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Pyramids break the game?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by QwertyKey, Aug 26, 2009.

  1. QwertyKey

    QwertyKey Warlord

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    I was playing a game where I was very aggressive, and I took over a civilization with the Pyramids already built. I at this point realized I could expand to an insane degree, with putting 1 military unit in each city. I did this quickly, and amassed up something like 40 cities. Eventually my units striked off, but I was left with 1 unit in each city to defend while still having a loss of hundreds of gold a turn, with 0 gold. Normally you would expect this to kill research and eventually the civilization gets taken over. I however, was able to switch to representation, and have many scientist (where there were library) and citizen specialists. This allowed me to have greater research than anyone else. By the time I had built enough markets, courthouses, etc to get the civilization to get into the plus, I had a huge tech lead.

    I'm sure someone noticed this before, and possibly posted it here, but I haven't seen this. Anyone have any input on this?
     
  2. Badtz Maru

    Badtz Maru King

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    What difficulty/map settings were you on? I think it would be pretty hard to expand that far and still recover, even with Representation. With only one unit per city, I'm surprised that no AI attacked you.

    In my opinion, the Pyramids are a pretty good wonder, but you pay a high price for them. They are really too expensive to be worth what you get unless you have stone, and even with stone it's risky trying to build them, as I'm frequently beaten to them by the AI, even on Warlord. Getting Representation early is nice, but Representation is on the path to Liberalism so if you skip the Pyramids and use the resources for building your empire, you're going to get it before long if you are playing smart.
     
  3. Xellos-_^

    Xellos-_^ Prince

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    no offense but prince or higher level would eat you for lunch if you economy had collaspe that much.
     
  4. Virtual Alex

    Virtual Alex King

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    This really depends on difficulty.

    Pyramids definitely does not break the game on any difficulty I have ever played. How is there even a library in every city you have?
     
  5. Ignorant Teacher

    Ignorant Teacher Emperor

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    I was playing a game where I was very cautious, and I only had 3 tiny cities, but I built the Apostolic Palace in a religion only I had. I at this point realized I could expand my religion to an insane degree, with putting 1 missionary in each civ plus a lot in my BFF's civ. I did this quickly, and amassed up something like 10 missionaries. Eventually the other civs got insanely huge, but I was left alone while still having good relations with all my direct neighbors, with 0 diplo negative points, but with Monte in a different religion in the other side of the continent. Normally you would expect this to kill research and eventually the civilization gets taken over. I however, was able to call the diplo win vote, and have many votes (where there was friendship). This allowed me to win the game. By the time Monte's stack showed up, I saw the message "Ignorant Teacher has won a Diplomatic Victory".

    I'm sure someone noticed this before, and possibly posted it here, but I haven't seen this. Anyone have any input on this?
     
  6. QwertyKey

    QwertyKey Warlord

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    This was on Emperor with the giant earth map mod. I kept fairly good relations with most civs, giving techs and such when requested most of the time. As well 40-50 axemen is a good army, even if they're stationary. AI civs could have taken me over, but they didn't.

    I spent a few hundred turns in economic failure, but still advancing technology extrememly fast during that time.
     
  7. aday

    aday Warlord

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    That's pretty cool, I'd kinda like to play a game like that sometime. I actually didn't know that strikes would leave one defender in each city, I assumed they would continue until all units were gone.

    If you had 40-50 cities with one Axeman in each, and you are still teching, and you are playing diplomacy even moderately well, it's not at all hard to see how you could avoid an attack.

    It's possible that the game designers didn't intend for you to be able to play this way, but I wouldn't call it gamebreaking. Mainly because saying that is going to get you some obnoxiously snarky responses...
     
  8. binhthuy71

    binhthuy71 Emperor

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    The early-game opportunity cost for building the Pyramids is huge for non-Ind civs or those without stone. The 500 hammers required under those circumstances would build you 5 Settlers, or 14 Axes, or 20 Archers, or 8 Granaries, etc.
    The fact that you were able to conquer the civ that built the Pyramids may have been in part due to their spending their resources on them rather than on other things. Had you built the Pyramids I'd imagine a different outcome.
     
  9. sakhmet

    sakhmet Chieftain

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    Hah, someone's yanking (correctly spelled?) our tail.
     
  10. blitzkrieg1980

    blitzkrieg1980 Octobrist

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    @Badtz Maru
    With stone, you shouldn't be losing 'Mids to AI on Warlord level. You probably started building them too late. I'm usually able to grab the 'Mids on Prince with IND and no stone (IE only 50% boost to production) but with stone, unless you don't have any production, 'Mids should be almost guaranteed on warlord (unless you start them close to the ADs or are up against a couple IND leaders who also have stone).

    As to the original post, I only see Pyramids as OP on lower difficulty levels and food heavy maps where you can abuse representation/caste system. 1 city running 6-10 scientists and another 4-5 cities running 3-6 scientists is a whole lotta research in Rep in the early game. Add in all the GS you'll pop and any other cottage/trade income you can add in (even with a low slider) and you'll be facing longbows/knights with rifles/cannons (or even Infantry/cannons).
     
  11. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    I've only posted >10 or so of these kinds of wins on the forum, the most recent being in the LHC Stalin thread at deity ----> a game you also played. Not only do I show the victory but also how I accumulated votes with those who voted me winner.

    Edit: Mids are not a magic wonder, and on difficulties where you struggle can *reduce* your research rather than improve it if you build them in bad situations.

    You can rep your way through the necessary tech tree in strike, but that only works if you have enough tile improvements to actually run more than 1 scientist/city (or more typically citizens in newer cities). Since workers are killed by strike too, this can get pretty inefficient.
     
  12. Ignorant Teacher

    Ignorant Teacher Emperor

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    I'm not questioning the viability of such a strategy, I have done it a couple of times myself. As I also know the Pyramids can save your game in a situation as the OP described. I can't remember doing anything similar, but I can see it working. The thing is that I find it weird to say this or that is game breaking or overpowered, especially having seen and been in situations where the same game breaking wonders/units/tactics were employed and resulted in defeat. IMO, there's no such a thing as overpowered in Civ 4 (with the possible exception of DR, as Silu pointed in the other thread :D).

    If I play an MP game against you, I won't last much. Would it be fair if I said afterwards "Holkans are overpowered" because I saw you using them?
     
  13. Silu

    Silu Deity

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    AP does enable a player to pull a win out of his backside like no other strategy can do. Maybe not flat out overpowered, but a bit same as playing Marathon/Raging Barbs and beelining GW. In any case it's certainly not in the same league as DR :rolleyes: .

    Case in point: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=311820 (though I guess no one really needed an example :lol: )
     
  14. Chiyochan

    Chiyochan King

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    he might have had caste
     
  15. Badtz Maru

    Badtz Maru King

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    I don't always lose them on Warlord, but I have lost them more than once, which is more often than most of the other wonders I usually shoot for. I don't beeline Masonry nor start the Pyramids ASAP every time, though. I probably could get them every time if I tried like I would for a must-have wonder on harder difficulties.
     
  16. jauggy

    jauggy Warlord

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    On the thread you linked to, does that strategy still work or has it been patched?
     
  17. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    MP is completely different than SP, I'd have no guarantee of winning, especially with limited experience (though I have some).

    I'd definitely be using skirmishers over holkans though :p. If people allow unrestricted leaders, they better be native america, persia, or inca, else they're about to eat CHA/PRO skirmishers (!). I've killed people with that outright, but choking is just as effective. Archers are very bad against skirmishers with equal promos. If the skirms have cover, it's a garbage battle. Axes don't do great against skirmishers and spears lose more than they win, thanks to starting behind by 1-2 first strikes. Again, with PRO abuse you can add shock, and then it starts getting stupid...can they get iron before you sent 8 into their territory? They better...
     
  18. Ignorant Teacher

    Ignorant Teacher Emperor

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    Depending on the terrain, Jaguars can be a pain to Skirmishers. With barracks and CHA, Woods III is 1xp away. But you're right, Skirmishers are really hard to dislodge.
     
  19. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    For cost, the jags come out way behind even then. Each skirmisher costs a fraction of the hammers a jag costs, and they'll be ahead whenever they're on hills. Shock puts them very close to even odds when defending against W III jags, and very close odds isn't something the guy with more expensive units wants. Still, at least they don't need resources.

    Plain AGG cover swords can be a bit troublesome too though.
     

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