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Public Investigation#3: Term3-Elections - Spice Traders

Discussion in 'Civ3 Demo Game: Citizens' started by disorganizer, May 30, 2002.

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  1. disorganizer

    disorganizer Chieftain

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    A anonymous citizen stated that the Spice-Traders Guild started a PM to all members which urged them to vote for their members.

    The citizen noted that this was like the action of a political party, as votes to others were condemned by the PM.

    Since political parties are NOT allowed by the constitution, this would be a major violation of the constitution.

    The discussion is started here.

    If there is no negative post in this thread about the incident, this thread is closed and no poll is held. If there is a minimum of one negative post, a poll will be held.
     
  2. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

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    The Spice Trader's Guild is not a political party, and those PMs were suggestions on who to support. The PMs did not in any way, shape or form say "Vote for these canidates", it said "Support them" - which doesn't imply voting. You can support more than one canidate, but you can only vote for one. If you notice, some where in the same polls, which would defeat the purpose of a vote.

    Personally, I don't know a lot about how politcal parties work (I'm politically-illiterate) :)... So, it wasn't meant as anything political.
     
  3. Falcon02

    Falcon02 General

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    I feel it violates the Constitution, BUT......

    I feel that it is a forgivable offense, so long as it doesn't happen again.
     
  4. disorganizer

    disorganizer Chieftain

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    so i interpret your post right as a proposal for a warning-letter to the spice-traders guild, in person chieftess? or more like a "first and final warning"?
     
  5. Bill_in_PDX

    Bill_in_PDX Grumpy Submariner

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    I am guessing that many citizens exchanged emails regarding whom they would support and why. I think it would be bad to stifle such discussion.

    However, it may do us well to view a copy of this email if it was a "bulk" variety message.

    Bill
    ...in PDX
     
  6. disorganizer

    disorganizer Chieftain

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    Quotes for the pms of another anonymous citizen:


    1st pm:
    The founder of The Spice Trader's Guild has been nominated for the Trade Department for a 2nd term, and for President. Please show your support by voting for Chieftess in the elections. Also show your support for Zur in the councilmember position.

    2nd pm:
    Please show your support for the following canidates that are members of the Spice Trader's Guild:

    Chieftess President and Trade Department
    Zur Councilmember At-Large
    SKILORD Domestic Department and New Cormyr
    Eklektikos Governor of Asphinxia
    Strider Science Department and Trade Department
    crabapple Governor of Normandy


    It seems clear to me that the minimum should be a "First and Final Warning!".
    Only because i believe chieftess if she sais she did not intend to act as a political party and i believe she only wanted to do some campaigning for herself. If i would not believe so, i would also propose harder punishment.
     
  7. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    Personally I think the 'no political parties' clause of the constitution should be removed.
    As for the Spice Traders Guild, it is one of our oldest citizen's organizations and there has been no hint of it being a political party before now.
    Finally, I do not think the constitution even implies that candidates cannot ask for votes.
    No matter what angle I look at this from I do not see an infraction.
     
  8. Bill_in_PDX

    Bill_in_PDX Grumpy Submariner

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    I agree with your interpretation disorganizer.

    Bill
    ...in PDX
     
  9. Duke of Marlbrough

    Duke of Marlbrough The Quiet Moderator Retired Moderator

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    My concerns with this:

    1) If it said to actually not support certain people.

    2) If it said to support only people in the Spice Traders Guild.
     
  10. Falcon02

    Falcon02 General

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    I say First and Final warning (the intent of my original post)
     
  11. disorganizer

    disorganizer Chieftain

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    DOM: i posted the relevant parts of it here. i have a edited copy from [anonymous].
    i think no mod action is required at the moment, though. do you want the pm anyway? i only have an edited copy of the original, but i can pm the citizen who initialized the investigation.
    i will not forward the pm without the citizen giving me his ok for it.
     
  12. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

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    I also thought that since the STG was non-political, you could do that, just like emailing your friends or something... And, I was going to ask for support for people outside of the STG. Again, I think this should be made clear in the const. (I'm not 100% familar with all of the rules yet).
     
  13. Duke of Marlbrough

    Duke of Marlbrough The Quiet Moderator Retired Moderator

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    Hmmm, I obviously type too slow.

    PM 1:
    I don't see this as an issue. People can ask for others support all they want. There is nothing in there about not supporting others.

    PM 2:
    The only thing of any concern is that only members of the Spice Traders Guild are being given support. Do they all have a common goal in the game? In other words, are they working as a team in the game? Or will each of them be doing their jobs as separate individuals?
     
  14. disorganizer

    disorganizer Chieftain

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    PM1:
    i think what brought this to public was the fact that in PM1 it was assumed that if you support the STG you should vote for CT. this was seen as political-partylike acting.

    PM2:
    they do their job as individuals, i assume. but nevertheless we should write a warning to decline the rise of parties in our nation from the start. all parties started as loose groups of individuals, but then got organized to parties.

    DOM: as you see, this will be no mod-forcing thing.
     
  15. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    It seems only natural that a pm from the founder of the Spice Trader's Guild to members of the Spice Trader's Guild about candidates who are also members of the Spice Trader's Guild
    would only include members of the Spice Trader's Guild.

    Issuing an official warning in this case sends the message that citizen's groups cannot endorse candidates, especially those that belong to the group.
     
  16. disorganizer

    disorganizer Chieftain

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    so you are pro warning-letter (or final-warning letter)?
     
  17. Duke of Marlbrough

    Duke of Marlbrough The Quiet Moderator Retired Moderator

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    Well, it sounds like a resume type endorsement. You can't read assumptions into it.

    Whether this was starting to 'act' as a political party is what I'm trying to find out.

    Thanks, but I'll decide that. Since it doesn't seem like they were trying to organize a group to run the game as a 'team' then I won't be taking any 'official' action.

    You guys can still do your element of it, but anytime the rules are possibly violated I may take action on my own. :)
     
  18. disorganizer

    disorganizer Chieftain

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    i just want to make clear here that most of my posts do not come from my mind. i just wanted to enable this thread for anonymous investigation.

    DOM: of course
     
  19. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    I'm with Donsig here. I see no major problem (especially not a Constitutional violation). I don't really want to see political parties in Phoenatica either, although it seems there are underground political groups that don't PM people under a citizen's organization heading. I see plenty of people looking for support or endorsing candidates. I believe I did it under the heading of the Cultural Dept. I wasn't running for office, but so what? Have the person who was offended tell the STG that they no longer wish to receive junk mail from them. Problem solved.
     
  20. Duke of Marlbrough

    Duke of Marlbrough The Quiet Moderator Retired Moderator

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    Thanks. I think we established that.

    Like I said, you guys can do your element of it. People, as individuals, can endorse whomever they want. They just should not be 'representing' anyone (or anything).
     
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