Pushing and begging

Gliese 581

Your average civ junkie
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Oct 11, 2007
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I've started to use more diplomacy options lately but I feel like I'm still in the dark alot of the time in some areas. This thread is about begging stuff from the AI or demanding tribute, and AI personality.
Which leaders do you feel are generous and which are not? Which are pushovers and which would rather die than give in to threats? I suppose there might be no difference between leaders here really, I just don't have much experience with this kind of thing. It seems like most any leader will give you really backward techs if you're on friendly status with them.
Sitting Bull recently gave me monotheism around the time when he was researching civil service and guilds etc., but then, he seems like the peace-lovin' smokey type if you know what I mean, although he did threaten me twice in the early game..
So what are your experiences here, any nice stories out there?
 
I also feel like I lack in this part of the game. Major friendly status with Mansa who was my vassal, his choice, and still no free money.

Would like to know how others go about it.
 
They will sometimes give you cheap techs or ressorces when they are friendly and you ask for it nicely. They will also give in to demands when you are wastly superior in power. I have yet to see a AI giving me a post renaissance tech - it seems the techs are just too expensive - they refuse to give it away even when they beaten down to virtually zero power.

I.G. they are only willing to give you something, if they know, that otherwise you could take it from they cold dead bodys. And once i am in this position, i prefer the later option to asking nicely.

I wonder if the AI keeps track ot the Diplomatic Stance the Human has towards them... Like: If they ask for something and i refuse, they give me -1 for refusing... Is the AI 'aware', that refusing my demand it gets those -1 as well ?! I guess not.
 
Techs are expensive.
Don't even try to beg for them.
But some money, or some gpt or some free resource can be gotten from most (I wanted to say all, but I'm unsure) AIs.

What I usually do :
as soon as an AI is pleased with me (some nice stories to follow), I beg all their gold (up to 250, I never ask for more).
I then try to beg every 20 turns. Often I forget and beg after 25 or 30 turns.
This way, I can often make 700+ gold every 20 turns. Enough to run 100% science for the early game, or for the whole game at low levels.
If the pleased or better AIs have no gold to offer, I ask them for all their gpt (up to 10, I never ask for more).
If the pleased or better AIs have no gold and no gold per turn, I sometimes beg a free resource (Free health, or free happiness :king:).
If they have nothing of the totally free kind, I try to trade them something, so that they have gold again, then come back begging.

Nice story one :
- genghis kahn threatens me to atack if I don't give him 110 gold. He's cautious.
- I give in. Now he is pleased.
- I beg the pleased genghis for 110 gold. He hands them to me with a smile.
conclusion : now he's pleased + I'm sure he won't attack for a few turns. All this for exactly 0 cost.

Nice story 2 :
- 1 AI (can't remember which) was pleased with me but completely broke. He however had a tech I didn't. I traded his tech for a lesser one + a pile of gold.
- I then asked him to give me money. More than I gave him, in fact :).
 
Those are cool stories Cabert :D

But its something i cant bring me to do... Unfortunately...

Seeing Mansa - who just a couple of turns ago refused to give me outdated Horseback Ridding to backfil - now comes asking for Optics, i get angry, and decide that i would rather see him dead than pleased :D

Why is it i allways have to worry about them beiing pleased with me, while they never give even a virtual 'thought' to: "Uhm... These Human Players are rally mean, perhaps i should be nice to him, and AT LEAST stop trading with his enemy when he asks me for it"

ARGHHH!!!! Just posting it made me angry [pissed] I think i am going to start a game and Axerush someone right now :mwaha:
 
Techs are expensive.
Don't even try to beg for them.
But some money, or some gpt or some free resource can be gotten from most (I wanted to say all, but I'm unsure) AIs.

In one of my Noble walkthroughs, Joao asked me for a tech while at cautious. I gave it to him and he bumped up to Pleased. After I switched civics and he was Friendly, I asked him for Calendar and he gave it to me.

I think civs are more likely to give you techs if you gave them one earlier.
 
In one of my Noble walkthroughs, Joao asked me for a tech while at cautious. I gave it to him and he bumped up to Pleased. After I switched civics and he was Friendly, I asked him for Calendar and he gave it to me.

I think civs are more likely to give you techs if you gave them one earlier.
true
but it's so hard to guess what they're willing to give that I end up going for the safe thing.
Remember that you can beg as often as you want but, they won't give before they have forgotten the last time you asked (whether they gave or not).
there is a 5% chance per turn AFAIK.

Friendly AIs give more willingly IMHO, but I did not check the code for this.
 
Some nice input here. :) At what level of difficulty do you usually get the gold-begging to work cabert?

Orion071: I was thinking along the same lines about the AI being more willing if you've complied with their pushing and begging before. I gave in to Sitting Bull's threats both times in the example I made in my first post. I "had enough on my hands" right then and the demands were for spare resources only.
I usually comply with the AI unless I'm in a totally dominant position vs them, even if they beg for techs and stuff, as long as it's not going to threaten me militarily or prevent me from multi-trading a new tech.
Now, since Sitting Bull is friendly with me and have been peacefull the whole game with me as the only one in contact with his borders on a four civ -continent, while I've been warmongering, I'm in a position to soon launch a crushing attack on him. :D
 
I was looking into the SDK to figure this out but it looks complicated.. does it have to do with the AI_considerOffer function?

Also, does the 20 turns scale with game speed?
 
Some nice input here. :) At what level of difficulty do you usually get the gold-begging to work cabert?

Orion071: I was thinking along the same lines about the AI being more willing if you've complied with their pushing and begging before. I gave in to Sitting Bull's threats both times in the example I made in my first post. I "had enough on my hands" right then and the demands were for spare resources only.
I usually comply with the AI unless I'm in a totally dominant position vs them, even if they beg for techs and stuff, as long as it's not going to threaten me militarily or prevent me from multi-trading a new tech.
Now, since Sitting Bull is friendly with me and have been peacefull the whole game with me as the only one in contact with his borders on a four civ -continent, while I've been warmongering, I'm in a position to soon launch a crushing attack on him. :D

any level
I have the feeling it got harder with the latest BtS patch (even if you're not playing BtS!)
 
The thing that annoys me is that, at Cautious and below, you often can't make certain demands at all. I often want to demand a tech just to get the negative diplomacy hit -- useful if you want to provoke a weak civ into war, but don't want to antagonize his/her powerful friends -- but the software won't let you do it. It would be better if it allowed you to make the demand anyway if you decide to ignore the red lettering of the requests that are certain to fail.
 
For the past few days I have been digging deep into the code to find some answers. I still don't understand it 100% as there are many many functions in the SDK that have to do with trades and grants but here are some key insights:

1. FREQUENCY of grants: Like Cabert pointed out, there's a 5% chance every turn that the AI will "forget" about your request/demand. Using simple probability, this means that if you wait 20 turns, there's a 64% chance that they will have forgotten. Wait 30 turns and this goes up to an almost 80% chance, or 45 turns for 90%. So it's probably most reasonable to wait 30-40 turns between requests for help to have a decent chance. See below for more details.

Spoiler :
Whenever you ask the AI for a grant, their counter for demands/grants (which is the same counter for both demands & grants) goes up by 1. If they have already granted you something in the past, they will automatically reject all consequent requests until they "forget" it and the counter goes back to zero. Every request/demand adds to the counter so it's not a good idea to ask again and again if they refuse, as this will do nothing but increase the time it takes for the AI to forget. The chances of them forgetting increases with diminishing returns:

1 turn...... 5% chance they forget
5 turns..... 23%
10 turns ... 40%
15 turns ... 54%
20 turns ... 64%
25 turns ... 72%
30 turns ... 79%
35 turns ... 83%
40 turns ... 87%
45 turns ... 90%
50 turns ... 92%
60 turns ... 95%
.
.
.
100 turns .. 99.4%


2. MAGNITUDE of grants: If the first condition is satisfied - you either have never made a request/demand or enough turns passed and the AI forgot about it - then the AI will look at the value of the gift you're asking for and determine if you a "worth" it by comparing it to a threshold.

- Each turn from the moment you meet an AI, you accumulate more points towards this threshold which means that if you wait longer, you can ask for bigger value items. (and avoid getting auto-declined by not giving the AI enough time to forget)

- The threshold is higher if you are a "land target", meaning the AI will agree to bigger gifts if you share borders. (or on the same continent?)

- There's also power scaling: if the AI is more powerful than you, you are eligible for lower value gifts, and vice versa

- AI keeps track of any past gifts they gave you and discounts these - meaning, if you asked for something and got it but used almost all your points, you start from scratch and have to wait a while to accumulate points. Note that any gifts that YOU give to the AI does NOT earn you more points - it only makes the AI like you better. (e.g. +4 "our trade relations have been fair & fortright)

More details below.

Spoiler :

Starting from the turn you meet an AI for the first time, you accumulate "points" towards possible grants. (You start with a 50 pts base) There's a *2 default multiplier, and an additional *3 multiplier if you are a "land target". Next, it's scaled by your team powers, yours divided by the AI's. Finally, all past grants the AI gave you are subtracted. These points become your final threshold. Now, the AI converts the item you're asking for (e.g. gold, tech) into these points and checks to see if it's below the threshold. If it's below, they're happy to help you out. If it's above, then you get a rejection and the request/demand counter goes up by 1.

I am not familiar with converting techs into these value points, but in the case of gold, 2pts = 1 gold (unless the AI is in financial trouble which means 3pts = 1 gold). This means that, if we were of equal power to the AI and not a land target, we accumulate 1 gold each turn towards our potential grant. (the *2 multiplier cancels out the gold conversion) There's also the 50 base but if we use this up in our first grant, it'll be subtracted next time.

From CvPlayerAI::AI_considerOffer function:

Code:
iThreshold = (GET_TEAM(getTeam()).AI_getHasMetCounter(GET_PLAYER(ePlayer).getTeam()) + 50);

		iThreshold *= 2;

		if (GET_TEAM(GET_PLAYER(ePlayer).getTeam()).AI_isLandTarget(getTeam()))
		{
			iThreshold *= 3;
		}

		iThreshold *= (GET_TEAM(GET_PLAYER(ePlayer).getTeam()).getPower(false) + 100);
		iThreshold /= (GET_TEAM(getTeam()).getPower(false) + 100);

		iThreshold -= GET_PLAYER(ePlayer).AI_getPeacetimeGrantValue(getID());

		return (iOurValue < iThreshold);



3. There is no distinction between Pleased or Friendly attitudes or the magnitude of the attitude value - as long as the AI is Pleased or better, same rules apply. (i.e. a friendly AI with +20 attitude towards you will not grant you gifts more often or of higher value)

4. There is no distinction between different AI types. (i.e. Gandhi is not more likely to accept your grant requests than Tokugawa, all else being equal) It might change how much they value techs though.

5. Repeating from above - any gifts that YOU give to the AI does NOT mean you will get bigger gifts yourself - it only makes the AI like you better. (e.g. +4 "our trade relations have been fair & fortright)

6. Demanding tribute follows the exact same criteria as asking for gifts, except that
a) It happens when the AI is cautious or below. As a result you'll get a -1 penalty "You made an arrogant demand" (unless you're bullying Gandhi who doesn't care)
b) If the AI's power is >1.33 of your power, they will auto-reject. (Note that this is NOT done when you ask for gifts. They will use the power ratings to scale the value but not aut0-reject if you're weak)

The bottom line is, it is smart to ask for gifts periodically - at least for some spare gold - because if you don't, then you're not taking advantage of it. I'm finding it useful to set up reminders every 40 turns from asking for a favor so I remember to ask again. (Civ4alerts in BUG mod is great for that) But it is NOT a loss at all not to ask for a long time and then ask 100 turns later because you can ask for something of more value. If they reject, just wait 30-40 turns and ask for something smaller. Happy gift receiving! :)
 
Excellent write up Oedali. I will be setting my alerts from now on and asking for some gold at least.
 
Techs are expensive.
Don't even try to beg for them.
But some money, or some gpt or some free resource can be gotten from most (I wanted to say all, but I'm unsure) AIs.

What I usually do :
as soon as an AI is pleased with me (some nice stories to follow), I beg all their gold (up to 250, I never ask for more).
I then try to beg every 20 turns. Often I forget and beg after 25 or 30 turns.
This way, I can often make 700+ gold every 20 turns. Enough to run 100% science for the early game, or for the whole game at low levels.
If the pleased or better AIs have no gold to offer, I ask them for all their gpt (up to 10, I never ask for more).
If the pleased or better AIs have no gold and no gold per turn, I sometimes beg a free resource (Free health, or free happiness :king:).
If they have nothing of the totally free kind, I try to trade them something, so that they have gold again, then come back begging.

Nice story one :
- genghis kahn threatens me to atack if I don't give him 110 gold. He's cautious.
- I give in. Now he is pleased.
- I beg the pleased genghis for 110 gold. He hands them to me with a smile.
conclusion : now he's pleased + I'm sure he won't attack for a few turns. All this for exactly 0 cost.

Nice story 2 :
- 1 AI (can't remember which) was pleased with me but completely broke. He however had a tech I didn't. I traded his tech for a lesser one + a pile of gold.
- I then asked him to give me money. More than I gave him, in fact :).

And I thought I had an interesting day.

I'm pinned between Isabel & Justinian, who are opposite religions from each other.

Weird case #1:
I ask Isabella to stop trading with Justinian, and her response is something like "Oh no, we couldn't betray our close friends..."

Weirder case #2:
So then I ask her to go to war against Justinian instead, and her response is "Sure thing!"

:crazyeye:
 
Weird case #1:
I ask Isabella to stop trading with Justinian, and her response is something like "Oh no, we couldn't betray our close friends..."

Weirder case #2:
So then I ask her to go to war against Justinian instead, and her response is "Sure thing!"

You couldn't tell that Isabella was being sarcastic when she called Justinian her friend? ;)
 
And I thought I had an interesting day.

I'm pinned between Isabel & Justinian, who are opposite religions from each other.

Weird case #1:
I ask Isabella to stop trading with Justinian, and her response is something like "Oh no, we couldn't betray our close friends..."

Weirder case #2:
So then I ask her to go to war against Justinian instead, and her response is "Sure thing!"

:crazyeye:

Yeah, interestingly many of the AI's are coded to be more reluctant to stop trading with someone than declaring war. For example, an extreme case is Mansa who will go to war for you if he's at least cautious towards you, and even if he's pleased towards the AI you want him to war with. (as long you pay him enough gold, of course) So he likes you less than his 'friend' but he'll backstab him for the right money. If you ask him to refuse any of his trades, however, he needs to be no less than friendly towards you, and furious against the other AI.. even if he's annoyed toward them he will refuse saying "We couldn't betray our close friends!" So 'friends' is used loosely indeed, I agree Isabella was being sarcastic. :)
 
Oedali--is there anything in there about the wealth of Civs affecting when they will gift you money from begging? Many times, it seems like the wealthier they get, the stingier they get. A Civ might have 70 gold, and they'll be willing to cough it all up for nothing. Conversely, the same Civ sometime down the road, still Pleased or Friendly, might have thousands of gold and won't spare anything. It also seems like there's a certain point late in the game where they just cut off charity altogether.
 
I haven't seen anything that suggests that. However, even though civs make more money late game and hold bigger gold reserves, the size of gifts do NOT get bigger. So relatively speaking yes they are stingier. Example: a civ gives you 70 gold every 40 turns when you beg early game even if it's all the money they have. In the 1700 ADs they still would give you 70 gold every 40 turns when you beg, even if they have 600 g sitting in their coffers.
 
If it's below, they're happy to help you out. If it's above, then you get a rejection and the request/demand counter goes up by 1.

How do you handle this demand/request counter? If the AI has 200 gold in it's treasury should I ask for 200g then 190g then 180g if they fail or should i start more reasonable like 50g? What is a good begging practice because all i do is demand stuff from AIs I am more powerful than. I'd hate to beg for 90g and in reality i could've gotten 120g. I never beg so i'm curious.

EDIT: just saw this thread was 2 years old :( Can't figure out how to delete this post so I put it in the newer thread instead.
 
Well, at least you brought attention to this nice piece of info. :) Your answer is already there in the thread: make a reasonable request and don't come back for another 30 turns or so. ;)
 
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