PUBLIC INVESTIGATION - Discussion

[Bill_in_PDX]

Judge Advocate
Public Investigation Discussion Thread

Investigation of citizen/Mayor disorganizer

Overview

In accordance with the Phoenatican Code of Laws, Section E, Point 5. The Judge Advocate's Office hereby opens investigation into the actions of Mayor disorganizer, and the events surrounding revolt in "Delphi County", Kashmir.

The Accusation(s)

Despite this office's request to let the issue pass, as the game itself is now over. Proper request has been filed with this office from multiple citizens, including a cabinet member, and a Governor, demanding this investigation.

Given that no move has been made to close this government in place, and given that public opinion polls advocate keeping our current form of government in place, I find no recourse but to perform my duties and begin the process of the investigation.

Among other possible violations, disorganizer is specifically accused of violating the Constitution, Article B:

Article B. Governing rules shall consist of the Articles of the Constitution, the Code of Laws and the Code of Standards. No laws shall be passed that conflict with an article and no standards shall be used that conflict with a law or an article.

and the Code of Laws, Section D, Point 1:

a Provinces
(1) Provincial borders are geography based and will be approved by the Congress.

The complaintants contend that while Mayor of a city in the Kashmir province, disorganizer:

1) Illegally attempted to establish his own rule over a seperate, independant geographical area.

2) That he posted notice of the same in at least three different threads.

3) That he opened citizen polls in his threads related to this succession, not in accordance with game rules.

Proceedure

The Code of Standards, Section H, fully details the responsibilities of all involved with this investigation. My job is to prosecute the case and shepard the process through to fair completion.

I remind all citizens that Phoenatican law is clear on the issue of assumed innocence. disorganizer is not guilty of any violation until (or if) such time occurs that a majority of citizens vote in a trial.

The requirements of investigation are to follow this process as defined in the CoS:

Point 1 - The allegation was made privately to the JA office as noted above.

Point 2 - After asking the accusor for clarification, the allegations were submitted in proper format for this point.

Point 3 - In addition to this posting, and one in the Judical thread, I have PM'd the Public Defender, and the Accused to notify them of the charges.

Point 4 - This thread itself satisfies point 4, please note also that disorganizer has never been charged or convicted of any violation in the past.

Point 5 - The first two replies to this thread belong to the public defender and the accused DO NOT REPLY TO THIS THREAD UNTIL DISORGANIZER AND THE PUBLIC DEFENDER HAVE POSTED THEIR RESPONSE

Point 6 & 7 - Once responses are posted, then citizen discussion of the charges is allowed and encouraged. This thread will remain open for 48 hrs, or longer at my descretion should effective discussion continue.

At that point a recommendation will be made, and actions taken based upon the results of the discussion, and other laws applicable.

Judge Advocate of Phoenatica

 

[disorganizer]

Hey! I finally found my own PI! Just for myself and me! Wow!
But what a senseless one ;-)

Anyway:
Yes. I admit ;-)
At the endgame i made some fun of revolting just for having a revolt and because THIS IS JUST A GAME and it was interesting i believe to just do something different than always the normal things. This game really need some more off-topic flavor and interesting things to discuss because it becomes boring otherwise.

But something to defend myself would be:
* No harm was done to the game itself as on purpose no changes were made against the already accepted things. For example no build queues were altered nor decission were taken in the chat despite the ones requested directly from me.
* The time for the revolt was carefully chosen at the last chat to not disturb the game
* A Citizen poll was immediately opened in the delphi thread about the separation issue and till yesterday no contra-voice was heard.
* It ended the inter departmental war ;-)

now to get clearer to the points:
ARTICLE: i never proclaimed new province borders. i just declared independance which is not governed by our laws
1) and so? where is the point in the constitution stating i cant? just because it isnt there doesnt mean its not allowed
2) and so? am i not free to post my opinion in any thread i like?
3) i am free to open any informational poll in any way i want. i never proclaimed the citizen ballot to be an official one(!) anyway if everyone posting invalid poll was to be sued we would have no officials


So go forward. SUE ME!

THIS NOTICE HAS BEEN TRANSMITTED VIA SETI DEVICE FROM THE EMBASSY OF PHOENATICA IN APOLYTONIA.


btw:
who brought this forward? or were they brought in anonymously? would be interesting to know ;-)
maybe i send some spec-ops hidden nationality rebel units over to those who dare to interfere with delphi matters ;-)
btw2:
[roleplay]
this is an exclusively delphi internal matter. it would fit our nation best if official positions would not interfere with the internal matters of regions.
[/roleplay]

 

[Eklektikos]

Ok, this looks pretty much like an open and shut case to me.

In response to the accusation of contravention of Article B, I have had a look through the fora to see if I could find a single unconstitutional law, standard or article that Disorganizer had single handedly passed. Unsurprisingly I found none. If someone can find one that I've missed then please post the link in this thread, otherwise I maintain that Dis is innocent of this charge.

Secondly, I do not see any evidence Disorganizer violating CoL, D, 1. Nowhere have I found an example of his claiming Delphi County to be a province, nor of him unilaterally or redefining provincial borders. As I understand it he seceded from Phoenatica entirely, something which as he has correctly stated is not mentioned in the constitution (largely because it's impracticable and no-one imagined that any citizen would be daft enough to attempt it! ), and is consequently not a direct violation.

Finally, in response to the following 3 allegations that Disorganizer:

1. Illegally attempted to establish his own rule over a seperate, independant geographical area.
2. That he posted notice of the same in at least three different threads.
3. That he opened citizen polls in his threads related to this succession, not in accordance with game rules.
   [/list=1]It is expressly permitted for citizens to post in all threads except a small number of functional threads (i.e. turn chat threads). Citizens are also expressly permitted to open polls about game related matters not covered by the mandate of one of the departments, and no department is responsible for dealing with secession. The important term in allegation #1 is attempted. If disorganizer had succeded in usurping real control of Delphi County from the elected power, then that would have been a transgression. However by the time he had declared independance it was already too late to have any effect on the nation as a whole and thus no power was actually usurped. As he said in his above statement, he knew that this was the case and would not have made his declaration in any other situation. All in all it was nothing more than a bit of harmless fun to spice up the end of the demogame. Looking at it in any other way belies a woeful lack of a sense of humour.
   
   I move to dismiss this investigation on the grounds of its lack of merit.
   
   ~the Public Defender of Phoenatica

 

[Shaitan]

I completely agree. This entire thing was very simply a bit of role playing in the same vein as the "inter-departmental civil war".

 

[Almightyjosh]

And now for some discussion...

First of all Eklektikos, you do realise that if the PI is dissmissed the UEP, the IDA and possibly even the MA will have to remove disorganiser by force.

Now, I quote from the Phoenatican Code of Laws:

SECTION D THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH
Point 1) The Senate (Governors)
A) Provinces
(1) Provincial borders are geography based and will be approved by the Congress.

What the usurper has maintained is not that he is seperating from Phoenatica, but that he is breaking away from Kashmir Province.

I quote Disorganiser:
"We, the fine citizens of delphi county, herewith declare our independance from the province of Kashmir."
and again
"As said earlier, delhpi did not declare independance from the country of phoenatica but from kashmir as province."

This very clearly contravenes the point of law stated above. Dis has attempted to redifine the borders of Kashmir by saying that they do not incluse the cities of Delphi or Sunshine Beach and the surrounding area. He has not done so accoring to Congessional approval and is thus in blatant violation.

Again I quote from our Code of Laws:
SECTION D THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH
Point 1) The Senate (Governors)
A) Provinces
(3) Provincial borders shall be defined well ahead of expansion.

As the changes to the provincial borders have also been made well after out nation has been established, not ahead of expansion, Disorganiser has also broken this law.

Again from the Code of Laws:
Article E.
The Legislative Branch will be formed of two houses. The Senate will be formed of the Provincial Governors, each of whom are responsible for the care, management and use of the cities and lands of a province...

Disorganiser:
"We think [we have] the right to decide the measures taken in our lands for ourselves."

Again, this breaches both the law and the spirit of the Consititution. The mayor of a city cannot be in charge of the 'care, management and use of the cities and lands', only a Governor can!

This Principal is stated in the Constitution:
Article A.
...Citizens have the right to assemble, the right to free movement...

I would also raise this point of Lawfrom the COL:
Point 2) Right to Free Movement
B) Citizens choose where they live and may change this location at will.

And now I quote Disorganiser:
All private trespassing will be allowed after searching the tresspassers for weapons. All trade and military travel will be denied.
The borders remain closed until further notice.

As the citizens of Delphi have been unlawfully contained in Delphi and citizen movement is restricted, this law has also been broken.

Disorganiser has broken seveal other laws to lesser degrees.

It must be now obvious that in Law, both that of the Consititution and the COL, Disorganiser is guilty of myrad offences against the citizens of Phoenatica and the laws that bind our nation.


MOD: Duplicate posts removed.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Shaitan
I completely agree. This entire thing was very simply a bit of role playing in the same vein as the "inter-departmental civil war".

I also agree.

Almighty Josh: If you want to continue roleplaying this, please make it clear that you are roleplaying. Use [roleplay]" " [/roleplay] tags to make this clear. Or simply state that you are roleplaying at the beginnign of your post. Accusations often cause tempers to flare, so make sure your intent is clear.

 

[Almightyjosh]

Public Investigations are for when citizens break rules in the Constitution, COL or COS as Disorganiser has clearly done. If you want to treat the act and the PI as roleplay, be my guest, seems logical, but that does not mean that we should ignore breaches of Law.

If found guilty, ti is at the citizens discretion what action to take, at this point we can consider 'role playing'. However, I do not think hiding behind the shield of roleplaying is a fair way to avoid a roleplaying PI. Personally, I think Disorganiser should be given a warning.

 

[Eklektikos]

None of this is actually unconstitutional unless he has the power to enforce these dictates, which he doesn't. He can no more take control of Delphi County in practical terms than I can take control of Greater London in RL. It's pure role play, like your civil-war, which does not have an adverse effect on the demogame and so IMO does not merit a PI.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Eklektikos
None of this is actually unconstitutional unless he has the power to enforce these dictates, which he doesn't. He can no more take control of Delphi County in practical terms than I can take control of Greater London in RL. It's pure role play, like your civil-war, which does not have an adverse effect on the demogame and so IMO does not merit a PI.

Exactly.

 

[Almightyjosh]

YOURE MISSING THE POINT!!
If all we have now is roleplay, then it takes on new meaning!! If we can't remove Dis through this channel then we are forced to use millitary means and cause the slaughter of many innocents. So maybe it's all roleplay but if you won't proceed with a PI then dammit I WANT A ROLEPLAY PI. I'm demanding roleplay satisfation. (thats in the COL too, sortof). So if we are conducting a roleplay PI, roleplay punishments can be dished out. Certainly some of the PI punishments are not appropriate and wouldn't achieve what we're all after anyway, which is the re-intergration of Delphi into Kashmir.

 

[Shaitan]

There's an easier way to stop the madness. Go to the Delphi thread and vote against the secession.

 

[disorganizer]

Josh: maybe you should talk to the delphi citizens? talking to people helps alot. i know its hard bargain for you going down into the dirty streets talking to citizens, but you will have to do this to get them vote against it. as soon as the single mayority of my citizens voted against, i will rejoin delphi to kashmir ;-P

 

[Eklektikos]

If you want a roleplay PI, fine... but don't try to use the official PI procedures, because the list of available punishments is predefined in the CoS and roleplay-style punishments aren't on the menu. Unless someone has actually infringed on the playing of the demogame they should not be subject to one of the serious punishments a true PI can lead to.

I personally have no particular desire to be involved in the roleplay aspects of the game, but would be happy to mete out sentences such as the freezing of Disorganizer's Apolytonian banana assets until he relinquishes his claim to Delphi County, if that's what you want.

 

[disorganizer]

i second josh on his inquiry for a warning letter ;-P@judical branch
but i also second shaitan in having josh go to the delphi citizens and inquire them. btw. i will only accept delphi citizen to vote in the ballot living there for at least 2 weeks.

elek:
sorry to fall in your back, but i declared independance from the province of kashmir. but your idea would have suited better of course... just didnt think of it in time :-(

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by disorganizer
btw. i will only accept delphi citizen to vote in the ballot living there for at least 2 weeks.

Sorry, dis. This is an illegal stipulation. According to our laws "All citizens have the right to vote in all public polls". Don't make me lauch a PI on you.

 

[disorganizer]

Well, its not a public poll, its a private poll. And it is informational. So no rules apply as our rules only apply on official binding polls

 

[disorganizer]

btw: it isnt a poll, its a ballot as it is openly voted on.

 

[Almightyjosh]

Of the citizens listed a living in Delphi, only 2 have voiced an opinion on this issue. Disorganiser for, Chris85 against. In fact, only disorganiser is seen to be supporting the break away, exept for trader/warrior who I think lives near by and said, "oh, yay, a revolution", hardly a through endorsement of seperatism. Tell me Disorganiser, if I wanted to get down and dirty with the citizens, which ones would I talk to? None of the Delphi citizens who are currently silent on the issue have posted ANYTHING in the demogame for over a month, more in ome cases. Is there anyone but you living in Delphi? Gonna be hard to get citizens to vote against the idea if you will only accept votes from citizens that don't really exist. I would also note that apart from disorganiser, Toasty (the much maligned Governor of Kashmir) has been the most active participant in Delphi discussions and the only other person regularly vocing constructive opinions. Also, EVERY citizen not in Delphi (ie everyone but Dis) has expressed the opinion that the breakaway is a bad idea.

WHO LIVES IN DELPHI?? WHO HAS VOTED FOR THE REBELLION? WHO???????

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Further Information

In response to disorganizer's query. The two individuals who brought the charges have not come forward publically. I have forwarded their requests to Shaitan, so he can verify that the requests were made.

RECOMMENDED FINDING OF NO MERIT

Having fulfilled my duty as Judge Advocate, and having posted a discussion thread and investigation as required of me within our laws, I now ask for a vote on dismissal of the charges as allowed to me via Code of Laws, Section E, Point 6.e.

This vote is among Judiciary members only, and the required hurdle is unanimous consent.

My reasoning is simple. The game is over, and everyone is role playing hypotheticals even outside of this specific issue. This is not the only area where we could have conflicts. While disorganizers timing is troublesome, in that I believe he made these announcements prior to the actual end of the game, there is already wide spread role playing regarding interdepartmental wars, and such involving many citizens.

If the members of the citizenry wish to conduct a mock trial/investigation into this matter and others, I encourage all of you to proceed with that.

This process is intended for only actual game conflict issues. Given that the game is now complete as Phoenatica, then I feel this investigation has NO MERIT.

One final note, the two individuals who brought this request were doing so from a very serious standpoint, and with well founded arguments.

I find that their concerns would have great merit were the game in progress. This recommendation of dismissal should not be taken as approval of the behavior, and should I be fortunate enough to occupy this office in the next game, I would aggressively prosecute a case of this nature in the game itself.

JUDICIARY MEMBERS, PLEASE POST YOUR VOTES IN THIS THREAD.

Judge Advocate votes NO MERIT

Bill
Judge Advocate of Phoenatica

 

[Eklektikos]

Public Defender votes no merit