Queer SAT problems

Exsanguination

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1) Three numbers are considered a "prime set" if their sum is a prime number. If 31, -8, and n are a prime set, what is the least possible value of n?

Solution: ETS says the answer is 6, because 31 + -8 + 6 = 29, a prime number. HOWEVER, that is not the "least possible value n". If n=0, the result is 23. A prime number? As far as I know!

Nowhere in the problem did it say positive integers, or greater than 0, so 0 is a valid answer (btw it was a grid-in).

2)



PN and OM are line segments.

Which value is greater? A) g+h B) i+j

Solution: Assuming ray l is at 90 degrees (which it LOOKS like), it is obvious that g+h=i+j (one of the possible answers). However, ETS says it "cannot be determined from the info given". Why? We don't know that ray l is at 90 degrees. Fair enough.

BUT - in several earlier problems involving given geometric figures, the answer keys say that "it LOOKS like they are equal/not equal, so assume so". This is the way I have always known the SAT to be (unless noted otherwise). Another infamous problem like this involves the area of a WHAT APPEARS TO BE a diamond is made into two triangles, where two sides of one of the triangles is given. If you ASSUME the triangles are congruent, then the problem is trivial. However, not knowing so, it requries advanced trig beyond HS to prove their similarity.

(this was a quant comp)

I'm in a hurry, so I can't explain much further other than that I found these in a SAT-prep book. Would someone like to shed light on to how the ETS maybe right (because thousands of HSers are being told they are wrong when they are RIGHT)? I find this ridiculous (esp. the first one). The SAT takes advantage of those who are higher-learned by not giving adequate info, sothose who know beyond what they need get confused because the SAT does not adequately define itself.

I'll be back in a bit with some more insight.

--Ex
 
Wouldn't #1 be unsolvable because you could go negative? Why stop at zero?
 
Why wouldn't n be equal to -21 which gets you the smallest prime, namely 2?
 
I'm doing the Israeli SATs on tuesday. :/

In geometry the only thing you can assume from the picture is whether a line is straight or not. Angles, lengths and etc are not necceserally in scale with the picture, and most of the time they intentionaly make it look different than the correct answer.

About question no 1, maybe 0 is not one of the answers so you have to pick 6.
(Assuming the American SATs also use the multiple choice system)
 
Going for Atuda Eli?
 
Originally posted by Eli
About question no 1, maybe 0 is not one of the answers so you have to pick 6.
(Assuming the American SATs also use the multiple choice system)

It doesn't make sense to do it - the right answer MUST be a choice. A prep book should prepare you to the test, but since he doesn't understand what's wrong the prep book is somehow wrong.
 
Originally posted by Eli
About question no 1, maybe 0 is not one of the answers so you have to pick 6.
(Assuming the American SATs also use the multiple choice system)
If that's the case they probably mean the "least possible value n out of those given", which would be okay I think.
If it's not the case the question is indeed stupid, nothing says that n is an element of the natural numbers or even the natural numbers without 0 (depending on how you define it).
If n can be negative that would lead to a completely different result.

The second question (with the geometric figure) is just stupid, what sense is there in assuming things from figures... :D

Oh yeah, and good luck to you all. :)
 
Originally posted by IceBlaZe
Going for Atuda Eli?

Probably.

I'll make a shot at Talpiot too, though i'm not counting on it.

It doesn't make sense to do it - the right answer MUST be a choice.

Nope, at least not here.

I agree that in this specific question it's problematic, but sometimes there are numerous correct answers and only one of them is among the 4 options.
 
Originally posted by Hitro

If n can be negative that would lead to a completely different result.


Yes!!! I was really hoping I would be backed up by Mr. Math. It's been a while since I took a math class or the SATs, and I was hoping I wasn't that rusty.

[dance] Iam cool [dance] I am cool [dance]



:splat: Better now. Sorry about that.
 
Originally posted by knowltok2
[dance] Iam cool [dance] I am cool [dance]



:splat: Better now. Sorry about that.
Well, you don't really think that's a sufficient apology, do you?

And I'm certainly not Mr. Math. :D
 
Originally posted by Hitro

Well, you don't really think that's a sufficient apology, do you?

And I'm certainly not Mr. Math. :D


I got hit on the head by a fish. Yes I do think that is a sufficient appology. After all, all I did was dance around and say I was cool. For all you know, I am cool. So what crime am I guilty of?

As for you being Mr. Math, you are to me. You're in college as a math major. Despite what this may say about your sanity, it speaks highly of your abilities with numbers as compared to mine. Now I was always decent at math but I never took it further than the calculus needed for my Business degree. So this means that while I can make numbers with $ signs before them dance, my skills fall a little short when we are talking about more pure math. Especially in relation to someone devoting years of the collegiate studies specifically to math.

Amazing. I've talked you up, freely granted that your skills in math are better than mine, and still somehow I feel sorry for you. Hang in there Hitro, I'm pulling for you. :)
 
Originally posted by knowltok2
I got hit on the head by a fish. Yes I do think that is a sufficient appology. After all, all I did was dance around and say I was cool. For all you know, I am cool. So what crime am I guilty of?
Well...yes...that's true.
I have to admit that this argumentation convinces me completely. Tell that to Homie. ;)
Amazing. I've talked you up, freely granted that your skills in math are better than mine, and still somehow I feel sorry for you. Hang in there Hitro, I'm pulling for you. :)
I love you :love:
 
Originally posted by Hitro

Well...yes...that's true.
I have to admit that this argumentation convinces me completely. Tell that to Homie. ;)

Who is this Homie and what do I need to convince him of?


I love you :love:

Erm well, I uh, love you to, uh, I guess.

[Manly voice] Errgg. Grunt. How about that Hamburg United (or some appropriate sports team. ;))? Arrrr. Grunt :D [/Manly voice]
 
Originally posted by knowltok2
Who is this Homie and what do I need to convince him of?
:p
As if you hadn't posted in his thread, tss...
Errgg. Grunt. How about that Hamburg United (or some appropriate sports team.
Hamburg United? What the...?
What's the problem, my dear?
 
Originally posted by Hitro
As if you hadn't posted in his thread, tss...

Oh, you mean that Homie. Well, If you mean his thread about discussion, I beleive I have posted in it in quite a convincing fashion. I have even been supported by fellow posters. I consider this Homie convinced. My work here is done.


Hamburg United? What the...?
What's the problem, my dear?

You know us Americans don't know anything about your Football teams. Even if we know the game, your teams are a mystery to us. I just picked a city in Germany and put the word united after it cause apparently there are a lot of 'united' teams in that big penninsula you call a continent. Maybe its a British thing. Ah well, British, German, what's the difference? ;)

What's this 'my dear' business anyway? :blush:


Oh well, time to leave for the day and pack up for a weekend getaway with the wife. Just PM me any replies since there is no way a thread on math will still be current when I get back.

Oh yeah, on topic, 1=3. Seriously. I read it on the internet!
 
Originally posted by Eli
About question no 1, maybe 0 is not one of the answers so you have to pick 6.
(Assuming the American SATs also use the multiple choice system)

Allow me to quote myself :D:

(btw it was a grid-in)

If you don't know what that is, its a question where you have to find the answer yourself and write in ona grid.

As for going negative, I meant to mention that but it slipped my mind. Like I said, I was in a hurry.

This is what I mean by the SAT is the dumbest test ever formulated :rolleyes:. However, its not the math portion that I condemn so much (I only used math examples because they can be PROVEN). I think ANY test that administers a "reading portion" is biased and completely invalid. ETS does not test a student's ability to reason or comprehend, it tests a student's ability to think like the qeustion-writers. It complete bulls***. I have nothing against setnence completions or analogies, as definitions are proveable by checking a dictionary. Reading is NOT proveable, it is subject to opinion and personal experience. If I were allowed to argue with an ETS question-writer, I could argue ANY (thats right, ANY) reading question could have more than one sensible answer. There is no BEST answer, only right answerS.

And what pisses me off is that I'm a 4.0 student who takes mostly college courses, but since I can't think like ETS I'll be penalized in the college race. Like I said, the SAT works AGAINST people who have 'superior' knowledge of math. I am taking calculus and trig, two subjects that are NOT tested on the SAT. However, there are many problems on the SAT that can be solved using advanced trig and/or calculus (and thusly proen), but since the SAT does not assume the test-taker has this knowledge, any "not answerable" choice must be a guess on that student's part. The geometry questions are a perfect example.

Furthermore, allow me to quote the SAT's exact instructions on the MC math section:

"They [the figures] are drawn as accurately as possible EXCEPT when it is stated in a specific problem that the figure is not drawn to scale."

So are we to assume this or not? I say its time ETS makes up its mind. And wait, there's more. The new, 2005 SAT promises more reading, a new writing portion, and the addition of trig to the math section. Mmmm... more subjectivity, why not? It is just more bulls***. If I had any position of power in the education system I'd eradicate the SAT entirely and make a new test that tested things that SHOULD be tested: math, and vocabulary (in the form of analogies and sentence completions) - with more fill-in-the-blanks than MCs.

I am done.

--Ex
 
I maxed out on SAT math by assuming anything that looked stupid, was in fact stupid. That is an oversimplification of the problem, which is usually more complex than it looks to the test writer. Hence, is 6 is the lowest number given that results in a prime set, then it is the right answer for purposes of the stupid little question. I have heard that if a wrong answer scores much higher than average, the question will be passed over in the scoring, on the grounds that is ambiguous. Please remeber these things can only be used once.

J
 
Originally posted by jpowers
Why wouldn't n be equal to -21 which gets you the smallest prime, namely 2?
I think you're right.
Originally posted by knowltok2
Wouldn't #1 be unsolvable because you could go negative? Why stop at zero?
I think you're wrong. :p Since, like jpowers said, isn't 2 the smallest prime number? AFAIK there can't be negative prime numbers, since if you make a prime number negative it will have four factors. For example -2 has four factors: -2, -1, 2, and 1.
 
Originally posted by Exsanguination


Allow me to quote myself :D:



If you don't know what that is, its a question where you have to find the answer yourself and write in ona grid.

As for going negative, I meant to mention that but it slipped my mind. Like I said, I was in a hurry.

This is what I mean by the SAT is the dumbest test ever formulated :rolleyes:. However, its not the math portion that I condemn so much (I only used math examples because they can be PROVEN). I think ANY test that administers a "reading portion" is biased and completely invalid. ETS does not test a student's ability to reason or comprehend, it tests a student's ability to think like the qeustion-writers. It complete bulls***. I have nothing against setnence completions or analogies, as definitions are proveable by checking a dictionary. Reading is NOT proveable, it is subject to opinion and personal experience. If I were allowed to argue with an ETS question-writer, I could argue ANY (thats right, ANY) reading question could have more than one sensible answer. There is no BEST answer, only right answerS.

And what pisses me off is that I'm a 4.0 student who takes mostly college courses, but since I can't think like ETS I'll be penalized in the college race. Like I said, the SAT works AGAINST people who have 'superior' knowledge of math. I am taking calculus and trig, two subjects that are NOT tested on the SAT. However, there are many problems on the SAT that can be solved using advanced trig and/or calculus (and thusly proen), but since the SAT does not assume the test-taker has this knowledge, any "not answerable" choice must be a guess on that student's part. The geometry questions are a perfect example.

Furthermore, allow me to quote the SAT's exact instructions on the MC math section:

"They [the figures] are drawn as accurately as possible EXCEPT when it is stated in a specific problem that the figure is not drawn to scale."

So are we to assume this or not? I say its time ETS makes up its mind. And wait, there's more. The new, 2005 SAT promises more reading, a new writing portion, and the addition of trig to the math section. Mmmm... more subjectivity, why not? It is just more bulls***. If I had any position of power in the education system I'd eradicate the SAT entirely and make a new test that tested things that SHOULD be tested: math, and vocabulary (in the form of analogies and sentence completions) - with more fill-in-the-blanks than MCs.

I am done.

--Ex

Allow me to quote myself : :D
I'm doing the Israeli SATs on tuesday. :/

It's different here. :)
 
Eli - true :D, but many others were saying similar things. Ad for onejayhawk's comment, the second question is meant to prove your inference wrong. Thats the way I always figured it should be, but as you can see by the second question ETS expects simplicity on one problem, and complexity on another. How are we supposed to know what the hell they are thinking?

btw - When you say you 'maxed out on the SAT', does that mean you got 1600? :goodjob: That's what I'm going for.
 
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