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Protective...

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by obsolete, Dec 21, 2007.

  1. obsolete

    obsolete Deity

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    They're not getting butchered. They are butchering the attackers.

    CG III Mechanized infantry are the ultimate defenders, and this includes vs both AIR and GROUND.

    Don't forget to throw in their 25% fortification bonus.

    Their 25% for the city/fort that is often on a hill.

    Cultural/Trees defense...

    Etc.


    If we were playing vs human opponents then that's different. But vs the AI... I prefer to just let the AI slaughter itself, because it's that stupid.
     
  2. sylvanllewelyn

    sylvanllewelyn Perma-newb

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    That still sounds like a very niche application of the protective trait, and late game too. Usually, the only consolation prize I get from the protective trait is if I start with stone. Then, I build castles and enjoy the +1 trade route.
     
  3. InvisibleStalke

    InvisibleStalke Emperor

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    It applies equally well to longbows and gunpowder units. Did you read ABigCivFan's warmonger game? It wasn't protective but he had a CG3Guerilla3 longbow that just ate attackers. I've used defensive warfare a lot with protective and it works - and is especially good if you have the great wall and just rack up GG points.
     
  4. Porphyrius

    Porphyrius Warlord

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    Up till medieval times i favor attacking melee / siges / a few mounts regardless of protective. Getting enough land early enough is just invaluable, and wars are kinda easier on logistics. A bit more castles are the mere reward for being protective. Sadly the foundation of any victory are placed here and protective helps little.:(

    With grens/riffles and infantry things shape up. The CG tactic described works well with rifles/infantry provided i keep aroun a few cavs to minimize collateral from sieges. My CR melee-> grens or later infan/marin then take action mopping up. Especially on vulnerable coastal cities that now have 2-3 defenders.
    Plus one likely needs land less pressingly now and is often happy with annoying, hindering the strongest opposition.

    With the appearance of tanks and with cavs no longer a valid flanker i think drill promotions are the right path for defenders. Collateral is what gets them not number of attackers. Trouble is defenders see less action and get less xp from it so they are underpromoted. Even as protective getting DIV needs work. I think its better to specialize units in defensive (drill,CR) and offensive (Combat, Pinch/Ambush, GuerillaIII for some). Having a level 8-9 unit that only makes use of half its promotions is a waste.:D
     
  5. Quotey

    Quotey Emperor

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    I guess you could make Charlemagne into a good leader. Build the Great Wall, and grab yourself a couple CG3 units in border cities.. .and... have someone attack you? Get a million GGs, then produce super units to beat the guy up? :/
     
  6. CivCorpse

    CivCorpse Supreme Overlord of All

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    I have done exactly that. Though i put 2-3 cats in each border city and 7-8HA's/knights. when the SoD rolls next to my city. I hit them with the three cats to soften up the spears/pikes, then attack with the mounted units with flanking2. that is enough to kill off every single cat in the stack. Or damage them into uselessness. IIRC I had 3 CGIII drill1 Longbows and 4 combat2Landshects in each city. Two cities were attacked by stacks of over 25 units each. They held the city and only lost 2-3 defenders per city. It gave me time to whip/build more defenders and a small counter-attack force. And 2 GG's in one turn.
     
  7. PimpyMicPimp

    PimpyMicPimp Regrets His Username.

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    Well, I suppose protective means you need less defenders which means less maintenance, but that's a bit of a stretch. I don't totally hate it, but I don't find it all that usefull until gunpowder units are making up your army. The free First strikes is always welcomed and now your attacking units can also be your city defenders. Still, I'd say it's one of the weaker traits for the human player.
     
  8. sylvanllewelyn

    sylvanllewelyn Perma-newb

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    With the large stacks that the AI's use in war since BTS, 3 CG3 longbowmen won't beat off any invasion stack. I mentioned one use for protective: the other would be drafting riflemen, or there's always the Chinese UU.
     
  9. Guardian_PL

    Guardian_PL Emperor

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    Well, I can only say that I admire Sitting Bull at the moment :king: Simply get the stone, build some wonders (StOnEhEnGe, mids) to kick in Philosophical, and just ensure that at one moment in game You'll crank up a LOT of longbows/xbows running vassalage+theocracy. You'll have +3XP from Barracks, +3XP from monument, and +4XP from civics, which makes You a Drill I, CG I unit with 3 promotions You choose! Crossbows can be deadly than, but the best bit is later on, when all those archery units are being upgraded (true, over 200:gold: each unit, but hey - You're philosophical, get a GM or two ;) ) to Riflemen - DrillIV Rifles ROCKS!

    Protective is nice. And very interesting to play :thumbsup:
     
  10. Quotey

    Quotey Emperor

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    Sitting Bull just needs to do a Machinery slingshot. Maybe the best protective leader.
     
  11. PimpyMicPimp

    PimpyMicPimp Regrets His Username.

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    I've yet to face Sitting Bull in an early war. I actually don't think it would be worth it...
     
  12. Guardian_PL

    Guardian_PL Emperor

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    ...And that's the thing with Sitting Bull - his AI is kinda weak, and in single player Natives rarely shine. Average in the beginning, weak as the game progresses. But try to take them in player's hands* - they are brilliant! :goodjob:

    * - sadly, without stone they suck a bit, cause lack of 'mids, wall or Henge is a bit crippling for Philo.
     
  13. InvisibleStalke

    InvisibleStalke Emperor

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    Oh yeah they do.

    There are three situations.

    Border city reachable quickly by AI horse units. Gets walls + castle + CG3 defenders. The goal isn't that they defeat the SOD, just the snipers that the AI loves to throw against border cities.

    Captured AI city. Keep your city raiders out and put your CG units in it. If you face a massive counterattack they will die, but they kill so many that its worth it and your city raiders just take the city back.

    Facing the SOD of an invading AI. Now you need more defenders - lots more. But your cheap castles and walls buy you time to reinforce the city. CG3 units sitting behind castles are no easy capture. The AI will usually try to take down the defenses - which takes a long time. Meanwhile you are whipping and drafting like crazy to ramp up the defenses. When the assault does come, the collateral gets spread over a big stack of defenders and the CG units rule.

    Flanking horse also combine well - build up a few of these and take out the trebs. Then let the assault come against a near full strength castle wall with CG3 defenders sitting behind it.

    Every protective game I've played has ended up with a domination or a military diplomacy win. Its definitely a warring trait and it is useful. I would probably rank it below aggressive and charismatic for warring, but above Imperialistic.
     
  14. Artichoker

    Artichoker Emperor

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    I look at it this way...

    Agressive gives your melee units one good upgrade.

    Protective, on the other hand, gives your archer units two semi-good upgrades...so they even out.

    Both of them help only a slice of your army types. However, once you get access to Longbowmen, they can be used for a high percentage of your forces.

    As far as the production bonuses go, I'd favor the Barracks over the Walls. But then again, it's only a once-per-city type of deal, that involves only a small amount of hammers in the long run.
     
  15. PimpyMicPimp

    PimpyMicPimp Regrets His Username.

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    I've played as him only once, and didn't finish the game :p The sheer number of promotions I could give archery units made them a force to be reckoned with, and once I got Crossbows...ALL UR BASE R BELONG 2 ME LULZ
     
  16. InvisibleStalke

    InvisibleStalke Emperor

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    Played Sitting bull and took Feudalism with the Oracle - now that was awesome. Drill 4 longbows vs archers.
     
  17. troytheface

    troytheface Deity

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    Yes, an Fuedalism slingshot can give you a fierce longbowmen army-

    Start with archers you promote to GuerillaI -aim for GuerillaII then Drill upgrade and you have a unique fighting force- Guerilla2/Drill2.
    Then beeline for rifles. (or Landshriekwhatevers if you are HRE)

    I tried the berated Imperilistic/Protective to see if i could fight using a "weak"
    combo and found it the easiest one of all.
     
  18. Bobbalouie

    Bobbalouie Chieftain

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    If you wanted to really try out guerilla/drill longbows, perhaps try playing as Churchill of the Celts. You're protective, so the Dun builds faster. Then all your archer units start with guerilla I, drill I, and CG I. Add in theocracy, vassalage, barracks and a GG, you can get 3 promotions out of the gate.
     
  19. Grey Fox

    Grey Fox Master of Points

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    Gunpowder units get the free promos from Protective too, so why the upgrade thing?
     

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