culture. Use them in offense (concerts).
     
  6. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    Incorrect.
    For Cultural Victory, Tourism is offense (helps you win cv), culture is defense (stops someone else from winning cv)

    For Ideological unhappiness, Tourism is Offense AND Defense (so is Culture)


    As for the Diplomat, I think war is the only way to boot them out.
     
  7. Qbone

    Qbone Chieftain

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    Improving your tourism doesn't protect you from diplomats. It's improving your Culture that does. Tourism is a blade, while Culture is a shield. You could have 0 tourism, but still be immune to the tourism influence of other civs if you have extremely high culture.
     
  8. Rob5000

    Rob5000 Chieftain

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    How can you tell if the AI places a diplomat in your capital? I've yet to see this happen to me (King)
     
  9. njmfff

    njmfff Prince

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    Yeah, I eventually had to go into war with Dutch, since he was spamming lots of TR into my empire. I took three CS that were close to me, which he protected, so he attacked me. :lol: (me DOWing him and proposing to ban him at WC also helped). Then I dropped few nukes on him which hurt his economy.

    Mongolia was willing to fighting WU with me (due to their war history and me being friendly with him entire game. I even vote against Mongolia embargo) and he also fought Theodora, so I dropped on Wu after I was finished with Dutch. :lol: Spain also got involved into mix, attacking Theodora and Rome, and I paid Monthy to attack William.

    I manage to calm down my citizens, since I took that autocracy policy that gives you improved tourism when fighting common enemy (Dutch and Wu) :king:

    You can see it in Culture info panel, select any civ and you should see who has influence over you, how much and why.
     
  10. dexters

    dexters Gods & Emperors Supporter

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    You can also see this if the world congress options on the side of your table is available. If it is, they have a diplomat.

    IMHO, diplomats shouldn't require protection,they're not meant to be offensive/malicious. The tourism buff is modest at best.
     
  11. Aramis604

    Aramis604 Chieftain

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    Do you need an Embassy with the other Civ in order to assign a spy as a Diplomat? If so, getting rid of embassies would further reduce another Civ's ability to exert tourism pressure on you.
     
  12. dexters

    dexters Gods & Emperors Supporter

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    Embassies is your official diplomatic consulate. Having one in AI capital will give you a small relationship boost.

    A diplomat is a spy you can assign to become your liaison in their capital, unrelated to embassies, and gives no diplo bonus outside of perhaps grabbing intrigue you can pass on to another AI you want to befriend and get brownie points from. Thats why I love to put diplomats in my enemies capital. More often than not, they're plotting against my friends.

    You don't need an embassy to have a diplomat. Basically, it's a way for you to check up on AI capital/grab intrigue if you have no interest in stealing their tech and it has the extra bonus of a tourism boost & getting more info on their WC position before voting and being able to trade votes.

    A diplomat is not an embassy and flees during times of war. You can have a spy at all times.
     
  13. Darkflight

    Darkflight Prince

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    I just think it's weird that you can have a diplomat in a country you don't have an embassy with though. Diplomats hang around in embassies don't they? And it is a problem that you can't deny a different civilizations diplomat entry. It makes sense with spies (since they don't enter/stay in the country legally) but a diplomat should need an embassy to stay in.
     
  14. dexters

    dexters Gods & Emperors Supporter

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    That's because they're not the same? Embassies are meant to represent formal diplomatic relations. A diplomat grants abilities embassies do not have and can be seen as a 'special envoy' of sort that usually you see in the news being dispatched around the world.

    There are real world precedents for countries not having embassies but having diplomatic communications through other channels.

    It's quite realistic in that regard.
     
  15. Darkflight

    Darkflight Prince

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    Fair enough I guess.

    But I still think it's weird that I can't deny them access to my country. It's likely it is so because of game balance issues but it still leaves me a little puzzled.
     
  16. dexters

    dexters Gods & Emperors Supporter

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    They can deny your embassy, but not your diplomats, because if they do, you'll just send in the spies.

    I see the logic there. For diplomats to be useful, it has to have the same abilities as spies, that is, the AI has no say where they go. In that sense its symmetrical and fair as the AI can plant in your capital and you have no say either.

    As I noted, diplomats, unlike spies, aren't meant to steal, they're there to collect information and unlock extra diplo abilities. So this idea of fighting against them might be too much of a human feature.

    The human can see and protect against diplomats from big important Civs they dislike, the AI may just be lost in this regard. do they just protect against a civ with high tourism, but what if they're friends. Why not also cancel open borders if it's about tourism and influence.

    It goes places you don't want it to go :p And frankly, having no way to combat diplomats is at this point in the game design, the simplest solution.
     
  17. Pythakoreas

    Pythakoreas Chef Tain

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    If Ideological Unhappiness is due to your tourism being inferior to others, is planting a diplomat in their capital a solution to even out 25% tourism boost?

    Btw I agree with posts in this thread pointing out having diplomats without embassies are weird.
     
  18. Hyperion529

    Hyperion529 Prince

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    as KrikkitTwo already stated, this is only true for the cultural victory condition. with ideology unhappiness it's your own tourism that counts. the ingame advisers are yet again unclear and a bit misleading in this case...
     
  19. phillipwyllie

    phillipwyllie Wannabe Deity

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    The maximum tourism buff I've gotten is +%75 with open borders, trade routes, shared religion, and not having the penalty for different ideologies(ie having the same ideology). Factor in having the great firewall, having completed aesthetics, and having researched internet this will make that civ come under your spell very quickly.

    I tried an experiment in my last game. I didn't build any culture building except the obligatory monument in my capital and focused on war, or the preparation for total war in the modern era. On the turn after I took the least common ideology(Freedom) my cities began to revolt. Regardless of your game winning strategy you must create culture.

    To answer the OP the only defense against a diplomat is either have the same ideology or go to war
     
  20. njmfff

    njmfff Prince

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    Which was kinda my point. :) You can't fight diplomat. The only way is to declare war, and sometimes you don't want that.

    If you're playing with high culture\tourism yourself, then diplomat is not a big deal, but if you play as warmonger, or maybe even for science victory, you would probably have lower culture\tourism then other culture civ.

    In the other of my games, Siam actually won cultural. :cry: I have no idea how, but he had over 900 tourism, while having only four cities. He did spam lot of wonders, but still, 900+ tourism is huge.

    btw, in the same game, Siam complained that I am a warmonger, yet he took autocracy and attacked pretty much every civ other then me (we were on two different parts of the map, so he could not get to me)
     

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